CADENCE Demo in Bangalore

SDhawan schrieb:

To conclude the debate: Cadence are India's best speakers. And it gives me pride to know that they are an entity to reckon with when talking about world's best. I can't think of any other Indian product which qualifies for that description. We all know what happened to Rover City The only other things that are contenders for world's top are: -Population -Poverty -Corruption -Terrorism -Unemployment -Reservation -And soon to be AIDS :L

Yes I agree also a much much better brand than most internationally I too feel extremely proud that right here in my country there are products made of this caliber.

Satyam.

Amen &JAAAAAAAAIIIIII HINNNND !

Kamal schrieb:

Bhagwan, quality has to be in relation to price.The Cadence Arcas' sell for around $ 10,000 while the Wilsons would set you back by $ 150,000 ;do the Wilsons sound 15 times better? I half suspect that people who lay out that kind of money con themselves into thinking so! Unfortunately, it is a universal failing to ascribe quality largely in relation to price, and we Indians, while chanting"trust only your ears while auditioning eqpt,are very prone to associate quality with only foreign brands. How many persons looking for their first audio setup would have the courage to go for Virens setup rather than a foreign one costing around the same ,purely on the basis of an objective audio experience?

95 % of the worlds athletes run 100m in less than 11 seconds, then why is it that only a few can do it in un under 10 seconds ? If I had to apply your 'maths' here in relation to Wilsons costing 15 times more that the Arca's & hence should sound 15 'times' better !!!!! It does not work like that.

Please do understand it is very very easy to get to 60 % - 70 % of the 'threshold' @ a fraction of the 'cost' but to rise from there on is a mamoth task & the cost increase is logarithmic & the increse is miniscule.

Let us not confuse 2 issues here. Budget & Performance
Budget is very personal - it is a function of ones ability & willingness to spend.
Performance too is rather personal. Unless we hear the different set ups, we will never know what the differences are and therefor can never justify the 'price'. It will all look like a hog wash & snake oil.

Please do let me come again;
I love Cadence - They make great products & their PtoP [price to performance] is one of the best, very hard to beat. However, in 'absolute terms' they are miles away from what the top end of the world have to offer.

Bhagwan

P.S. The Wilson I had quoted was the Max 2 @ 45K US $'s.
The top of the line X-2 [Alexandria] is @ 125/- K & not @ 150/- K as you mentioned.
Besides the Gryphon Posieden @ the same price as the X-2 is a better option imho.
But the Value buster @ super high end is still the Avalon Isis - very difficult to beat - price to performance !!

[quote="sbfx"][quote="Kamal"]Kamal,

I dont care for brands honestly but I really believe that the Cadence Canasya will take the fight home to ANY tube amp priced north of 25,000 US$$ that includes the Jadis JA-500, CAT JL1, Kron..... theres no doubt in my mind that the difference would only be +-5% but with regards to the speaker its a house sound so is the VA-1 but what a sound I love what it does.

Regards,

Satyam.[/quote]

We are in agreement over the Canasya.
I like it too.
I do believe that it is among the top 10 % of the Tube Power Amps of the world. There may be TRL & Wolcot & Kondo etc. but they are all sitting on the top of the field & it is a 'flavour' that one likes.

However, on the speaker front, I do not subscribe to that same thought. I am sorry !
Cadence makes great value buster speakers. They we can say because they are made in India & are purchased by us - Factory Direct. It would be correct to compare them to their International M.S.R.P. when we compare them to Martin Logan & Quad etc. Then how much of a value buy are they ?

Besides in absolute 'fadility' terms too they have a long long way to go, they [cadence] too knows that & probably they will work on it & come out with a new flagship product next year. They sure need to 'raise the bar'. The ARCA is just not swimming with the 'big boys'

Bhagwan

I know not everyone else will agree but to me it has been the Avant Garde Trio which will compete exceedingly well with a sonus faber stradivarius

the space is the problem though ! of course the price is again something i cannot even dream of

calling something "the best" etc etc is very subjective and we can discuss personal preferences endlessly but the only way to discuss this is to keep mobney out.


Imagine you could have any speaker and any amplification/ source and cabling for it in the world for free which one would you choose ?

