Want a good Amplifier

Hi Max,
The Plinius was a good amp and I would guess had all the attributes you expect in your next amp. There are definitely better amps out there (may be within your budget as well) but IMO the qualities you are looking for especially after owning the SA102 would/should be fulfilled if you upgrade to a high quality source, preferably a tube source. I have heard the Arc with very high quality amplification (Gryphon) and IMO they seriously need a soulful source. Once you have that, getting a decent 50 watter amp will not be difficult. Just my 0.02.

Max, whats your CDP ? as mentioned by Abhi beating plinius at that price would be an interesting challenge !

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi Max, The Plinius was a good amp and I would guess had all the attributes you expect in your next amp. There are definitely better amps out there (may be within your budget as well) but IMO the qualities you are looking for especially after owning the SA102 would/should be fulfilled if you upgrade to a high quality source, preferably a tube source. I have heard the Arc with very high quality amplification (Gryphon) and IMO they seriously need a soulful source. Once you have that, getting a decent 50 watter amp will not be difficult. Just my 0.02.

That was the plan Abhi, however in a rare fit of impulsiveness, I gave away the Plinius.

Anyways, while the Source surely needs upgrading,I at least have a source which I will be replacing/upgrading over a period of time but it is an amp that I am currently without

The Plinius was extremely dynamic and nice sounding amp, however with the ARCs I always felt a slight leanness in the mids. The case would be different in another setup.

Max

Arj schrieb:

Max, whats your CDP ? as mentioned by Abhi beating plinius at that price would be an interesting challenge !

Hi Arj,

I am using a Marantz CD-17 mk3 modified with a Trichord Research Clock 4 with dedicated PSU.

Yes it will be an interesting challenge and hopefully fruitful. What I am looking for now is synergy rather than price/brand. Let's hope I am successful in my quest.

Max - 9923000654

In that case Max, how about a tube monoblock pair from Rethm Audio. For the money you have allocated you can buy a new pair from Jacob. I dont know the exact specs but I have heard many good things about his amps and I am sure he can do something customized for your power requirement.
Another superb amp is the Leben CS600, though just 30 watts, it has very good drive and tone. Unless your speaker dips below 4 ohms it should be fine.

abhi.pani schrieb:

In that case Max, how about a tube monoblock pair from Rethm Audio. For the money you have allocated you can buy a new pair from Jacob. I dont know the exact specs but I have heard many good things about his amps and I am sure he can do something customized for your power requirement. Another superb amp is the Leben CS600, though just 30 watts, it has very good drive and tone. Unless your speaker dips below 4 ohms it should be fine.

I checked with Jacob and the SET amp is just 12 wpc which may not drive my speakers. He is in the process of making a hybrid amp which should deliver about 75wpc but that will take time.

I have not thought of the CS600 as yet but I suspect it may be out of my budget unless there is one in the 2nd hand market.

The Ayon Orion 2 can be an option though a stretch on the budget front. any opinions on this amp?

Max

I would really liked to hear your views after you have auditioned the setup with a different source as the plinius is anything but thin, and the WBs are more on the neutral side so my suspicion would be on the CDP

i would not call the Orions warm especially in comparison with the plinius. Only way is to hear it

Jacobs amp is meant for high efficiency speakers..definitely not for the WBs.From all i know the WBs are speakers which Shine with power and also tubes.Unico/Pathos are two brands with Hybrids. Maybe Vincent audio as well ?.

Arj schrieb:

I would really liked to hear your views after you have auditioned the setup with a different source as the plinius is anything but thin, and the WBs are more on the neutral side so my suspicion would be on the CDP i would not call the Orions warm especially in comparison with the plinius. Only way is to hear it Jacobs amp is meant for high efficiency speakers..definitely not for the WBs.From all i know the WBs are speakers which Shine with power and also tubes.Unico/Pathos are two brands with Hybrids. Maybe Vincent audio as well ?.

I heard the Plinius with a Cyrus DAC. Not the best DAC but surely a capable one. That did make a noticable difference so I fully admit that the Source was the culprit.

But.....as I said I sold the Plinius when an Audiophile has that rare momentary lapse into being an Audiofool But I guess what is done is done.

The Unison Research is out of my budget unless I sell my ARCs to fund the amplifier purchase ( another AudioFool lapse? ) and I do not know who deals in Pathos.

