REL ACOUSTICS - NOW IN INDIA

Congrats again !

Hey, u seem to be building a very enviable roster of brands !


Manek

Snv

I am curious, if you were to select components from your brand collection, mix and match them to make a reference system, what would that system constitute ?


Manek

Manek schrieb:

Snv I am curious, if you were to select components from your brand collection, mix and match them to make a reference system, what would that system constitute ? Manek

manek, Great Question. SNV..love to hear your view !

Manek schrieb:

Congrats again ! Hey, u seem to be building a very enviable roster of brands ! Manek

Dear Manek,

Thank you.

This holds so very true for some of my rivals.

Regards
SNV

Arj schrieb:

Manek schrieb: Snv I am curious, if you were to select components from your brand collection, mix and match them to make a reference system, what would that system constitute ? Manek manek, Great Question. SNV..love to hear your view !

Dear Manek & Arj,

Honestly the missing component is a high end amplifier brand which will do justice to the top end of dCS and Sonus Faber.

Maybe sometime in the near future once such a brand is with me, then I could let you know the config from my stable of brands.

Regards
SNV

Hi SNV,

Considered VTL ?

Or is the market too small and niche to be commercially viable for Valve amplification in the Indian market ?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi SNV, Considered VTL ? Or is the market too small and niche to be commercially viable for Valve amplification in the Indian market ?

Dear Amp_Nut,

Thanks for the suggestion. VTL is indeed a good brand.
IMO, it is a difficult job to distribute a high end 'valve' brand.

Honestly, I do have a brand in mind. Once everything falls in place, we shall tie up with them.

Thanks & Regards
SNV

All The BEST, SNV

May Yr Tribe Prosper, for bringing True High End to our shores.

Cheers !

The REL sub woofers have a good reputation. But what I fail to understand is what a subwoofer is good for Keeping in mind problems like phase shifts which have to be controled and corrected, different sonic properties of the sub and the sattelite speakers and different parameters of the sub's amp (if it's an aktive sub woofer) like power, slew rate, rise time, damping factor etc in comparison to the amp that drives the satelite speakers. Perhaps someone can explain this to me why so many hifi enthusiasts opt for a separate subwoofer instaed of going for a speaker system that has an ingrated subwoofer, that means having drivers and cabinet that is large enough to produce those desired low frequencies.

Regards,
Jochen

I 100% agree with you, goolimangala.

A couple of years ago, I had the Sonus Faber Extremas - Bookshelf ( More table top, since they were reasonably large ). Loved the overall sound, and then I began to lust for more Bass.

Tried a Sub. Just would not integrate, and messed up the overall all sound Badly.

I was then using a 50 Watt Valve Amp ( Prima Luna PL-2) and wanted to try more power to the Extrema's LF driver. ( The Extremas are 2 way speakers, with a single inductor as the cross over, and the HF & LF terminated separately on the rear panel). I tried the Flying Mole 100Watt Switching amps (monoblocks). Again a complete No-No.

The Extra Sub and Extra LF Amp just did not integrate.

Perhaps someone can explain this to me why so many hifi enthusiasts opt for a separate subwoofer instaed of going for a speaker system that has an ingrated subwoofer,

Maybe its like a married man looking for more excitement, in a mistress ?

The mistress could provide some thrills not available in-house, but certainly does not integrate in the existing situation..

Jest Kidding...

To me a Sub probably is OK for a Home Theatre system, which is OK with excess bass quantity, and Bass quality is a secondary factor... ? (Sorry HT guys )

I would disagree with both of you (Although very very respectfully and somewhat humbly )

A Full ranger is perhaps the best solution..but the cost of getting one i believe is many time more expensive than adding a sub for almost the same quality of bass although a lot more inconvenient

My understanding is most limited range speakers do not cover the entire musical range as each tone in music has fundamental/subharmonics and harmonics and the entire tonality and timbre of presentaion is about presenting this whole complex picture.

Since Subharmonics go below the fundamental (as per the harmonic progression) a 50 Hz fundamental tone will sound the best only if the 25Hz Subharmonic is represented correctly and a 120Hz will sound good only if both the 60Hz and the 30 hz are represented accurately (of course need not need the same level of resolution).