Arj schrieb:

I know not everyone else will agree but to me it has been the Avant Garde Trio which will compete exceedingly well with a sonus faber stradivarius the world for free which one would you choose ?

I like your choice, however, it is not along my taste & preference.

I have had the opportunity to audition the AG Trio in different set ups with the bass horn & with the conventional sealed box woofer, single & double per channel with different amplification etc. but it never 'tickeled me' There is another DSP Horn chap in Germany - Martion Design - that I liked a lot.

With regards the SF Stradivari, I have heard it twice, with Goldmung [Digital Front End] & with Jeff Rowland [Analogue Clearaudio Master Refernce TT etc.]. At both instances it played rather well, but did not do that 'special' thing to me. The speaker 'looks' a million bucks. F & F [fit & finish] is among the best that there is - no doubt.

Bhagwan

bhagwan69 schrieb:

On a scale of 10, where the products that I have mentioned may score between 8.5 to 9.5, the Cadence ARCA can get to 7 maybe 7.5 on a good day in a great set up etc. etc. I am not bring the Cadence Products down, just making the comparison realistic. If I offended some one by doing this, please do accept my deepest apology. Regards, BHAGWAN

Hi Bhagwan,

sorry to interfere into that discussion a bit late, but I was too busy to set up the ARCAs and CANASYAs in my listening room.
When you rate the ARCAs on a scale of 10 at 7 to 7.5, and others, which cost a fortune in comparisson to the ARCAs, you rate at 8.5 to 9.5, it's not fair in my opinion. The ARCAs cost today close to 5 lakh incl. tax. Now you please compare them also with other speakers that cost around 5 lakh only, and then judge which is the better speaker. If you want on a scale from 0 to 10.

Regards,
Jochen

Bhagwan, liked the way you came right back at me & did not ignore the comment of a newbie-thanks for that!
To quote your comment--the cost rises logarithmically, and the difference is miniscule.
Are you sure you would be able to make out the "miniscule" diff, presuming there is one, without getting overwhelmed
by the foreign pedegree&the huge price?
In my limited experience, brand name & price does not necessarily translate into performance-e.g.,I once had an opportunity to hear B&W's Nautilus 801 for a good 25-30mts,
and was not "blown away"!I for one have never been too impressed by the hyperbole of many of the foreign critics/reviewers,but I guess they too have a job to perform.
Jochen is essentially making the same point as I did, but ina more subtle way-Dr Sanjay, Rahul & me went to see Miss Pune & to our comments all you say is "Miss Los Angeles, is better & so is Miss London,Miss Berlin &miss Paris!I'm sorry, but Miss Pune has a long way to go ...How, Yaar?
You have to agree that beyond a point, the subjective & personal element looms larger & larger, and claiming that it is the gospel is hardly fair. Don't get too impressed by what you read in all the hifi magazines.
Arj, if cost was no consideration, I would rather fly down and listen to the performance live!

Kamal schrieb:

Bhagwan, liked the way you came right back at me & did not ignore the comment of a newbie-thanks for that! To quote your comment--the cost rises logarithmically, and the difference is miniscule. Are you sure you would be able to make out the "miniscule" diff, presuming there is one, without getting overwhelmed by the foreign pedegree&the huge price? In my limited experience, brand name & price does not necessarily translate into performance-e.g.,I once had an opportunity to hear B&W's Nautilus 801 for a good 25-30mts, and was not "blown away"!I for one have never been too impressed by the hyperbole of many of the foreign critics/reviewers,but I guess they too have a job to perform. Jochen is essentially making the same point as I did, but ina more subtle way-Dr Sanjay, Rahul & me went to see Miss Pune & to our comments all you say is "Miss Los Angeles, is better & so is Miss London,Miss Berlin &miss Paris!I'm sorry, but Miss Pune has a long way to go ...How, Yaar? You have to agree that beyond a point, the subjective & personal element looms larger & larger, and claiming that it is the gospel is hardly fair. Don't get too impressed by what you read in all the hifi magazines. Arj, if cost was no consideration, I would rather fly down and listen to the performance live! :D

Kamal,

I too think the Nautilus 801 is a all-right speaker nothing great infact the Arca beats the SHIT out it though there are many other brands that are rated highly are not that great and this I say only after listening to most of them also when I compare the canasya's I only say this after listening to the other amps that I mentioned in the post above.