Meanwhile the search continues.

Acoustic portrait has a new dual mono 200 watt/channel amp called the CPA-3. The first batch of those were picked by many of us.

They are quite superior to the/any Plinius amp. You could talk to Siva.

square_wave schrieb:

Acoustic portrait has a new dual mono 200 watt/channel amp called the CPA-3. The first batch of those were picked by many of us. They are quite superior to the/any Plinius amp. You could talk to Siva.

You spoke my mind sir.:hail I had sent you an sms to discuss the same but got no response.I think your cell number has changed

What is the approx. cost of this amp?

What is your take on the sonic signature vis a vis the Plinius?

Max - 09923000654

Hi Max,

To say it in one sentence, this amp does not do anything. It just amplifies the music. Most of the problems, adjectives “ add your favorite audiophile lingo” here do not apply. It just creates music.

Many comparisons have been done against Plinius, odyssey monoblocks among many others. It just sounds “right” to me.
It is definitely worth a look.

The pricing is below a lakh currently. I think Siva is planning to separate the monoblocks (currently in one box as a dual mono design) into separate chassis so that they are separate entities in a tall chassis which will sit alongside the rack beside the speakers. You will need to talk to Siva about this.

Forgot to add.

I have send you my new number.

square_wave schrieb:

Forgot to add. I have send you my new number.

Thanks buddy, I will definitely call up Siva regarding this unit. If I go ahead with this unit, I would prefer to buy the single chassis unit purely for home friendly purposes.

Prior to that I will talk to you regarding the unit so I will be in a better position to discuss the options ( non - commercial ) better with Siva.

Max

Sivas products are all Quality products and are truly nearing neutrality and very strong on Micro and macro Dynamics.

But if your original quest was to find an Amp adding more body that a Plinius, I am not sure if you are on the right path and really looking at the right equipment !


While you are at it please do audition his DAC as well

Arj schrieb:

Sivas products are all Quality products and are truly nearing neutrality and very strong on Micro and macro Dynamics. But if your original quest was to find an Amp adding more body that a Plinius, I am not sure if you are on the right path and really looking at the right equipment ! While you are at it please do audition his DAC as well

Hi Arj,

The problem is being in Pune does not help in terms of an audition I am planning to see if I can manage his Pre-power combo and once settled that in the DAC is more or less a confirmed upgrade.

Max

Hi Guyz in B'Lore,

I am hearing quite a bit about the Ayon (Orion or Spirit )from trusted friends.

Could you please share your thoughts and experiences on thes Amps if you have auditioned them?

I know the power is not much but then again....my room size is 12ft X 14ft.

I have heard the first amplifier which sridhar had got in on the emerald physics. It sounded quite good. Since the emerald physics are very unconventional speakers, I cannot give you a comparison with any other amp. I found the Ayons to be more neutral than many tube amps I have heard.

Why not the SET model ( Spark 3) ?

square_wave schrieb:

I have heard the first amplifier which sridhar had got in on the emerald physics. It sounded quite good. Since the emerald physics are very unconventional speakers, I cannot give you a comparison with any other amp. I found the Ayons to be more neutral than many tube amps I have heard. Why not the SET model ( Spark 3) ?

The SET model I believe is more expensive and out of my budget The other MAIN thing is that it is only 20WPC which may not drive my Wilson Benesch ARCs.

The Orion as well as the Spirit can run in SET mode but with KT88 tubes

maxcoutinho schrieb:

I checked with Jacob and the SET amp is just 12 wpc which may not drive my speakers.

Jacob also has a SET amp which gives out 22 watts .
22 SET watts is a lot IMO. More like a 45 watts push pull.
I may be wrong but that is what I normally gather from discussions.

Watts are Watts !

Set, pentode, transistor or whatever other output device one may use. That's what I believe in.

