Does 'Timbre Match' apply to the Sub?

not really...what value have you crossed it over at ?

Arj, I havent setup the HT system yet. Just wnated to know how much does Timbre Matching apply, when considering a sub...coz if its not a problem, I cud go in for Velodyne.
Is Hsu Subs available in bangalore?

If you are looking at Velodyne, then try looking at their higher-end ones. The entry level sub available here is not as well constructed as other brands in the same price.

Anyway, my suggestion would be not to go blindly for Velodyne (since they have ridiculously downgraded their build quality at the entry level) and listen to the stuffs available here. DefTech, Wharfdale, Sonodyne and many others available at entry level are pretty good...so you need to LISTEN.

The best “ value for money” subs for HT are made by sub specialists like Hsu, Svs, Adire audio, AV 123 etc…. Sadly these are usually sold direct on the web and are not represented in India. You could look at the sub made by lithos acoustics in India which may beat most entry/mid level over priced stuff by the big brands.

Howz the Velodyne CHT-R series? I was looking at the
CHT-10R Sub.
Yep, the Wharfedale SW-150 and Sonodyne 1810 are my other options, but Velodyne being a Sub-Specialist, I considered that.
Sonodyne also has a SLF-200A sub which they suggested more than the Roarrs. Have you heard that?

more importantly you got to make sure you cross it over the right frequency depending on your fronts...I personally like a sub to cross over under 55hz.

But with a sub-sat(small) setup, crossing over at 100hz or more is not uncommon.

Manek.

Thanx Manek.
How do you determine the exact frequency to cross it over?
I am planning on Floorstanders as fronts.

and what are the Specs to be noticed when buying a Sub?

Manek schrieb:

more importantly you got to make sure you cross it over the right frequency depending on your fronts...I personally like a sub to cross over under 55hz. Manek.

That's the ideal Manek! Then the sub won't have to handle frequencies above 110Hz (twice the crossover freq). Problem is that the fronts will have to go as low as 28Hz at -3dB (half the crossover freq). Well, if I had such powerful fronts, that would go that low (10" driver minimum), then would I ever bother to take a sub? Truly a chicken-egg situation, Manek.

well in most HT receivers the option might only be 80/100 and 120.

yes timbre is important but doubt if it will match and will doubt more if one would notice

For HT, tonality is definitely not going to be that great a concern. as what you what you will be hearing is a combined sound nd anyway as the sound is going to be split actoss the speaker and the sub.

For stereo I would ideally prefer the Crossover to be below 35/30 so that only harmonics or really low instruments are sounded. but realistically if you use a sub, you will be useing it with a bookshelf and hence it is going to be in the 40-50 range (I have it at 42)

usually below 50 the tactile aspect of sound plays an important role and this role only increasess as we go down the frequency range.

so the drum that sends a thrill through you may be at 50 hz which may be sent out by the main woofer , but it may be the harmonic at 30 which gives you that special kick and that would be by the Sub. the impact of the sub is more tactile than audio based hence tonality may be of little significance

Sorry, that was a lil too Technical for me...

Ok, heres a situation:
Sonodyne Roarr 1810
Crossover Frequency Control: Continuously Variable:50-150Hz
Demarcations for Crossover Control: 50,75,100,125,150
Frequency Response: 35Hz to Crossover frequency

1. Does this mean, if I place the control at 50Hz, Sub will take care of any Sound under 50 Hz? (the lower limit being 35Hz?)

2. If my front speakers have frequency response specified as 45Hz-22kHz, this sub wudnt be ideal? (coz the speaker seems to go as low as the sub)

Hi !

Logically "Timbre" matching should not be an issue for the
Subs due to following reasons:

- Frequences < 80 Hz are poorly localized (non-directional) - so they may seem to come from all the speakers equally

- Sub handles frequencies that are not reproduced by other speakers (depending on the corss-over setting) so there should be no question of timbre matching

It is when the same sound has to come from different directions in 2 channel or multi channel stereo or surround effect - this sound needs to "sound" the same - thus timbre matching.

In your audition list for Subs, please include - Boston PV-500 - a good value for money product.