I know this post is directed to bhagwan but I'm just chiming in to say that these comments are made only after personally auditioning everything the only good B&W product to my ears is the Nautalis Sig (Now Discontinued) but surely as Jochen mentions at the 5L mark it is indeed a damm good speaker the Arca that is.

Regards,

Satyam.

Kamal schrieb:

Arj, if cost was no consideration, I would rather fly down and listen to the performance live! :D

i know, but to listen "live" to the many artists i like so much, the ticket is a one way ticket

I shur don need no hifi der in fact not even money

at this rate this is going to get down to the equivalent of which mango you like best, the dusheri, the langda or the hapoos.

my favourite at any cost is the dusheri but i do know many others ho would be shocked at it and many more who would prefer the begenpalli

Arj, I do like your analogy abt the mangos'-exactly the pt I've been trying to make.
This "which is the best " argument is a futile discussion, since both music& listening preferences are so, so subjective.(e.g,how many"best of" or "greatest hits of.." compilations do we fully agree with?)
The 3 of us went to audition the speakers, we spent time and effort( with pleasure ,no doubt,it was a labor of love) and posted our honest & candid opinion in some detail.
Notice that neither Dr Sanjay, nor I (Rahul has yet to post his opinion(-Come on, yaar, give the girls a miss one night!)made any controversial statements abt the Amayas being the best /2nd /3rd best etc,bec we realise that sonic quality is so personal.We were only keen to share OUR experience with the forum members.If we had just said "the Amayas are excellent" and left it at that, would it have been of any use to the forum members?
I'm laboring this point at some length inorder in order to emphasise my view that only personal auditions, and those written in some detail,( as we have, howsoever amateurish they might appear to some), are of any benefit.And I hope the review will encourage others to also make the effort to audition Amayas,& not accept our opinion blindly.
Let us please not get into best/worst discussions in the future

Kamal schrieb:

(Rahul has yet to post his opinion(-Come on, yaar, give the girls a miss one night!)

He did give them a miss ....

SDhawan schrieb:

To conclude the debate: Cadence are India's best speakers. And it gives me pride to know that they are an entity to reckon with when talking about world's best. I can't think of any other Indian product which qualifies for that description. We all know what happened to Rover City The only other things that are contenders for world's top are: -Population -Poverty -Corruption -Terrorism -Unemployment -Reservation -And soon to be AIDS :L

sorry ... I forgot to add...

-Sushmita Sen
-Aishwarya Rai

SDhawan schrieb:

sorry ... I forgot to add... -Sushmita Sen -Aishwarya Rai :hail

disagree. for me its Kajol and rani

and the discussion never ends

Guys since you are talking of ending this thread, I thought it would be appropriate to mention :

The Cadence Electrostatics are FANTASTIC speakers, specially a 2 or 3 year old pair itf it can be had for signifinatly less money.... bringing it within reach of most dedicated ( but not necessarily rich ) audiophiles.

However, there is an aspect of ALL electrostats, in the Indian climate. They have a VERY FINITE LIFE.

In dusty and Humid Mumbai, one informed audiophile said they probably would last 5 years ... maybe 7...

I dont know if Cadence would be willing to bare their hearts with the actual MTBF ( Mean Time Before Failure ) figures in the field for their Electrostat panels.

And how much would a replacement cost ?


PLEASE DONT MIS Understand... I am NOT Cadence bashing, I ADMIRE their Electrostat panels. However, its someting to keep in mind when buying a Rs 5 Lakh pair of speakers, no ?

Ofcourse, several High End Hi Fi components too have a finite life.... Valve Amps, Speaker cones with Foam surrounds, Lasers in CD Transports and CDPs.....

Infact, I too own a pair of STAX Earspeakers, and live with a nagging fear that this too will pass away....

Hmmmm, this is a new angle..
would Jochen care to respond?

If you buy a pair of speakers worth 5 L. You'll probably buy a amp or 2 for a few Ls. Your CDP (& DAC) would also be a L or so. Your cables will run in tens of thousands and a few feet.