Manek

Theoretically true. But isn’t there some difference based on design ? I guess it could be because of the distortion characteristics of tube amps which make them seem more powerful than they are! If pushed into distortion, they do not sound harsh so we perceive them as more powerful.
I may be wrong here.

i guess in the end, Watts are watts but this power business is not really so easy in Black and White (so maybe it should be What are watts )

found somethng in a guitar amp forum whih was interesting http://www.tdpri.com...-vs-solid-state.html

With SS amps there is a lot of negative feedback and it keeps the output clean right up to the point where the amp runs out of voltage and clips the signal. No mater how much more signal you put in you will not get any more voltage out. Tube amps do not have as much negative feedback as a SS amp because the stages are capacitive coupled and they have that transformer in the back end throwing in a lot of phase shifts. With a lot of negative feedback that phase shift causes positive feedback and you have a squealing pig. So rather than the tube amp putting out clean power till it runs out of supply voltage you get the tubes acting nonlinear as they get closer to their limit. So rather than like a SS amp where the distortion curve is low and then goes straight up when it clips a tube amp distortion curve looks more like a hockey stick. It increases but the amp can still put out more voltage (power) before it clips. It might be putting out 10% or 20% distortion but it is not like that will bother us. You could have a tube amp that runs out of steam once it hits its rated power, it all depending on how the manufacturer designed the amp. Some tube amps sound louder than others even though they are rated for the same power. This power thing is not black and white.

Try the Cadence VA-1. Call them, I'm sure a home demo could be possible.

msb1 schrieb:

Try the Cadence VA-1. Call them, I'm sure a home demo could be possible.

Hi MSB,

I used the VA-1 for over 7-8 years. Modified it to the limits over that period till there was nothing left to modify. Sold it around 3.5 years ago when my WB ARCs came ;-)


The problem was that 20 watts was not cutting it in terms of power and I did not like the 36 watter over the 20 watter in terms of tone and sonic purity

Max

SBFX has a Bow Integrated for sale.. PM him.

msb1 schrieb:

SBFX has a Bow Integrated for sale.. PM him.

Thanks buddy. I have sent him a PM.

FINALLY......I have bought a good Integrated amplifier

It is the Trigon Energy Integrated. Tried it and it turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing so to say (at least in my system).

As usual, Jochen is a gem of a person to deal with (dare I say one of the best HiFi dealers I have come across) I will of course be doing quite a few purchases in the near future from him as and when funds allow.

Guys, anyone who is on the lookout for a good integrated should give this amp an absolute listen. After listenning to quite a few amplifiers ( all more expensive ) I feel it is an excellent VFM proposition

For now, I am a happy camper

A BIG THANK YOU to all my HiFi friends from the forum who helped me in my search.

Max

Happy for you Max :-)

Happy for Jochen :-) Jochen, that's quite a compliment from Max. Please carry on the good work.

Regards

Manek

maxcoutinho schrieb:

As usual, Jochen is a gem of a person to deal with (dare I say one of the best HiFi dealers I have come across) I will of course be doing quite a few purchases in the near future from him as and when funds allow. Max

Hi Max,

"Thanks for the flowers" as we would say in Germany when we receive a compliment.
Thanks for your understanding also when a problem with the shipment cropped up in between

Regards,
Jochen

The-German-HiFi-Connection schrieb:

maxcoutinho schrieb: As usual, Jochen is a gem of a person to deal with (dare I say one of the best HiFi dealers I have come across) I will of course be doing quite a few purchases in the near future from him as and when funds allow. Max Hi Max, "Thanks for the flowers" as we would say in Germany when we receive a compliment. Thanks for your understanding also when a problem with the shipment cropped up in between Regards, Jochen

You are Welcome Jochen.

This is the way I look at it ....Problems can arise due to various situations which could be out of an individual's (read dealer's/customer's) control.

Now, how a dealer responds to and tackles these problems in order to ensure maximum Customer Satisfaction is what diffrenciates a Great Dealer from those wannabes who may have bucketloads of brands but no idea nor, more importantly, an inclination towards Customer Delight.

Thanks Manek for your wishes. I hope to enjoy my music, at least until the Bug Bites again.

Congrats Max,
Now you have nothing to do but listen to the music....
Purnendu

maxcoutinho schrieb:

FINALLY......I have bought a good Integrated amplifier It is the Trigon Energy Integrated. Tried it and it turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing so to say (at least in my system). Max

you know I was almost sure that Goolimangala would have suggested a BMC integrated amplifier.
Goolimangala, just wondering if the BMC integrated came up in the conversation & whether or not it was a fit for Max's needs? Thanks.

bombaywalla schrieb:

maxcoutinho schrieb: FINALLY......I have bought a good Integrated amplifier It is the Trigon Energy Integrated. Tried it and it turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing so to say (at least in my system). Max you know I was almost sure that Goolimangala would have suggested a BMC integrated amplifier. Goolimangala, just wondering if the BMC integrated came up in the conversation & whether or not it was a fit for Max's needs? Thanks.