Regards

Sanjay

Guys,

Dont forget, whether you have an external sub or not, each of our rooms is a Passive Sub Woofer, with a VERY Irregular frequency response... particularly below 200 Hz.

Dips and peaks .... often of 10 dB or more

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Guys, Dont forget, whether you have an external sub or not, each of our rooms is a Passive Sub Woofer, with a VERY Irregular frequency response... particularly below 200 Hz. Dips and peaks .... often of 10 dB or more :(

How very correct ! I am having a tough time in fine tunning this "Sub" - adjusting the level, the crossover, etc. - without much success

Regards

Sanjay

Sanjay,

Check out this link :

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Download the 3 MB mp-3 file, and make a CD out of it, and play it.

It will X-Ray your room's LF response. A REVELATION.

May also give you a handle to your sub woofer matching problem...

juggy,

it also depends on the frequency response of your floorstanders...how deep they go and the roll off, your room response.

BTW what floorstanders do you want to use ?

manek.

juggy,

personally I like a sealed box sub....the quad sealed box is very good. I believe wharfedale also has a sealed box sub which is cheaper...

manek.

Re: Sealed box sub

Wouldn't this kind of sub be softer due to lower efficiency?

neutral, you got to hear them to believe them....tight, fast, clean bass.

manek.

Yes closed box or infinite baffle design would be tighter, faster and cleaner, although it may not go much lower.

Manek, would it help to close the port of an open box Sub? Will it behave like a closed box or not?

Regards

Sanjay

manek, I am planning to get the Sonus 2605 floorstanders.

I checked out the Quad sub, but thats beyond my reach financially.

I was planning on the Velodyne CHT-10R.
Now I have other options which includes Sonodyne 1810, Wharfedale SW-150, Boston PV-500.

not really doc.
the cabinet needs to be airtight or it will just be a badly tuned leaky box. Sealed box speakers are made differently. BTW sealed boxes have very good bass extension as they have appreciable energy even at -6db or -9 db. With your roomlift in the bass region(assuming you dont have a bass suckout in your room) sealed box speakers will perform admirably and they will go low. I've lived with a sealed box speaker for many years and I still miss hearing the bach organ masterpiece Tocata & fugue on a good sealed box at really high-high volume levels
most of todays ported designs will bottom out and shread to pieces at those volume levels Man I miss that

juggy there is a wharfedale sub which is a sealed box too. I dont know the model number or the price but its sure worth checking out.

sonus towers....sonodyne roar sub would be the natural choice but....check out the others

Wharfedale SW-250 is the sealed Sub. I havent heard any reviews on that, but the Sw-150 (front firing) has won many accolades.
Manek, whats ur opinion on the Sonodyne Roarrs?

In a Sub Spec, what is the differnce between "Amp Power 100W before clipping" and "150W before clipping?"
Is this an important spec, or is it the Freq Response we have to check??

Well to my mind it would denote the amp would output 100W without it clipping and causing audible distortion. The other one says it will not clip upto 150 watts of power. Now this is all sales talk to me. On doesnt know how efficient the driver and crossover is and how much power it would sap out of the amp to give a certian db of output.

frequency response.....most stats you see are very ambitions figures. If I were you I would audition the subs with some bass heavy material to see if it is rendered clean and fast and not a one note number, if the sub brochure reads around 32 hz on the lower side, I would be happy with that.

I've heard the sonodyne subs a couple of times before and they seemed OK. maybe good VFM. I'm personally am more and more being skewed towards sealed box designs for bass and thats personal preference only. I am not a bass nut and will be very happy with a sub that honestly does 35hz but clean and fast.

manek.

my thoughts match with maneks on bass quality. a well done sealed box is much more tuneful for music but then its response drops sharply below its tuned frequency. and for a lower frequency the power requirements for loud SPL you really need lots of power.

hence they go very well in stereos especially where the response of the main speakers need to be suplemented.

For HT a ported design is recommended due to the opposite reasons. for teh same size a lover freq and higher SPLs at a lower power. the bass need not be so well controlled but you will hardly notice that (on the other hand you may prefer it) for HT.

Juggy for your HT. forget timbre matching and get the "big mean sub" as it does not matter in HT as the LF is the only one being given to the sub and frankly you will enjoy your movies more with earth shaking bass.

