why Bose -- Interesting Article

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khanmadari
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#1 erstellt: 09. Jan 2006, 10:37
First I am not Bose Freak, but I do have old Bose 401 since years..

While reading some reviews on AudioReview.com I came across this interesting review.

Reviewed by: Jon, Audiophile, from Indianapolis, IN USA
Product Model Year:
1995
Summary:
Before reviewing the Bose 401 speaker, I thought I would say a few words about Bose and the Bose Bashing I see going on everywhere.
If you aren't interested in my opinion on this particular topic and just want to read my review of the Bose 401, skip down to the last couple of paragraphs of this review.
Now, for those of you who are still with me, here is my take on the Bose issue. I guess I should give a quick rundown of what makes Bose Speakers such a Polarizing issue in hi-fi circles. Amar Bose founded his company based on two theories about sound, both of which are, in my opinion, valid, at least on face value. The theories his speakers are based on are the following:

Direct / Reflected sound:
Dr. Bose' research indicated that when listening to a live performance of music, 80-90% of the sound reaching the listener is not direct from the instruments, it has bounced off of something first. Therefore, he reasoned, speakers, as sound sources shouldn't send all of their sound directly at the listener. A good portion of the sound should be bounced off of surfaces in the listening environment before reaching them. From this basic theory, he designed and built a famous speaker called the Bose Model 901 that uses 9 drivers, 8 of which are facing away from the listener. Like I said earlier, all of this research is fine when taken at face value. The sound of a live performance does indeed bounce around before coming to the listener. The only problem with this information as it is applied to speaker design is the following: The theory assumes that the speaker is acting as a direct analog to the instrument in question. As if the sound of the instrument was picked up exclusively by a microphone placed right on the instrument. If this were the case, then Dr. Bose would be absolutely correct, the speaker should send 80% to 90% of its output toward the walls of the listening room. Unfortunately, that is not how most recordings are made, and those that are made that way include an "ambiance track" that picks up the reflected sounds in the studio. Therefore, since the reflected sound is already on the recording, if you have a speaker that directs 80% of its output at the walls, what you are really hearing is reflections of reflections. That can't be the absolutely most accurate way to reproduce sound. Having made the preceding criticism, I still prefer the sound of Bi-polar and Di-polar speakers because it helps get rid of the "Boxiness" common in speakers that radiate only to the front. They do tend to have a more open, spacious sound. Only VERY accurate forward firing speakers can really do justice to the nuances of reflected sound on the source material. In the end, though his theory may have a couple of logical flaws, Dr. Bose' idea works pretty well in the real world.

Psychoacoustics:

His second theory is the one that has really caused the firestorm of ant-Bose sentiment; not all of it unjustified. That theory is Psychoacoustics.
As its name implies, Psychoacoustics is the study of the human PERCEPTION of sound, not sound itself. Dr. Bose decided that he would make speakers that gave people what they WANTED to hear, which is not necessarily exactly what was on the source material. This method of designing speakers has obviously been enormously successful from a business/marketing standpoint. Ask the average American (or Japanese for that matter) to name a Hi Fi speaker brand and I would wager that 8 out of 10 would immediately say "Bose". Bose currently owns a stunning 22% of the world speaker market! If I were to buy stock in Audio companies, that is the stock I would probably recommend for the next while at least. Does this mean that you should immediately go out and buy Bose speakers without even auditioning other brands? Can millions of consumers be wrong? Well, yes and no. As far as the accuracy of their speakers goes, even Bose states explicitly that their speakers are tuned for what people prefer to hear. That statement implies that what people prefer can be but isn't necessarily accurate to what is on the source material, otherwise, why make the statement at all? So saying that Bose is making bad speakers is not necessarily true. Telling Bose their speakers are inaccurate is not telling them anything they don't already know, they are objectively inaccurate, but Bose admits that. Subjectively they are good speakers, because they produce sound that people like! The problem comes when you ask the question; "Which people?" In dealing with Psychoacoustics one must realize from the start that it will inevitably lead to speakers that the AVERAGE person likes. This means that the speakers will be tuned to what the VAST MAJORITY of the population who are casual listeners, not audiophiles, like to hear when listening to speakers. So what is the difference between a casual listener and an audiophile? Some would say snobbiness, mostly. But I don't see it that way… well, ok, sometimes I do. No, seriously, becoming an "audiophile" is analogous to learning a foreign language. When you begin learning a foreign language, hearing that language spoken, all you hear are sounds but you can't apply any meaning to them. You will obviously be listening for sounds that are used in your native tongue and ignore the rest. The problem is that the meaning may in fact be in the sounds you ignored. Over time, with more exposure to the language, you will develop an "ear" for the language, this means that you will learn which sounds convey the most meaning and you will be able pick them out from the rest of the sounds being uttered. This means that you are able to gain more information from the sounds you hear. The important point here is that you will be listening for completely different things than a student just beginning the process of learning the language. Going back to speakers, over time, if a person begins getting really involved in High-End audio, they will begin to take on a different mindset than the casual listener. To the casual listener, the whole point is to enjoy the music and not analyze it. But to the audiophile, the holy grail becomes accuracy; reproducing as faithfully as possible the performance as it was recorded (that is why audiophiles can sometimes sound like religious fanatics when talking about the sound stereos should produce). The casual listeners and the dedicated audiophiles are in fact listening for and seeking completely different objectives. Once this point is understood, then the success of Bose speakers in the marketplace and the outrage this causes audiophiles is more understandable. Next, a word to those audiophiles who continually bash Bose speakers and write scathing reviews of them. In a way, you are slitting your own throats, your continual slamming of Bose doesn't really help, because people will buy what they like (what sounds good to them) regardless of what you have to say about it. Your ranting and raving only makes it sound like audiophiles are a bunch of stuck-up snobs who have nothing better to do with their lives than call everyone else idiots. That type of perception slits your own throats because it marginalizes you as a fanatic and keeps people who might otherwise join your ranks from becoming interested in the first place. And the more audiophiles there are out there the more likely there is to be advancement in equipment design (bigger market, more research= bigger returns). This has generally meant in the past that equipment that has been unaffordable in the past can become affordable in the future.
Just a word in defense of Bose. Perhaps audiophiles should give Bose a little more slack because of the fact that they are responsible for bringing people who otherwise wouldn't be interested into the market. Most Bose buyers will continue to be "casual listeners" and continue to buy bigger and more expensive Bose Equipment. Who cares? So Bose makes a lot of money, big deal! Those buyers aren't going to look anywhere else anyway. Those aren't the people audiophiles should be concerned with. But there is a minority of Bose buyers who will take an avid interest in High-End audio. Don't worry, they'll eventually begin looking for more accurate speakers and will shop elsewhere. But it is important to recognize that they probably wouldn't be in this hobby at all if it weren't for a speaker that grabbed their attention at a time when they really didn't give a damn about detail, frequency response, accuracy, etc., they just wanted a speaker they liked to listen to. For that, audiophiles everywhere owe Dr. Bose some thanks.

BOSE Model 401 Review:

I owned a pair of Bose 401 speakers from 1993 to 1995, and to be honest, I loved them. They were my introduction to real Hi-Fi, and honestly they were the best sounding speaker for the money that I listened to at the time. I was also looking at speakers from Infinity, Klipsch, Polk Audio, Sony, Yamaha, etc. The problems with those speakers ranged from overly bright tweeters (Infinity and Klipsh) to bass that didn't go low enough. The 401s sounded best in the show room.
Most reviews of this speaker mention a lack of high frequency extension and boomy, bloated bass response. I suspect that most of those reviewers were standing or sitting in a moderately tall chair when listening to them. My 401s exibited exactly those characteristics if you listened to them even a little bit off-axis vertically. I actually listened to mine sitting on the floor or a beanbag chair. I had no problem getting reasonable top-end extension. Another factor that helped my 401s was the fact that I had them in a carpeted room with painted cinderblock walls. This room would be far too "bright" for any speaker with even moderately bright tweeters but it helped my 401s a lot. As for the boomy, bloated bass, there are things that can be done to help that problem. First, this speaker needs to be treated like a Di-Pole radiator. It needs to be kept AT LEAST two feet from the back walls and 3 feet from the side walls. If they are too close to the walls, you will hear nothing but boomy bass and muddy midrange. So, first get them away from the walls! Many have described this and other Bose speakers as having no real low frequency extension, but rather an exaggerated mid-bass. I have always found that observation to be confusing and probably just a slam, a lot like name calling. My 401s had plenty of low frequency extension and a distinct LACK of mid-bass. For example, on the "Last of the Mohicans" soundtrack, there is a very low melody that plays through basically the whole CD. I know it is there because I've heard this CD on many systems, some with subwoofers. My 401s played this undertone very strongly, not really accurately, buy strongly. The 401 has two 6.5in. Woofers, not what you would expect to be able to produce strong output below 40-50Hz. In fact, the drivers don't. The cabinet on the 401 is designed to resonate and boost very low frequencies. While this design helps low frequency extension, it costs the speaker in other areas. The costs are: low frequency control, definition, (due to the fact that you are hearing resonances, not strongly produced notes) and a strong dip in the midbass. Though you knew there was a lot of bass in the music, you couldn't hear individual notes well and it was loose, bloated and boomy. What was also missing was the corresponding mid-bass that gave the lower frequencies their definition. I noticed this especially after listening to the same music on my friend's Polk Audio LS-50s. Although my 401s went lower, his speakers were much better at defining that bass, and producing the corresponding mid bass harmonics that really tell you what instrument is making that sound. His Polks sounded much more alive and hard hitting on Rock and Roll because of the mid-bass punch they could produce. The other problem my 401s ran into was that passages full of transients and multiple rapid rhythms tended to overwhelm the 401s, try Aerosmith for example. This happened more commonly at high volumes, so this might be partially a result of the bright room I had them in. What the Bose 401s did right was present a large, airy soundstage with reasonably accurate soundstaging. While the dynamics and lack of mid-bass hurt them for Hard Rock, they were very good with classical music due to the fact that they presented such an expansive soundstage. The low frequency extension helped here too, classical music generally doesn't carry a lot of very low frequency notes, and what there are usually aren't transient in nature. Therefore, a lack of low frequency definition didn't hurt the 401s all that much. But the bass extension did help to give weight and depth to the soundstage. So it really all comes down to what kind of music you intend to listen to. Rock and Roll? Shop elsewhere. Classical? The 401s do a pretty impressive job of throwing a lifelike soundstage for the money.
One final word (FINALLY!) about build quality: Bose got its early reputation for producing high quality, unique speakers that were actually good values for the money. I'm sure Dr. Bose still owns the company, but from the latest products I would say that the bean counters are actually running things. In 1995 I sold my system because I was headed to Japan for a couple of years. When I got back in 1998 and started looking at speakers again, I was shocked at the reduction in material and build quality I saw in Bose speakers. Of course I also noted a corresponding reduction in sound quality. In fact, if you compare current Bose speakers from those made ten or more years ago, you can immediately see that things have gone downhill fast as far as what they use to make the speakers. For example, the 301s have gone from two tweeters in a direct/reflecting array to just one pointing into the center of the room, FOR THE SAME MONEY! Would I buy a set of Bose speakers now? No, both because of the build quality issue and mostly because my tastes have changed (see explanation of becoming an audiophile above). But I do still feel that Bose 401s are not a bad way to get started in this hobby. You can also get them for dirt cheap if you look around some, I saw them in for $350 or so at SAM'S CLUB lately.
Behram
Ist häufiger hier
#2 erstellt: 19. Feb 2006, 16:08
Excellent write up. I agree with you fully. I was myself an owner of Bose speakers once upon a time and feel likewise. I would go one step furthur and state that there are some characteristics of Bose which I miss now and are not audible in my present setup although the recent one gives more detail and imaging.

Behram.
khanmadari
Ist häufiger hier
#3 erstellt: 22. Feb 2006, 19:55
Hey Behram,
Appreciate your frank opinion abt the bose.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 24. Feb 2006, 09:06
Just my 2 cents worth on Bose and the specific write up.

1. Fisrt of all, I think we need to remind ourselves why are audiophiles and the audiophile press in particular Anti-Bose ?

Nah... it has NOTHING to do with Bose's success ( then we would all be against B&W too, no ? )

Its far more fundamental.

A couple of decades ago, when Dr Amar Bose started his publicity campaign ( which remains very sucessful even today) on the requirenemt of reflected sound ). A review of the then Top-Of-The-Line Bose speaker was not so charitable. The reviewer had then said someting to the effect that " This was the 1st time I heard Ella Fritzgerald with a 9 feet wide mouth."

BOSE SUED THE REVIEWER & PUBLICATION, for that.