You'll end up proving yourself to be a milionaire (if not multi-millionare). And if you can survive the tax man for 5 years, you'll surely have money enough for a major upgrade after 5 years.

So don't worry about MTBF. Just stay good friends with Bhagwan - you'll need his advice 5 years down the line.



Haven't you often heard guys going to buy a car upwards of 10 L and asking that familiar Indian question, "What's the average?"

well the cost of gas in india is astronomical, hence the initial investment vs running cost is perhaps an important consideration !

one reason I did not buy the Living Voice speakers is because of the foam surrounds..they need replacement every 4years in humid conditions.

but electrostats i presume are easier to maintian especially the cadence ones which from what I understand are built to last in humidity and dust both of which are not really problems in the land of the other electrostats.

from what i understand cadence does require a "tightening" up of the electrostatic panel whicn is done by the dealer/company every 4 years or so

Amp_Nut schrieb:

However, there is an aspect of ALL electrostats, in the Indian climate. They have a VERY FINITE LIFE. In dusty and Humid Mumbai, one informed audiophile said they probably would last 5 years ... maybe 7... I dont know if Cadence would be willing to bare their hearts with the actual MTBF ( Mean Time Before Failure ) figures in the field for their Electrostat panels. And how much would a replacement cost ?

Hi Amp_Nut,

I do agree with you that electrostatic panels have problems in hot and humid environments. But Cadence's ESLs do work very well at temperatures of up to 40° Celsius and a relative humitity of up to 90%. At those conditions other electrostats such as Logan, Quad and others are likely to fail. Cadence is holding several patents on the technology of their electrostatic panels that include the above mentioned operating range, extremely short charge up time of less than a second and a minimal powerconsumption of less than 1 Watt. In my opinion nobody has to worry about failure of the electrostats within the above mentioned extrem conditions.

What is fact is that every electrostatic panel needs tightening after some time, depending on how long it was in use, the size of the panel and at what volume levels it was played. Since the panels of the Cadence speakers are relatively small in comparison to other brands, the need for a tightening of the diaphragms will have to be carried out much later than for bigger panels. An advantage of the new smaller speakers of Cadence' is that the panels are detachable so that only the panel itself has to be sent to the factory at low transport cost.
We had the same discussion a little while ago on the Cadence Forum that is hosted on the Yahoo website and also moderated by our Manek Pardiwalla. You may please also refer to the comments posted there.

Kind regards,
Jochen

another thing to note is that since the panels do duty for upper midrange and high frequencies and not the lower freq's, they dont really have to work as hard as the logans and quads. Best of all they are very easy to drive as well.

As jochen said. it depends on how one uses or abuses speakers but an average of 2-3 hrs a day at modearte volumes, you should not have a problem for 5 yrs. There are quite a few who use the stats for 5+ years with out a rebuild.

manek.

Well, that issue also stands settled.
As for use/abuse, I have read at many places that
nothing wrecks up speakers faster than sound with a lot of distortion-a point also emphasised by Mr Nakra of Enbee when I picked up my set a long time back.
In the 27yrs that I have used Enbee Spkrs, I have had to take the woofers once, for the replacement of the rubber roll surrounds, which had degraded.They were replaced by foam surrounds ,which have been fine all the years since.
So, I guess, if you have to maintain your speakers once in a few years, its not such a big deal considering the amt of pleasure you derive from them!
After all, dont we have to spend time & money on car maintenance every 2-3 months?

kamal,
i know of a guy who has the first cadence electrostat speaker made in the 90's and still works without any thing done to it...

Manek.

THANKS ! Jochen & Manek for your VERY informative & reassuring posts.

Kamal schrieb:

Bhagwan, liked the way you came right back at me & did not ignore the comment of a newbie-thanks for that! To quote your comment--the cost rises logarithmically, and the difference is miniscule. Don't get too impressed by what you read in all the hifi magazines. Arj, if cost was no consideration, I would rather fly down and listen to the performance live! :D

Hi Kamal !