IMHO buy the biggest (meanest ) sub and play it at the lowest setting is better and you get better results than a smaller sub played at a higher volume.

Amp_Nuts test tones are great for getting the excitation frequencies ..you can play around with sub settings and placement to get the best sound (enough material on the web for that ! )

when playing Music thru the front 3-way floorstanders (Stereo), a Sub is not recommended, right?? and I can switch on the sub when i use HT.

Manek, which are the Sealed Subs you wud recommend?

Arj, I stay in an apartment with my HT hall just below 200 sq.feet. So I wud be listening in moderate to low volumes...so a mean killer sub wud be an overkill.

Velodyne doesnt seem to be anyone's favorite!! There are more affordable subs available in India, I better stick to that.

juggy,

As mentioned earlier I know of just two...quad and wharfedale.....I dont know if other companies have em.

BTW the def tech cube with an 8" driver with two passive radiators is also very good for HT and music....maybe you could check that out as well.

manek.

choice is yurs.. but you definitely should do an audition. download some Subwoofer test tones (google it) write it into a cd to take with you.

when you play it on the sub, one good way of testing it is by switching off the main speakers and only play the music on the sub and try to make out how tuneful it is..or is it a sincle thump wonder.

my brief audition of the sonodyne puts it very firmly in the single tone thumper :). If i remember right The wharfedale has very little SPL (an does not go low enough.. 35hz ?)

the Boston I feel is a better bet..i had heard some of their ealier models .
the good o nes for HT are Rel,MJ acoustics, klipsch, Def tech,velodyne , Paradigm, Mirage, Enrgy,SVS etc.. not sure of prices or availability in india

How about low frequency response from floorstanders for pure 2-channel music. How low should they go to accurately reproduce all types of music & instruments?

I see that some very reputed 3-way floorstanders limiting their lows to 40 Hz (e.g. JMlab, etc.) - is it good enough for say western classical orchestra music or even rock?

Would a good sub do justice to the lows in the music or will it simply exaggerate them out of proportion?

Regards

Sanjay

my brief audition of the sonodyne puts it very firmly in the single tone thumper

Arj, Cud you plz elaborate on what "single tone thumper" means? Does it mean it didnt sound musical?

SDhawan schrieb:

How about low frequency response from floorstanders for pure 2-channel music. How low should they go to accurately reproduce all types of music & instruments? I see that some very reputed 3-way floorstanders limiting their lows to 40 Hz (e.g. JMlab, etc.) - is it good enough for say western classical orchestra music or even rock?

for that we need to understand the composition of music.
Most of the sounbs are 100Hz plus and majority of instruments go down till around 50 Hz at 3db for their fundamental tone.
Below that are the various harmonics for which the tolrerance limits could be lower than usual.

Eg Rock. very rarely do you have 30Hz content. surprisingly that thump that you hear has its fundamental at around 50-80. it is the tactile effect which come below (ie the harmonics..apparently can go down to high 20s)

in fact there is more energy in the low level in western classical ..epsecially the Mussgorsky or Mahler types where dynamics is high.

Organs are a different deal as they do have fundamentals down to 16 hz.

so coming back to JM lab, they are down to 40 hz at 3 db but do have a usable response (around 10db Off) till around 30.. and that coveres 99% of all music.

Over the past 1 year , after lots of experimentation with the sub i feel
1. for hindi music 50Hz is enough
2. Vocals 60 Hz is more than enough
3. Rock/Jazz around 45 Hz is enough for 90% of the content
4. Wetern classical: it depends on what you like. string quartets etc 50 hz is enough but the really dynamic pieces 25 hz or even lower is required to get that feel.


Now coming on to a sub it has 2 uses for 2 functions wrt Quantity Vs Quality.
1. for HT. to provide a high spl tactile effect for special effects like explosions,jet planes, bullets, automobiles etc etc to give you a real life feel.: requirement is high SPL. Quantity Over Quality

2. For music. to cover up for Speakers and add SPL in what the speaker lacks. requirement is to just provide enough SPL to make it realistic but to reproduce all the frequencies. ie Quality over Quantity.


yes there are subs that do both quality and quantity (like the rel studio, earthquake nova
) but they cost a bomb

Would a good sub do justice to the lows in the music or will it simply exaggerate them out of proportion?

