Dealers having Demoroom + Equips

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Beitrag

Arj
Inventar

#51 erstellt: 25. Nov 2007, 19:02

Amp_Nut schrieb:

In my case:

Speakers : The Last 2 octaves of Bass
Amp: A Remote Volume Control, Enough power to drive the new speakers & more bass resolution

The tough criteria is that I do not wanna loose the Positives of my existing setup !

Amp_nut, Thanks for the response.. i guess anyone using bookshelf speakers and a manual int/pre amp will have these two problems

for point 1 the only two solutions are a speaker upgrade or integration of sub(s). while 1 is very expensive for the same sound quality the other is a tedious process to get right.

but regarding point 2..does not manually getting up to adjust the volume give the same old fashioned feeling of cleaning an LP record ? i have grown to rather like that

Amp_Nut schrieb:

The Positives of my Existing setup ( and happily they are my Key criteria for enjoyable listening) are :
1. Very Good Imaging and reproduction of the original location ambience - " A Being There" experience.
I am not too concerned ( maybe because my grapes are sour ?

) about whether the singer is 4 & half feet in height or 5feet 6 inches... or whether the 2 tablas are 2 feet or 4 feet apart...

2. REALISM of the reproduced sound is MOST important to me.

3. Resolution, such as distinctly hearing the micro-dynamics of a wire brush being rubbed on the drum skin, or clearly differentiating between a Cymbal struck with a stick or a wire brush ... THESE are important to me, and my existing system (IMHO) provides these clues very well.

totally with you here..imaging is anyway controlled by the recording engineer rather than anything else..but on the other hand it is a nice feeling whne on one of theose test discs you get the imaging exactly right..you know then that the system is "tuned"

id go further on point 3 and mentions about hearing rustling o papers, the light cough in the audience etc etc. you know then that the source is doing its job of extraction and the rest of the chain in carrying it without any loss.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I do not like excessive mid range energy or a tonal balance tilted towards the mid range, though I am OK with that for short listening sessions, but cant live with that on a long term basis.

Having said that, I find the SF Extrema and the 802D more similar than opposites in these departments. Hence the 802Ds don’t loose out on the Positives of the SF Extremas, but present a Warmer ( but equally detailed and revealing ) sound. The SF Extremas have a relatively 'Hot" treble, though not fierce or harsh.

The 802D Soundstage is also Better than the already VERY good soundstage that I get with the Extremas. The centre image on the 802Ds at the demo was the best I have ever heard in my life. I actually went up between the 2 speakers where there was a centre channel speaker ( not playing) to see it was playing, to enhance the centre image.

The 802Ds have a prominent Mid Bass bump, and if not controlled with proper placement, will muddy the sound BADLY. This is an important issue with these speakers.

Also I must point out that the B&W 800 series (800, 801 & 802 all floor standers ) are quite different animals (IMHO) to the lower priced B&W range... like a Lexus vs a Toyota or a Nikon DSLR vs a Nikon 8MP Shirt pocket shooter ...

This is good info..from what i do know the 800 series had always been designed for audiophiles if got right...and if not partnerred well or setup well can sound very dry and/or forward and sterile.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

P.S: Sorry for the Looong post
P.P.S: Thanks for the ‘ji’ suffix that many address me with.. PLEASE don’t. We are all equals, here and at all times.
I am as prone to be opinionated, irrational and pig-headed as most humans ..

LOng posts are Good as long as they are not a personal attack (and we do have enough of those)..and regrading the "ji" Yessir..done !

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#52 erstellt: 26. Nov 2007, 05:02

This is good info..from what i do know the 800 series had always been designed for audiophiles if got right...and if not partnerred well or setup well can sound very dry and/or forward and sterile.

Sorry to contradict, but in my experience, its quite the opposite. The B&W 800 series ( atleast the Floor standing models ) tend towards the more romantic, mushy, bland and with a bloated mid bass sound, if not set up and partnered well...

Even under the worst of situations, they Image well

Ofcourse this is my personal experience

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#53 erstellt: 26. Nov 2007, 05:10

Arj Said

I totally agree with you....

In this respect, the first 5 seconds of the 1st track of "Jazz By The Pawnshop" are BREATHTAKING

Manek
Inventar

#54 erstellt: 26. Nov 2007, 09:05

amp nut...Jazz at the pawnshop has got godd music throughout

manek.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#55 erstellt: 26. Nov 2007, 09:21

Manek ( & Prithvi) ....

I have not fully "Grown Up " ... Yet ...

Jeeves
Stammgast

#56 erstellt: 28. Nov 2007, 11:28

Kamal many thanks!

ani
Stammgast

#57 erstellt: 28. Nov 2007, 16:47

Hello all,

This thread on demo rooms was very interesting and except for AVI,Hermit,Nova and few others no new names came up. So that pretty much sums up the hifi/midfi scene.