The BMC integrated amp would have cost more than double the price of the Trigon Energy. It was therefore never seriously taken into consideration.
I think Max was considering for a short while to keep his attenuator and buy the Trigon mono blocks TRE 50M instead. But I think the integrated amp is the better solution in Max' case. It can drive the Wilson Benesch ARC with ease. So no need for more power.

From what I understand from the posts, there was the opportunity to sell more expensive stuff but the right solution was sold.

That's the value that a good dealer brings to the table.
One of the main contributors to customer satisfaction.

Regards

Manek

Manek schrieb:

From what I understand from the posts, there was the opportunity to sell more expensive stuff but the right solution was sold. Regards Manek

Hi Manek,

Yes the TRE 50M mono blocks are almost 30% more expensive than the Energy amp.But for the Energy, being also a dual mono design, channel separation is also pretty good. I do not know much about the attenuator that Max was using earlier with his Plinius amp. But I think that a really good integrated amp is perhaps the better option than an attenuator and very good mono amps. Who knows me a bit also knows that I'm not so much a fan of passive solution... neither for phono pres (step-up transformers) nor line pres.

Regards,
Jochen

I agree with you Manek. I think this time since my budget was limited, it prompted me to really dig deep into all the Pros and Cons of numerous amplifiers and finally came to the conclusion that the Energy was an Absolute VFM.

I could have bought the TRE 50M Monos, but then the whole search for a good Preamp and the related investment in terms of money, time and space wsa just not feasible. A good integrated ensured that the Pre-Power match was right. I did not need the extra power of the monos and the Channel seperation of the energy has not kept me wanting.

After going a full circle,at this point of time in my life, I am not really interested in all the various possibilites I could have but need just a few certainties which will allow me to enjoy music and life.

Max

Max

A good practical decision after a long hard search :-)

Manek

max, Great to hear and Congrats I just got the trigon Advance Phono and loved it !!

i would also give Jochen a 2 thumbs up. his advice/view is unbiased with idea is to provide a good solution rather than just his products blindly.

Arj schrieb:

max, Great to hear and Congrats I just got the trigon Advance Phono and loved it !! i would also give Jochen a 2 thumbs up. his advice/view is unbiased with idea is to provide a good solution rather than just his products blindly.

I fully agree with you Arj.....My next planned purchase is going to be a Vinyl setup from Jochen (Finance permitting). Praying that it happens soon.

Got over 100 records with no front end to play on

Max

Yes Max,

The analogue way is certainly the way to go when you want maximum fidelity to the original. Though a bit expensive and more difficult to handle and to maintain in comparison to digital media (CD & HardDisc), it's certainly the most natural in sound.

Regards,
Jochen

Arj schrieb:

max, Great to hear and Congrats I just got the trigon Advance Phono and loved it !! i would also give Jochen a 2 thumbs up. his advice/view is unbiased with idea is to provide a good solution rather than just his products blindly.

Hi Arj,

In a certain way I do blindly recommend my products because I stand for a certain kind of sound and performance which is a natural and warm, non-fatiguing sound. An analytical and cold sounding product you will never find in my portfolio because I just not like this kind of sound. So I don't want to sell it also .

Regards,
Jochen

Max, congratulations !!
I have partly seen you through your journey to find a good match for your WB Arc. Nice to know you met with someone who not only suggests good products but also deals in them and if you ask me is a "reference" as a dealer. I am yet to meet any other dealer with the quality of service and attitude like Jochen. I think it is partly because he is lot more an audiophile than dealer.

It is a very difficult art to get into hifi business and still remain a purist audiophile at heart. Most hifi dealers I come across actually were hard core audiophiles in the beginning but now act more like hard core businessmen. They may still act like audiophiles but their values clearly deteriorate. I dont see that happening with people like Jochen, and these make the best breed of dealers IMHO.

Too many flowers guys! Thank you

Jochen