As a direct consequence, the Hi Fi pres decided unanimosly that they would never review another Bose product again, since Bose only wanted to hear praise, and no critisim for his products. Such reviews would be unfair to readers.

THAT status quo more or less stands even today.

2. To bolster his theory on reflected sound, and his understanding of Psyco-acoustics ( Dr Amar Bose lecturers part time at MIT, USA ), when he visited India more than 3 decades ago, he called a volunteer on stage. The volunteer was a good pal of mine, Suboroto Bhattacharjee. He told the audience that its the eyes that help define Audio imagining, and the very concept of precise audio imaging by ears alone, is not true.

He asked Bhattacharjee to face his back to him ( Bose ) . Bose then rattled a bunch of keys, and asked Bhattacharjee to point out the location of the keys. Bhattarcharjee was BANG on.

2 more tries with the same result. Bhattacharjee had good ears and Bose lost face in public.

( Bhattacharjee migrated to Australia more than 15 years ago, and I have lost touch with him )

Would be nice if Forum members try out the same excercise, and post their findings... Come on Fellas. Tell me if YOUR ears agree with Dr Amar Bose or not.

3. If reflected sound was / is the KEY to the Bose sound, why has the new 301 got a tweeter Directly facing the listner.... much in line with conventional wisdom ?

If cost had to be cut, then the Direct tweeter should have been dispensed with, no ?

4. In support of Bose, I must add, that the company has done a REMARKABLE marketing job all these years ( and ears ). That alone is more than what anyone else has achieved in our industry in the past 2 decades.

Cheers
nindo
Ist häufiger hier
#5 erstellt: 03. Mrz 2006, 13:10
during my auditioning phase i checked out the bose 301s...in mumbai (crossroads)...i had listened to the wharfe 8.4 just 15 min back...standing rite in front of it and the spkrs at my ear level..the sound was very pleasant..like the sound from an good in-wall speaker in some supermarket..it had that wee bit of "surround sound" effect...its sounds melodious at low volumes...but seriously lacks stereo imaging (if thats how one terms it)...it wont suit a listener who is looking for clarity in each n every instrument thats being played or the voice...the extra tweeter at the back was probabely playing the trick...

thats when i was astonished that how can bose be worse than all those unheard-of brands like wharfedale, polk audio etc...but ofcourse then i stumbled upon this forum and realised that lots of people agree to my observation...

as for the acoustimass and lifestyle series...i have heard them lotsa times...they sounded good for movie watching but sucked for music..

nindo


[Beitrag von nindo am 03. Mrz 2006, 13:13 bearbeitet]
khanmadari
Ist häufiger hier
#6 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2006, 17:17
some technical specs, you may not have seen before.

Bose Review - http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html
Behram
Ist häufiger hier
#7 erstellt: 11. Mrz 2006, 10:28
Here, this ia an altogether diferent picture of Bose AM 15:

http://www.audiorevi..._145366_4282crx.aspx

Review 4 of 8
Price Paid: $1299.00 from Ultimate Electronics
Summary:
I have read all of the reviews of the BOSE Acoustimass 15 Series II speakers. I purchased them last month and am waiting for the upgrade speaker to make it a AC16 with 6.1 sound. I have a perfectly rectangular room that is 19ft long by 13ft wide, so my room is ideally setup for a home theatre system. I have a Mitsubishi WS-65313 65" television, Yamaha RXV640 Receiver, and the Samsung DVD-HD931 High Def DVD. I performed some NON-PROFESSIONAL AND NON-SCIENTIFIC tests and it cleared several things up for me personally and I wanted to share them with you. First of all, if you want truly wonderful, life like sound, you need to purchase two front loudspeakers, dedicated center, bi-directional surrounds, and two rear center speakers. Axiom makes a good set. They will cost about the same as the BOSE. HOWEVER... If you are like me who doesn't want an eyesore and who doesn't have the room for those speakers, then a small set is good and the BOSE would be the ideal choice. Here is why. I have read that there is a cutoff in the frequency range between 200hz and 280hz. I looked at the article that information is based on and it was written in 1999. I decided to test that theory. I generated frequencies on my computer from 300hz down to 20hz and sent them through my Yamaha RXV640 receiver. Well, what do you think happened? The cube speakers played ALL of the frequencies down to 190hz and then between 190 and 180, the sub seamlessly kicked in. The sub generated tones all the way down to about 28hz refuting the claim that it doesn't go below 48hz. I also had a sound meter and noticed very little fluctuation in the level, certainly not +/- 10db as indicated in the infamous 1999 BOSE review. As for the high frequencies, my ears can't hear anything above 16khz, however, I could still feel the pressure on my eardrum. I'm sure if I had the proper equipment, I could detect whether the speakers are generating tones that high, but I had to rely on my 32 year old ears. The last test I generated was a frequency slide going from 20khz to 20hz. I sat in my normal sitting position and played that tone and noticed no fluctuations at all with minimal decibal fluctuation. You can't pick the SUB location out. I stand in front of a Cub speaker and as far as I can tell, the bass comes the cube. Is BOSE expensive? Yes. Are there better speakers out there? Yes. I just read about a bookshelf system that is THX Certified, but I didn't want to pay the $4000 price tag. Please don't rely on five year old articles to make your decisions. Go to a store like Ultimate Electronics or Tweeter. They have the BOSE speakers in a room with twenty other speakers to compare them to. Heck, take a couple of DVD's with you and play them. Trust your ears and decide for yourself. However, if your going to compare them to loudspeakers and larger bi-directional surrounds, there will be no comparison. BOSE speakers serve the purpose of providing a hidden, non-obtrusive speaker system that delivers more than adequate and precise sound. Compare them to Infinity, Klipsh, Mirage, and you will be happy with BOSE. I was.
Strengths:
Wide range Twiddler Drivers. 6.1 channel capable.
Weaknesses:
Pricey.
Report this review >> <javascript:PostFlagReview(1574847,>
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#8 erstellt: 13. Mrz 2006, 07:28

Here, this ia an altogether diferent picture of Bose AM 15:

http://www.audiorevi..._145366_4282crx.aspx



was this review done by a reviwer..no!!!but guys who have bought it. First thing is I don't rely on these reviews as they are too biased..you pick up any product and most get good reviews.


Compare them to Infinity, Klipsh, Mirage, and you will be happy with BOSE

My goodness how could you fly off your handle against Klispch who are pioneers in HT technology...have you heard a Klipsch setup?? No I'm sure you've not..Please go and have a listen and you'll come out with hair standing everywhere.
Mirage Omni series gives you superb synergy. I have no quips about bose and I'm sure as you own it you can't see it ripped here, but thats the fact friend.

I REST MY CASE HERE
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#9 erstellt: 13. Mrz 2006, 07:40

http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT&product=901_floorstanding_inthebox#tabs




I really don't understand hoe Mr.Bose feels this is FLRS...and look at those specs which we are of no interest to us..Truly aimed at dumb cows..


http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT&product=am3_sa2_package_index


can anyone tell me what can he pack in a 3.45 kilo amp with 1.5 kilo casing..that makes it 2.00 kilos..hmm what bout transformer....0.5 klios...then 1.5 kilos left...Now tell me Amp_Nut what can 1.5 kilos in a stereo amp contain to entertain world..
khanmadari
Ist häufiger hier
#10 erstellt: 16. Apr 2006, 18:23

Ditto SUB_BOSS..
also look out for Lifestyle® SA-2 Stereo Amplifier specs...
DoctorLecter
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 04:51
all I can say is this:

I have a pair of Bose 301 and as far as I'm concerned they are some of the finest speakers I have ever heard.
The tweeters are amazing, only the woofers fall apart after a few years....
:-p
But I have never heard such great tweeters, soft, precise and never annoying, I really fell in love with them!

I can't say anything about the "Acoustimass"-series, I've never heard them, neither did I hear the controverse 901. I can just say, that I will never ever give away my 301s!


-- -- --
abhi.pani
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 06:47
Having re-read this thread, I have to say I traveled back in time . It somewhat saddens me that we do not see these members anymore on our forum . Now, when I look back I realize two things:

1. We had lots of enthusiastic members back then who were active.

2. The maturity of our discussions was somewhat lacking. Even in this very thread, people are challenging each other to go back and listen then talk . I remember things like these was rampant at one time and may be thats why some people were turned off and they left. Some people would have left because they finally bought their setup and did not want to waste any more time on forums.
Arj
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 14:46
Abhi, it also means that as a Group we have learnt so much in the last 3 years in our understanding of various factors that go into this hobby.

and its all thanks to this Community

we have lost a few good ones along the way and gained some too
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