Dear ANji, my experience with PL-1 and GR20 was pretty much the same as yours except that only the last octave was missing. I think the electronics do play a major role in image height and depth perception. PL though good has its limitations in those areas but it does wonder in bringing out the realism. The singers and instruments are there in real flesh and blood

The best part of that amp is that it tolerates compressed discs well, lets you hear the compression but one can enjoy the music at the same time. Pretty nice tube amp and a steal for the price.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#58 erstellt: 28. Nov 2007, 17:15

Hi ani,

I am Glad that you liked the PL-1.

Given my taste for ROCK, I think the PL-2 is STREETS ahead of the PL-1...

IMHO ofcourse

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#59 erstellt: 01. Feb 2008, 11:48

I had said :

I can vouch for the following price :

ITEM: B&W 802D Loudspeaker PAIR

International Retail Price : US $ 12,000

AVI Price : Rs 8,15,000 + Tax (In Mumbai I THINK its 17.5% sales Tax + probably 5% Octroi )
If my Tax and Octroic Figures are correct, it yields a net price of Rs 10,00,550.

Oh yes, all their transactions are 100% clean and Invoiced ONLY.

On The Other Hand :

1. They do have a Fantastic Stock... can even select and buy ex-stock these (expensive) speakers in ALL the wood finishes available.

2. Excellent Demo Rooms, and well set up equipment.

3. I was provided an Excellent, extended Audition, and a Huge Mug of coffee

If i wasnt so tight fisted, I would have bought. The demo experience was Superb !

bhagwan69 had said :

B&W 802D Loudspeaker PAIR
International Retail Price : US $ 12,000/-

Sir,

12/- K US $'s = Rs. 480/- K
VAT @ 12.5 %
Octroi @ 5.5 %
Total Tax = 16 % [sum total]

The List Price in India should be Rs. 560/-K

Ofcourse there is the customs duty and SAD.

However, most Indian importers accomodate most or all of the customs duty within the the 50% to 70% OFF they get from the manuafacturer on the MRP.

Also keep in mind that the Customs duty is paid on the Manufacture's price ( ie 50% to 70% less than the MRP)

On The Other Hand :

Few Indian Distys maintain Any Stocks , leave aside choice of wood finishes.

No staff.

No demo rooms or showrooms.

I am just trying to be fair and project both sides of the coin ...

Sorry to rake up this old issue, but I feel it only appropriate to publicly declare / confess that I was Wrong

I was earlier told that though B&W ensures that their dealers do Not discount the Recomended Retail Price, they allow a 15% discount in Hong Kong during the Chinese New Year.

Since that is comming up, I called HK today, to explore ...

The B&W 802D has a current Recomended retail Price in HK of US $ 15,384 or HK $ 120K.

Hence my earlier price calculations and expectations of a fair Indian price based on an International price of US $ 12K was WAY off.

Apologies

I will probably buy the 802Ds later this year - from A2V - when my 'Den' is ready.

bhagwan69
Inventar

#60 erstellt: 01. Feb 2008, 12:08

The B&W 802D has a current Recomended retail Price in HK of US $ 15,384 or HK $ 120K.

Respected Sir,

This itself is incorrect;

The Suggested Retail price 'was' US $'s 12/- K.
To the best of my humble understanding.

Kindly Check in Paragon - Singapore. With the B & W Dealer.
They may offer you the 'correct' suggested retail price.

p.s. Do you 'like' the look of the 802D or its 'voicing' ???

bhagwan69
Inventar

#61 erstellt: 01. Feb 2008, 14:12

Price References :-

http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/bw_802d.htm

http://www.hometheat...ox_System_p/802d.htm [14 K - here]

Speciications
Description: Three-way, floorstanding, reflex-loaded loudspeaker. Drive-units: 1" diamond-dome tweeter, 6" Kevlar FST-cone midrange unit, two 8" Rohacell-cone woofers. Crossover frequencies: 350Hz, 4kHz. Frequency response: 34Hz–28kHz, ±3dB, on axis (–6dB at 27Hz and 33kHz). Dispersion within 2dB of reference response: ±60° horizontal, ±10° vertical. Impedance: 8 ohms nominal, 3.5 ohms minimum. Sensitivity: 90dB/2.83V/m. Harmonic distortion (second and third harmonics, 90dB/m): <1% (40Hz–100kHz), <0.5% (70Hz–100kHz). Recommended amplification: 50–500W.
Dimensions: 44.7" (1138mm) H by 14.5" (363mm) W by 22.2" (565mm) D. Weight, each: 176 lbs (80kg) net, 196 lbs (89kg) shipping.
Finish: Rosenut-veneer with leather accents, woofer enclosure, lacquered Marlan (synthetic mineral-filled resin) mid and HF enclosures.
Serial numbers of units reviewed: 557, 558.
Price: $12,000/pair. Approximate number of dealers: 250.
Manufacturer: B&W Loudspeakers, Dale Road, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 2BH, England, UK. US: B&W Group North America, 54 North Concord Street, North Reading, MA 01864-2699. Tel: (978) 664-2870. Fax: (978) 664-4109. Web:

www.bwspeakers.com.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1205bw/index2.html

This might be a reliable price reference.......