Now integerating the sub in not easy (Am sure Bhagwan will swear by that one!). it is all about positioning and "Coupling" to the room to ensure that there are minimal phase shifts and choosing the volume so that is is "Just" heard.

If the sub has a High level connector and it is connected with the Speaker cable, then the tonality of the Amp and the cable will be taken into account (also the tone of sub 50 hz is perhaps less colourful than that above)

Choosing the right crossover to a sub is also critical. eg for a sealed box speaker with a 24db rollof, the ideal sub IS a sub with a 24dB crossover. some subs do have variable crossovers..or else you ust choose the right sub.

Finally a sub is perhaps extremely tough to dial in..but once you do the experience is well worthwhile

..And This is obviously not a problem for AN as he has a full ranger

BTW I recently put in a behringer DEQ2496 in a parallel mode with a a digital feed from my transport (i still have a direct connection between the DAc and the Transport). Since it has a frequency display, the amount of sub 40Hz material even in many sedate Jazz tracks was an eyeopener. I wonder how much of the info we are actually missing in most setups !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Maybe its like a married man looking for more excitement, in a mistress ? The mistress could provide some thrills not available in-house, but certainly does not integrate in the existing situation.. Jest Kidding... To me a Sub probably is OK for a Home Theatre system, which is OK with excess bass quantity, and Bass quality is a secondary factor... ? (Sorry HT guys )

Nice example AmpNut . I also agree with you that a sub woofer makes sense in a home theater for those who like these, let's call it "terminator"-effects.

Regards
Jochen

Arj schrieb:

Since Subharmonics go below the fundamental (as per the harmonic progression) a 50 Hz fundamental tone will sound the best only if the 25Hz Subharmonic is represented correctly and a 120Hz will sound good only if both the 60Hz and the 30 hz are represented accurately (of course need not need the same level of resolution).

Agree with you, Arj. But which room can take frequencies of 25 or 30 Hz +/- 2 or 3 db? Most people who have small speakers have small rooms also where low frequencies just overload the room.

Regards
Jochen

Please find below Rels explanation -


high-level accuracy

To ensure no blurring or other sonic degradation to the main system, the solution is to bi-wire the sub-bass system from the power amp. REL sub-bass systems are designed to be connected to the existing power amp's speaker terminals using the gas-tight high-level Neutrik lead. In this way there is no interference or possible corruption of the main signal going to the speakers. By connecting at high level, the sub will receive exactly the same character of bass as the main speakers.
The sub-bass system draws virtually zero current from the power amp because it is a very high impedance load (technically we say it is voltage driven). No harm can come to the sub-bass system whatever the power of the main amp, even a kilowatt can be accommodated with ease.

active ingredients

There is also the substantial benefit of the bass driver in a REL system being driven by its own dedicated bass power amplifier – optimised for that specific driver. It is DC coupled, meaning there are no harmful capacitors in the signal path causing phase problems and limiting its ultimate low frequency performance. Because of this built-in amp, there is no power drain on your main system amplifier. It goes on happily driving your main speakers exactly as before.

it's as simple as ABC....

The sub-bass system needs to have its own independent and variable crossover filtering totally separate from the main system. By use of this variable crossover, the sub-bass system is then brought up beneath the main speakers. This variable crossover filter is unique to REL. We call it the Active Bass Controller or simply ‘ABC’. Its action is limited to the sub-bass system alone and allows the user to set the upper frequency response of the sub-bass system from 22 Hertz (25 Hertz on the "Q" range) up to 96 Hertz (100 Hertz on the "Q" range).

Why choose such a low setting for the ABC? Because this ensures that a REL can be integrated into virtually any system, no matter how large the main speakers. All our models offer tight integration by having at least 24 discrete musically correct steps.
The ABC has both coarse and fine filter controls allowing critical adjustment together with a gain control, which adjusts level to compensate for the lack of boost given to these very low frequencies by your room. This ensures a smooth blending of sound from the main system and the sub-bass system. Thanks to the fine adjustment afforded by the ABC, you will be able to hear (and feel) very deep bass in any sized room with virtually any main system. The imaging of the main system is preserved down to its existing limits. A surprising bonus is that when correctly matched in, imaging and depth appear to improve. There are also spin-off benefits to the way we perceive that sense of "air" around instruments and the feeling of acoustic depth in a recording. These are subtleties that are totally masked if the sub is not correctly integrated into the system.