I stopped reading Audio Magazines years back. I still buy them for the Jazz !! Just to see what the 'reviewers' have to say about some products. Also help me keep in touch with what new is on the block. I am only able to take out time 1 or 2 times a year to attend international audio shows, so there is only that much I can see & listen too. The books [magazines] only give me information, I do not and have never evaluated audio products for their 'audio abilities' after reading any review ever - that is the truth.

All the products, I have mentioned, I have 'auditioned' several times in different countries & at different times with different ancillary gear, with the exception of the Rockport [Antares] & Avalon [Isis]. Hence what ever I say, I believe in. It is not that I am enamoured by foreign brands, it is just about audio performance & that happens to be very very subjective.

ARCA is a great product, but it has its limitations.
Price to Performance sure it is difficult to beat, because we are buying it in the country of origin without dealer & distributor margins [200 % at least]. So please do take that into account.

BHAGWAN

Hi Bhagwan, could you please post detailed reviews of your auditions or at least provide links to them?
I'm sure they would enrich the collective experience of the forum members, and whet our appetites!
You also mentioned in some post that "you were an eqpt lover , not a music lover" or words to that effect.
I must confess I was puzzled since the purpose of all the the eqpt that we discuss day in day out is to reproduce recorded music in such a manner as to enhance our enjoyment ,of the,MUSIC!
Regards,
Kamal

Kamal schrieb:

Hi Bhagwan, could you please post detailed reviews of your auditions or at least provide links to them? I'm sure they would enrich the collective experience of the forum members, and whet our appetites! You also mentioned in some post that "you were an eqpt lover , not a music lover" or words to that effect. I must confess I was puzzled since the purpose of all the the eqpt that we discuss day in day out is to reproduce recorded music in such a manner as to enhance our enjoyment ,of the,MUSIC! Regards, Kamal

Dear Kamal,

Bhagwan's point in being an equipment lover is like there are people who's hobby is cars - they love to learn about many cars, experience them wherever possible and acquire some of them depending on opportunity. There are others who are watch collectors, pen collectors, coin collectors, stamp collectors, wine collectors, etc. All of them don't neccessarily love the objects of desire for their use - they just love those objects. Many of us like to own fancy gizmos and many a times we "imagine" or create a need for them to justify their acquisition.

So let's let Bhagwan enjoy his hobby. This also means that he can give us a more objective opinion of the equipment without getting biased by enjoying music on it

doc, you forgot photography your lens/camera collection is also something !

But Sanjay, we played favourite CDs to assess the Amayas worth; how else to you evaluate a music systems,surely not just by looks/price/weight!
I was just puzzled how Bhagwan does his evaluations if he is not a music lover-by all means ,each to his own& whatever gives each his kicks & all that.I'm perfectly content to leave it at that.
BTW, I too possess some cameras but its because I'm an avid photographer;I have used the cameras extensively, barring my digital which I got just a month or so back. I've been into photography as into music, from my childhood.
And Arj,inthe end its supposed to be abt music!

so which camera system do you subscribe to ?

yeah in the end it is about music but we are allowed some indescretions in the middle

Canon;My AE1 is a great camera, but with the advent of digital,a whole lot of Photo sores are shutting down.
My Digitals' also a Canon.

Nikon F-3, with a range of accessories including a waist level viewfinder and focus screens.



My fav VFM was the Minolta XD-11. Also loved the Minolta lenses..

Kamal schrieb:

Hi Bhagwan, could you please post detailed reviews of your auditions or at least provide links to them? You also mentioned in some post that "you were an eqpt lover , not a music lover" or words to that effect. I must confess I was puzzled since the purpose of all the the eqpt that we discuss day in day out is to reproduce recorded music in such a manner as to enhance our enjoyment ,of the,MUSIC! Regards, Kamal

Hello Kamal !

I would love to discuss my different experiances with audio gear that I have owned / used / auditioned / demoed / heard at international audio shows / listened to at various dealers placer [local & international] etc.
However, that cannot be written.
You have to meet me, we will chat, listen to music, so on and so forth.