Ideally you need a full range floorstanders but that comes at a huge cost.. hence the next best option use a sub. one reason most people do not hear a well setup sub is because it require a LOT of effort to set up. and if the gain is kept low enough that it hardly makes its presence felt untill you have switched it off you will love it.

hence if set up badly it will do exactly what has been mentioned above, but if set up well it will be invisible.

juggy_25 schrieb:

Arj, Cud you plz elaborate on what "single tone thumper" means? Does it mean it didnt sound musical?

well it is not meant for music (Musical subs mean a good amplifier, a good design and a good driver)

Do not expect a really good one below 500USD
below that most of them will be able to provide a single tone thump ie in a complex piece having say A Bass guitar and the Drum ..you may only hear 1 sound from the sub..but since the main speaker is reproducing both you may not hear the difference as sound isolation/directivity is very difficult below 150 Hz.

but again musicality domain , IMHO is much above the 250 hz range and udsually cannot be isolated into an instrument/freq. it si the overall combination which makes up musicality.

My recommendation is for an HT do not worry too much about musicality..if you want that..use the money to buy a better speaker instead of a separate sub for the musicality aspect.

for HT buy the sub which gives you the best spl (you can reduce the volume/gain in small rooms).

trying to mix both will not give you the much for either

Doc Wrote:

I see that some very reputed 3-way floorstanders limiting their lows to 40 Hz (e.g. JMlab, etc.)

Arj Wrote:

Most of the sounbs are 100Hz plus and majority of instruments go down till around 50 Hz at 3db for their fundamental tone.

Hi Doc,
Though Arj has mentioned that 50hz is good enough for most music genres but what matters is the roll-off by that frequency. If a speaker is rated at 50hz low freq limit, more often than not it would roll off very fast below 60-65hz so the 50hz tone is less pronounced than it should be. Same for a speaker with lower limit of 40hz (JM Labs). But yes, 40 hz is a very decent lower limit IMO. You almost cover 99% of the genres and music (though 30hz is still better ). So all depends on how faithfully the speaker reproduces its claimed frequency extremes.

Yesterday I came upon an opportunity to listen to Cadence Avita with Plinius Integrated amp, the speakers goes upto 38hz....as Arj said, you just have to hear them to believe what lower harmonics can bring into the music.
But integrating a sub with a good speaker is a herculean job...sometimes you just cant do it.

Dear Arj & Abhi,

Thanks for your reply and beautifully illustrating your points.

I agree this the hormonics that create a huge difference - the difference between a live concert and recordings.

I think I will buy some good recordings of Mussgorsky & Mahler and test my system.

Regards

Sanjay

juggy_25 schrieb:

when playing Music thru the front 3-way floorstanders (Stereo), a Sub is not recommended, right?? and I can switch on the sub when i use HT. Manek, which are the Sealed Subs you wud recommend? Arj, I stay in an apartment with my HT hall just below 200 sq.feet. So I wud be listening in moderate to low volumes...so a mean killer sub wud be an overkill. Velodyne doesnt seem to be anyone's favorite!! There are more affordable subs available in India, I better stick to that.

I have a 220 sq ft hall and a pair of Pulz bookshelves can't be played remotely close to its full volume. If you have Sonus 2605 flrs with two bass drivers each, how much SPL can you tolerate! Besides, these flrs produce a lot of bass themselves. You frankly don't need a sub for music, except for Western classical pieces. Before spending so much money, do consider whether you really need a sub. (If you are into movies, you may want it. But then again, you can divert the bass to the fronts if your AV receiver allows it.)

Neutral schrieb:

I have a 220 sq ft hall and a pair of Pulz bookshelves can't be played remotely close to its full volume. If you have Sonus 2605 flrs with two bass drivers each, how much SPL can you tolerate! Besides, these flrs produce a lot of bass themselves. You frankly don't need a sub for music, except for Western classical pieces. Before spending so much money, do consider whether you really need a sub. (If you are into movies, you may want it. But then again, you can divert the bass to the fronts if your AV receiver allows it.)