The fine and course filter regime of the ABC is replaced with even finer digital calibration, which operates in single Hertz steps from 16Hz to 99Hz.

removing room-boom

REL sub-bass systems can be "tuned" to your system and room, whatever your system's capabilities and listening room size. This is of enormous benefit, particularly if like many others, your listening room is not perfect. The REL can be positioned to pressure drive your listening room below its lowest eigentone and ensure that those previously missing or masked frequencies are heard cleanly and clearly, no false emphasis or boom – you control its sound in your system.


Richard Lord: “Every single sub-bass system we make has been individually and very carefully tested, checked and tested over and over at each stage of its production. Not a cheap way to build, but the only way to ensure consistently high quality.”



Sorry guys what you have read above is a cut/paste job from Rel's website.

IMO, the 'key' factors -

1. How you install the sub. This requires a fair amount of time, effort & knowhow. I have witnessed the benefits of a 'correctly' installed sub on several occasions.
2. The design and ability of the sub to reproduce the sub frequencies and to integrate seemlessly.

Regards
SNV

goolimangala schrieb:

The REL sub woofers have a good reputation. But what I fail to understand is what a subwoofer is good for Keeping in mind problems like phase shifts which have to be controled and corrected, different sonic properties of the sub and the sattelite speakers and different parameters of the sub's amp (if it's an aktive sub woofer) like power, slew rate, rise time, damping factor etc in comparison to the amp that drives the satelite speakers. Perhaps someone can explain this to me why so many hifi enthusiasts opt for a separate subwoofer instaed of going for a speaker system that has an ingrated subwoofer, that means having drivers and cabinet that is large enough to produce those desired low frequencies. Regards, Jochen

Dear Jochen,

Perhaps you are yet to experience a well integrated system with a sub. Suggest you keep all the jargon aside and give me a call the next time you are in Mumbai or Pune and I'll make you hear a few set ups.

I am certain you will have a change of opinion.

Cheers
SNV

SNV schrieb:

Dear Jochen, Perhaps you are yet to experience a well integrated system with a sub. Suggest you keep all the jargon aside and give me a call the next time you are in Mumbai or Pune and I'll make you hear a few set ups. I am certain you will have a change of opinion. Cheers SNV

Hi SNV,

Thanks for the invitation and I am looking forward to audition a setup with a well integrated subwoofer in an apropriate room for such frequencies. Sofar all such setups were quite a disappointment for me My last experience was in Munich two weeks ago when I passed by a room of a very reputed speaker company when I saw a huge speaker and subwoofer there. Though I was in a hurry because of an appointment at the HiFi deLuxe fair I thought I must hear such a system and went inside. I was out again after a minute or so. It was just terrible inside

So I really want to audition a system with a well integrated sub woofer to get the experience you are talking about

Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

Agree with you, Arj. But which room can take frequencies of 25 or 30 Hz +/- 2 or 3 db? Most people who have small speakers have small rooms also where low frequencies just overload the room. Regards Jochen

Hey Jochen,

I am not an expert here..but from What i have read i have been led to believe that
- the diagonal of a room (3 dimensions) is what defines the minimum frequency which can be heard in a room
- only 1/4 of the wavelength is needed to actaully needed to support that frequency
- Hence as long as 1/4 of the wavelength is less than the room diagonal, that frequency can be reproduced


so My room of 14X11X10 has a diagonal of 20.5 ft

25 Hz Translates to 45 Ft...hence should be possible

and theoretically can support as low as 15 hz.
Do point out if i am on the wrong path as this is all theory

Arj schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: Agree with you, Arj. But which room can take frequencies of 25 or 30 Hz +/- 2 or 3 db? Most people who have small speakers have small rooms also where low frequencies just overload the room. Regards Jochen Hey Jochen, I am not an expert here..but from What i have read i have been led to believe that - the diagonal of a room (3 dimensions) is what defines the minimum frequency which can be heard in a room - only 1/4 of the wavelength is needed to actaully needed to support that frequency - Hence as long as 1/4 of the wavelength is less than the room diagonal, that frequency can be reproduced so My room of 14X11X10 has a diagonal of 20.5 ft 25 Hz Translates to 45 Ft...hence should be possible and theoretically can support as low as 15 hz. Do point out if i am on the wrong path as this is all theory :.