The other aspect relates to me being more of an audio hobbist rather than a music lover. Please do let me clarify. It is NOT that I 'hate music' but, I am just blunt enough to state that 'music' is a means for me to enjoy my 'audio hobby'. I sure like music, no doubt, but Audio gets a higher priority. Let me give you an example;

If I had 2 options to choose between :-

A] Dire Straits Concent - Live - to attend
B] Rockport Speakers + Goldmund Amplifier to audition

Both on the same evening & none could be re-scheduled, I would choose option [B] - sorry all of you Dire Straits lovers - but then that is me. I am sure 99 % of of the guys on this forum would opt for option [A]

Bhagwan

P.S. If you do come to Bombay - call me, I would love to meet up, show you some pictures, listen to music, enjoy some drinks @ home & talk about audio !! I am serious.

[quote="SDhawan"][quote="Kamal"]Hi

So let's let Bhagwan enjoy his hobby. This also means that he can give us a more objective opinion of the equipment without getting biased by enjoying music on it [/quote]

Thank you Sir !

I appreciate the support;

Bhagwan

P.S. We never met last time around in N.D. maybe next year @ the audio show again or if you would be visiting Bombay for the show this month, then we could meet. It would be a fruitful experiance.
Do try and come, spend 4 to 5 days here. I could take you around [for auditions] to at least 5 persons place that have 'descent' audio set ups - Rs. 1000 K + and they do sound rather nice !!!

Thank you Sir ! I appreciate the support; Bhagwan

Bhagwan, you were never under attack!
Its just that ,for me ,my audio rig has always been,& will always be a means to an end( enjoying music ) and never the end itself; my upgrades over the years have been only if I felt they would enable me to enjoy music better, provided the costs were within reason -Hence I was a bit bewildered by your comment abt being more of an eqpt....
Your example in your response to me above amply clarifies your preferences,& of course, you as any other forum member have the fullest right to hold on to them.
At the same time ,I have always trusted my own ears-recommendations have only been points of departure for checking out.
If I visit BBY, I would love to meet up!

show you some pictures

-I'm too old for that, so we'll stick to the music!
Regards,
Kamal

bhagwan69 schrieb:

A] Dire Straits Concent - Live - to attend B] Rockport Speakers + Goldmund Amplifier to audition

well, i do love music but i do not mind giving up a dire straits live concert for the above as well

i am not too hot on the " live music " thing and much prefer the relaxed and dedicated output from a stere system.

just listen to live very very rarely that too with the curiosity being in room /hall acoustics !. the live jazz sessions that i attend are primarily in pubs and that has more to do with the beer than anything else

Aha ! Beer is good enough a reason to listen to music- a few pints & the highs sound so much more transparent, the bass as tight as the listener.....!

Hi !

Canon AE-1 and Nikon F-3 are great camera bodies. Looks like you are serious enthusiasts too.

I have recently joined another group on Arj's recommendation. You must see it too:

http://flickr.com/photos/arj

http://flickr.com/photos/sdhawan

And as far as this debate on audio, I will say:

"The show must go on ...!"

Kamal schrieb:

Aha ! Beer is good enough a reason to listen to music- a few pints & the highs sound so much more transparent, the bass as tight as the listener.....!

heh heh and you do not need a transparent speaker to think that the singer is in front of you.. the beer will make it so
.


do you think there is a market for Audiophile grade Beer ?

Strong enough to create a soundstage and light enpugh to make sure you keep on listening without rolling off.

I think if we could patent it we'll make enough to afford the monstrous Wilsons!

Canon AE-1 and Nikon F-3 are great camera bodies. Looks like you are serious enthusiasts too.

Sanjay, I love photography!
The pity is that, with the advent of digital ,many good proceesing labs/Shops have shut down.The ones that remain are'nt too professional, in my recent experience.
Have recently picked up Canon A 620,supposedly a good P&S camera and am trying to get used to it.
Regards,
Kamal

Kamal schrieb:

The pity is that, with the advent of digital ,many good proceesing labs/Shops have shut down.The ones that remain are'nt too professional, in my recent experience. Have recently picked up Canon A 620,supposedly a good P&S camera and am trying to get used to it. Regards, Kamal

funny..its the decline of film is what got me into it..got interested in it during college but the money was more needed for chai/samosa and petrol !!!! so put it in abeyance till digital came up and digital SLRs became affordable .