Hi neutral, the only issue might be SPLs at what frequency.. even at 40 Hz , bass is quite tactile..but not sure if you are hearing those 25 Hz or 35 Hz effects, and you may not really know unless you measure the response with test tones or a SPL meter.

I really have no idea either of Pulz or of Sonodyne hence do not know their LF range..but unless it is a full range (not quite possible at the budget level to do well) , it may not do that well.

Arj schrieb:

Neutral schrieb: I have a 220 sq ft hall and a pair of Pulz bookshelves can't be played remotely close to its full volume. If you have Sonus 2605 flrs with two bass drivers each, how much SPL can you tolerate! Besides, these flrs produce a lot of bass themselves. You frankly don't need a sub for music, except for Western classical pieces. Before spending so much money, do consider whether you really need a sub. (If you are into movies, you may want it. But then again, you can divert the bass to the fronts if your AV receiver allows it.) Hi neutral, the only issue might be SPLs at what frequency.. even at 40 Hz , bass is quite tactile..but not sure if you are hearing those 25 Hz or 35 Hz effects, and you may not really know unless you measure the response with test tones or a SPL meter. I really have no idea either of Pulz or of Sonodyne hence do not know their LF range..but unless it is a full range (not quite possible at the budget level to do well) , it may not do that well.

Yes Arjun,

You are as usual right The two brands above go down to around 40Hz at - 3dB (as per manufacturer's specs). They definitely don't go remotely close to 25Hz. However, subs that go that low cost crazy amounts. Would you spend 3 times on a sub what you would spend on a front? Sonus 2605 costs in the low twenties and Pulz in the teens. The average sub doesn't budge below 32Hz at -3dB and it will require a hell of a lot of effort to get it to integrate well for music.

Is Juggy prepared for the task? Then my best wishes go with him. [The sad reality is that finding the optimum location is just half the job. Domestic consideration often overrule such idealistic locations ]

I liked someone's idea of calling the room another "Sub". I felt the same about my room and therefore I disconnected my floorstanders (which claim to go down to 38 Hz) and connected rather humble bookshelves - Boston CR-65.

I was astonished at what I heard. I did not miss the lows at all - infact I was amazed at the fact how low frequencies were reproduced beautifully.

Next I tried a cheap trick - to deal with the heavy muddled / bass of my room, I simply removed the speaker cable from the LF drivers of my floorstander & listened to only the "bookshelf" part of the floorstanders. And wow - they sounded better.

It's all in the "room". No wonder why Robert Harley's Book "The Complete Guide to Hi End Audio" devotes it's largest chapter to speaker placement & room acoustics. And according to Harley - room is "another component" in the system.

I hope my wierd experience would help others.

Regards

Sanjay

I simply removed the speaker cable from the LF drivers of my floorstander & listened to only the "bookshelf" part of the floorstanders

I couldnt get this point about "bookshelf part of the floorstanders"

What I meant was that I just connected speaker cables to the Mid & Hi drivers and NOT to the LF? "Bookshelf" part - just an expression !!!!

Regards

Sanjay

He he he doc...why do you have to all that ? What speakers do you have and how big is your listening room ?

I recently shifted my stereo setup to a smaller room where I could listen to music without disturbing rest of my family. this room is about 11 x 11 feet and without much furniture and with bare walls. Putting a sofa, curtain and carpet lead to only small improvement but the bass was still heavy & muddled. I have KEF Coda 3-way floorstander speakers with side-firing woofers & which claim to go down to 38 Hz. They sounded very well in a large room but not here in the smaller one. That's why I have been trying these "cheap tricks".

Regards

Sanjay

dr saab where how are the speaker placed..are the woofers firing inwards or outwards ?

you could try a diagonal placement, if space provides, ie speakers place highly toed in and inwards firing susch that the center point between the speakers lie along the corner This way your seating would be on the diagonal across the corners. especially since your room is a square.

If you are able to Damp the corners with a bookshelf/chain "Moodah" etc.. bass may be more manageable ?

Thanks Arj,

I will try that.

Regards

Sanjay