Hi Arj,
that is true, but
1. one can hear only what the ear is capable to transmit to the brain. This capability is limited to approx. 30 Hz to 20 kHz max. and goes down when you are ageing. I for example, at the age of 56, am not able to hear 30 Hz anymore under normal listening conditions. I still managed some years ago over headphones when I consulted an otologist.
2. especially low frequencies interact with the room very much. Reflections lead to standing waves etc. and the sound becomes bloated and not clean. So theoretically one can hear low frequencies also in small rooms. But how? That's what I meant with overloading the room.

Regards,
Jochen

found some info on this

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/roomacoustics.html

In our discussions, room size will be broken down into two subclassifications: dimensions (height, width and length) and cubic volume. From a practical standpoint, room volume will be an important criteria in choosing loudspeakers and the amplifier necessary to drive them to the desired sound pressure (loudness) level. Assuming that the listener wants to "fill the room" with sound, a large environment will require both a larger loudspeaker and a more powerful amplifier to do the job. Smaller spaces usually dictate smaller speakers. The dimensions of the room (and their ratios) do much to influence the sound in a listening room. The height, length and width will determine the resonant frequencies of the space and, to a great degree, where the speakers and listener should be located (see our separate article on speaker placement). The longest room dimension, the diagonal, will determine the ability of the room to support low frequencies. Ideally we would like to have a diagonal dimension equal to or greater than the wavelength of the lowest frequency we expect to generate within the room. This ideal quickly becomes impractical for most of us when we realize the gargantuan nature of low frequency sound waves in air. A 20 Hz wavelength is 56.6 feet in length![1] Fortunately, we need only one-quarter of this dimension to achieve adequate bass response.

goolimangala schrieb:

Hi Arj, that is true, but 1. one can hear only what the ear is capable to transmit to the brain. This capability is limited to approx. 30 Hz to 20 kHz max. and goes down when you are ageing. I for example, at the age of 56, am not able to hear 30 Hz anymore under normal listening conditions. I still managed some years ago over headphones when I consulted an otologist. 2. especially low frequencies interact with the room very much. Reflections lead to standing waves etc. and the sound becomes bloated and not clean. So theoretically one can hear low frequencies also in small rooms. But how? That's what I meant with overloading the room. Regards, Jochen

Jochen, below 50 Hz, i believe sound starts getting more and more tactile to the extent that below 20 hz it is purely tactile ie the physical feeling of sound. What you may be hearing may not be the fundamental but the 2nd or/and third harmonic..while the fundamental is only felt

but yes with age our hearing will be rolled off on the highs and the lows ..i guess on the high frequencies going above 12KHz itself would be an unexpected bonus

standing waves are definitely a reality (sub or No sub) and positioning of the listener and/or bass treatments are perhaps the only solution other than electronic ways like a feedback destroyer .

Pretty iteresting link Here

Here is another link to an interactive frequency chart: http://www.independe...art/main_display.htm
Among the most widely used instruments in classical, jazz and pop music, the fundamentals for only three instruments are below 40 Hz.

Regards
Jochen

Arj said:

I am not an expert here..but from What i have read i have been led to believe that - the diagonal of a room (3 dimensions) is what defines the minimum frequency which can be heard in a room - only 1/4 of the wavelength is needed to actaully needed to support that frequency - Hence as long as 1/4 of the wavelength is less than the room diagonal, that frequency can be reproduced

Nice discussion Here

This is a common and, to some, and intuitive conclusion. The assumption is that if you can't fit a wavelength in it, the room can't support that frequency. Intuitive as it may seem, it's wrong.

The idea that "some rooms are too small for bass" is widespread. It has something to do with wavelengths and the space required to support specific frequencies. Lacking any training in physics I have always wondered wondered how this logic could be true. What if it were applied to headphones? Given a distance from diaphragm to eardrum of maybe an inch headphones shouldn't produce bass, or even midrange.

You'll get plenty of bass. Below the lowest axial modal frequency (about 50 Hz in this case) you'll get a 12-dB per octave reinforcement / boost as frequency falls.) Your biggest probelm is modes stacked at 50 Hz with the ceiling at 70 Hz (assuming an 8-foot ceiling) and a predominance of energy building up between 50 and 70 Hz. This is all easily equalizable with even a 1/3 octave equalizer. A single cut at 50 or 62 Hz will most likely cure things. And you'll have low bass that most people will just dream of. The Urban Legend myth that small spaces can't "support" long wavelenght signals is simply wrong. If it were true then you'd never be able to hear sounds below about 2000 Hz with closed back headphones.

To summarise, in rooms where 'intuition' tells us that the room will not reproduce below certain frequencies, the room not only reproduces these (low) frequencies, but infact Boosts them @ 12 dB per octave. This is a HUGE boost, leading to 'runaway' and bloated bass.

I support & reitterate what goolimangala said, early in this discussion

Reflections lead to standing waves etc. and the sound becomes bloated and not clean. So theoretically one can hear low frequencies also in small rooms. But how? That's what I meant with overloading the room.

Hi AN,
i do agree with the above poitns especially the standing waves due to the Length/breadth and hight.. and that would a problem with a sub Or floorstander.. i was just puttting up a defence for a Sub.

only way to kill the standing waves is via a some kind of equalisation (i guess Nulls still exist and that is location based)

I agree with you Arj.

Also this thread seems to be drifting towards Room Acoustics rather than REL Subs !

In an argument for Subs, Bhagwan69 uses 2 Subs with his excellent Bookshelves. The integration is VERY, VERY good ( the BEST I have Ever heard).

Having said that, the 2 subs have not been made to do duty to deliver the Lowest and deepest of bass.

Do you think 2 rel studios will do the trick ?

This is an interesting discussion and something we come across pretty often with most systems (which includes the room). I have a very different take on this subject though.
My take is totally based on practicals, not much on articles.

To start with, I fully agree with Arj that to reproduce the complex structure of the tones the system has to reproduce the harmonics and sub harmonics convincingly, which your brain finally interpret and weave into a musical tone.

I also agree with Jochen and AN that room loading is a major issue which creates all the bloat and muddiness in the final sound.

However somethings I have learned over a period of listening and experimentation are:

1. Room loading is mostly a result of "More" bass and not "Low" bass. A big speaker in a small 100sqft room can load the room even with mid-bass.

2. Room loading is also a result of "bad" bass...meaning not a clean articulate bass. Play a well recorded CD which has clean well recorded bass notes and you would be amazed to hear very little muffling with the speaker-room interaction being much well mannered.


My room has pretty deadly artifacts when it comes to bass. It is a near square in shape and only 180 sqft in area. In the last 4 years or so I have heard about 10 pair of speakers in my room which includes almost all conventional varieties (Front Ported, Rear Ported, Sealed, Bookshelf, Floorstander and Hybrid). There is hardly any configuration in terms of positioning that I have not tried (all four walls and, four diagonals and currently I use a skewed diagonal position). My room can boom and bloat very easily. So any component (including cables) that does anything to reduce or increase the quality and quantity of bass is instantly audible.

Some observations that led to my above inference:

1. Going from a Plinius integrated to a good pre-power combination I heard way more extended bass but the boom factor reduced drastically. Sometimes the low bass actually used to surprise me with this pre-power, I never knew there was so much info down there but that info was conveyed to me with such an articulation that it was all audible without any boom or muffling.

2. Going from a Rear ported Dynaudio to a Sealed ATC again was an ear opener. With the ATC the boom reduced significantly but the bass was way more prominent and extended much lower. You hear extension only when it is there else you hear pretty flat bass. This again supports the fact that hearing clean extended bass even in a bad room like mine is possible.

3. Cable experimentation has again led to similar conclusions. Introduction of good power cords, ICs and spk cables into the system has all showed how much cleaner and transparent the sound can become while extending much lower than the previous cable in place.

4. This is going to be the killer : Adding a symposium roller block under the transport and the tube preamp again showed that if the bass is cleaner, the room is less loaded.

5. When one hears well recorded hi-rez material like XRCD, SACD and the likes, bass seems so much more deeper yet so transparent with very little muffling.

These things are not new and would have happened with most of you. I have only summarized it to make a point that you can hear deep deep bass in your average sized room (without loading it) as long as you take care of the various parameters within your equipment chain that can prevent the bass from being articulate. Once that is done the tones will be much more real IMO.

Rel is known for its highly accurate bass reproduction, at least that is what I know about their older models (Strata and Stadium). If one knows how to tune it and place it in the room, it should be an amazing addition. But I guess it is not easy . Thats why lot of these implementations have left things wanting

Nice & informative post, Abhi.

Just wanted to add 1 more pointer...

Keep the volume low... below the point where the room begins to sing High volume does not yield better bass... often worse.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Just wanted to add 1 more pointer... Keep the volume low... below the point where the room begins to sing High volume does not yield better bass... often worse.

That is where "More" bass comes into picture as well. However in our typical Indian rooms even mids can load the room (mainly echo) so obviously volume has to be kept under check unless the room is appropriately treated.

Nice post Abhi
in my last weeks fascination with harmonics and subharmonics what i learnt is that the recording level of the fundamental to the (sub)harmonics can make a sound Muddy (lower fundamental) to boomy (higher fundamental) and this something used by Recording Engineers. to play around with the clarity/thump of sound

also that most of the Room Boom is in the 50-100 Hz range. maybe a better resolving system which does all the frequencies better without accentuating any frequency may just reduce Boom .

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I agree with you Arj. Also this thread seems to be drifting towards Room Acoustics rather than REL Subs ! In an argument for Subs, Bhagwan69 uses 2 Subs with his excellent Bookshelves. The integration is VERY, VERY good ( the BEST I have Ever heard). Having said that, the 2 subs have not been made to do duty to deliver the Lowest and deepest of bass.

Interesting, the way you put it;

I have broken every rule in the audiophile book;
Bookshelf - 2" from rear wall. Listening position is 5' from the speaker [too close]. 2 subs [3 woofers per sub - so 6 woofers in the room - since I have 2 subs] - in differant phase angles & different spls [mad again];

However, I may add, I seem to be 'reasonably' satisfied with the end result - things do play from my neighbours place & my sound stage is 'substantially' behind my speakers - some 10 to 12 feet from the back.
The room is bare with zero treatment - if I may add.

The ML subs are good products - small & fast & reasonably accurate.
I am sure the REL would be a good product too, but I have a 'space constraint' & may not be in a position to fit the REL's into my 'compromised' living environment - sad - I know.

bhagwan69 wrote:

I have broken every rule in the audiophile book;

True !

You need to write a new book on how it was done...

My experiments with Subs will start on Thursday .. hope to toil for the next few weeks to get it right.

Bhagwan, you lucked out with the Subs. I had no joy using an REL with my Maggies, some years back. Just did not match the speed of the Maggies.

REL's still lying with me - played about 10 hours in total.

msb, which rels are those ?

Arj,

Did you pick up subwoofer/subwoofers?

Which one ?

Someone I know was selling a pair REL Strata 5 s.. so i took it up
It was a hasty/rush of blood decision but Bhagwans success in integeration gave me hope

..And have been doing a LOT of reading on Sub integeration...as you can see from the post above.

@Arj,

Awesome !

I am sure you are in the scientist mode now. Best of luck

Arj schrieb:

Someone but Bhagwans success in integeration gave me hope

Excellent;

Way to go...

Trust me - get it to work & you will be supremely happy...
Correct move..in my books at least

Hi Arj,

Any update on this ?

realising the pains of dialing in
But have been acheiving some minor success..and doing a lot of Unlearning !

Kindly share some salient points when you get some time. It will be valuable to all of us.

Let me get it right first then ill definitely do so.

But after a lot of trials...Follow RELs advice is what I learnt

Some small pointers.
Place the sub in a corner.
If you cannot get 3 walls, place it close to 2 walls.
Try and keep it as far behind and further away from you as possible.
Preferable in the middle of the 2 speakers but behind.
Start your music & remove the speaker terminals.
Do not play the speakers, play only the sub.
Get the sub to cut off just above the F3 of your speakers.
Around 45 to 60 Hzs.
Set an spproximate spl that makes your 'comfortable' in your listening position/.
Now, connect the speakers & play again.
Toggle the phase switch & listen for suck outs.
At 1 point [when the phase switch is moved around] the bass will almost cancel. At that point - freeze the phase at exactly the opposite phase. Pairs are 0 & 180. 90 & 270.
Now the difficult part starts;
To get the 'correct' spl setting. This has to be played around with. The trick is to get enough without getting too much. This will need time & trial & error.
Also - making the sub turn on its own axis, i.e. different sides to face the wall, will change the sound [tone] so that too can be tried.

Play around;Enjoy.
When you get it - boy it is so much fun.
I have now become an advocator of subs for floor standers too. No matter hwat speaker you use - a sub is a must [yes do not pelt me] ! Now I begin to understand what a WA Alexander has a Thor Sub. This is for pure music & not for HT.....

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Some small pointers. Place the sub in a corner. If you cannot get 3 walls, place it close to 2 walls. Try and keep it as far behind and further away from you as possible. Preferable in the middle of the 2 speakers but behind. Start your music & remove the speaker terminals. Do not play the speakers, play only the sub. Get the sub to cut off just above the F3 of your speakers. Around 45 to 60 Hzs. Set an spproximate spl that makes your 'comfortable' in your listening position/. Now, connect the speakers & play again. Toggle the phase switch & listen for suck outs. At 1 point [when the phase switch is moved around] the bass will almost cancel. At that point - freeze the phase at exactly the opposite phase. Pairs are 0 & 180. 90 & 270. Now the difficult part starts; To get the 'correct' spl setting. This has to be played around with. The trick is to get enough without getting too much. This will need time & trial & error. Also - making the sub turn on its own axis, i.e. different sides to face the wall, will change the sound [tone] so that too can be tried. Play around;Enjoy. When you get it - boy it is so much fun. I have now become an advocator of subs for floor standers too. No matter hwat speaker you use - a sub is a must [yes do not pelt me] ! Now I begin to understand what a WA Alexander has a Thor Sub. This is for pure music & not for HT..... :KR

Thanks Bhagwan !!:) this was a stimulus mail....could not have put so much info so well !
So Vinnie let me now try to put in my findings although not as content rich as Bhagwans.
What i have found (Till date and subject to change without notice)
1. Corner is currently the best... else it is being 'Heard" well
2. Must be assymetrically placed from 2 walls
3. with Rels the low level cuttof does not seem to be the F3 it seems to be around the F10 !
4. it is surprising , the amount of sub 30hz content even in jazz Vocals !!! and what a difference it makes to the sound (I have an equaliser displaying the frequencies visually.. directly off the transport so i know i am not wrong)

Since mine is a sealed Box downward firing sub the angle of positioning may not work..(but will try)

I liked the idea of behind the speaker suggestion... will try that also

Still unable to get that Magic Lockin though thats the Holy grail and need to pay enough due in sweat

BTW am on Single sub now as one of my subs developed a problem and is sick... let me get that locked in first and once repaired will try pair it up

Question: Bhagwan, is it easier to dial one in and then dial the other froma symmetrical position ?

and although the above may be OT.. have to add the below and get it back on topic
Contacted Jay (As per RELs advice on my problem) and he has been extremely responsive as a dealer ... jay may your tribe increase

@Arj,

What is the F3 of your speaker ?

You mean to say that if you dial in the F3 of your speaker to the REL cutoff, it sounds like the bass sound attenuated by 10db down instead of 3db?

F3 is at around 44 and F10 at around 35. as per REL philosophy, you dial in at a frequency so that the natural response of the sub and the speaker give you an even response.

so the sub dialed in at 30 will have a response which should add up to the response of the speaker below its F3 to give an even response., thats when you "lock in".
Since my speakers and the subs are both sealed box and both have the natural sealed box acting as the "Crossover" once you hit the right spot it locks in, and that is what is very difficult as both the placement and Room accoustics play a part.

Theoretically I am really impressed by the Sub, its build quality and its philosphy. now need to get it practically right is what is important...the signs are there..jsut need to get there now.

As per REL Most Audiophile folks get a sub wrong as they think too much and make the crossover higher and the volume lower..hence they get a bid bass thump and no lows.

Arj schrieb:

Contacted Jay (As per RELs advice on my problem) and he has been extremely responsive as a dealer ... jay may your tribe increase :prost

Dear Arj,

Many thanks.

How to setup a Rel Sub-Bass system - http://rel.net/setup/REL-SET-UP.pdf

Regards
SNV

BTW had a very very surprising result today. at a suggestion of a friend tried the crossover at 25Hz. getting the best results I have so far !!! no boom, clear Midrange and a lot of low level information which was missing. If I switch the sub off i feel like stopping the music !
I must be 75% there.