[Beitrag von bhagwan69 am 01. Feb 2008, 14:23 bearbeitet]

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#62 erstellt: 01. Feb 2008, 16:22

Thanks for your inputs, bhagwan.

I wrote today

The B&W 802D has a current Recomended retail Price in HK of US $ 15,384 or HK $ 120K.

I wrote that 30 minutes after I spoke to B&W distributor in HK.

I had earlier TODAY called the B&W dealer in Mong Konk ( you know, less upmarket place... better price

) He told me that they do not sell the 800 series and I would have to speak to the B&W disty.

The HK 120K price was from the HK disty !

Me thinks, that like the rest of Audio & consumer products, the US market has the LOWEST prices compared to anywhere else in the world.

So its probably US $ 12 K in the US and US $ 15K3 for the rest of Earthlings

Will explore Spore and Dubai too....

Anyone knows For Sure, do post.

Thanks

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#63 erstellt: 01. Feb 2008, 16:29

p.s. Do you 'like' the look of the 802D or its 'voicing' ???

The looks and finish, I find superlative, so they DO get brownie points there.

The sound ... I have written my views on this thread

Hi Arj,

Very good question, and actually one of the key positives about the demo was that after I heard the B&W 802Ds with the Classe Universal Player ( used as a transport, feeding the Classe Pre and mono-blocks, I had the opportunity to hear them with a Rotel CD player ( analog out ) feeding the Classe electronics and then my electronics.

The Rotel CLEARLY restricted the system. The sound lacked resolution & dynamic range, but still pleasant though not Hi End..

I believe that Anyone buying a new Stereo component / upgrading, needs to define FIRST what they are missing and What they are therefore looking for in a new component.

In my case:

Speakers : The Last 2 octaves of Bass
Amp: A Remote Volume Control, Enough power to drive the new speakers & more bass resolution

The tough criteria is that I do not wanna loose the Positives of my existing setup !

The Positives of my Existing setup ( and happily they are my Key criteria for enjoyable listening) are :
1. Very Good Imaging and reproduction of the original location ambience - " A Being There" experience.
I am not too concerned ( maybe because my grapes are sour ? ) about whether the singer is 4 & half feet in height or 5feet 6 inches... or whether the 2 tablas are 2 feet or 4 feet apart...

2. REALISM of the reproduced sound is MOST important to me.

3. Resolution, such as distinctly hearing the micro-dynamics of a wire brush being rubbed on the drum skin, or clearly differentiating between a Cymbal struck with a stick or a wire brush ... THESE are important to me, and my existing system (IMHO) provides these clues very well.

I do not like excessive mid range energy or a tonal balance tilted towards the mid range, though I am OK with that for short listening sessions, but cant live with that on a long term basis.

Having said that, I find the SF Extrema and the 802D more similar than opposites in these departments. Hence the 802Ds don’t loose out on the Positives of the SF Extremas, but present a Warmer ( but equally detailed and revealing ) sound. The SF Extremas have a relatively 'Hot" treble, though not fierce or harsh.

The 802D Soundstage is also Better than the already VERY good soundstage that I get with the Extremas. The centre image on the 802Ds at the demo was the best I have ever heard in my life. I actually went up between the 2 speakers where there was a centre channel speaker ( not playing) to see it was playing, to enhance the centre image.

The 802Ds have a prominent Mid Bass bump, and if not controlled with proper placement, will muddy the sound BADLY. This is an important issue with these speakers.

Also I must point out that the B&W 800 series (800, 801 & 802 all floor standers ) are quite different animals (IMHO) to the lower priced B&W range... like a Lexus vs a Toyota or a Nikon DSLR vs a Nikon 8MP Shirt pocket shooter ...

I agree with yr statement that

I suppose the B&Ws do have a tendency to be categorised by a lot of people into the "Brand I love to hate" category.

I guess its because the company is successful, advertises and promotes its products ( most boutique brands cant afford that because their business is VERY small scale).

Also B&W 800 series products are made well, with superb fit and finish, even though most are now made in China ( much like Quad, the ipods etc etc ). These products provide a mix of both - Lifestyle values and performance. This lifestyle element is probably what has angered many... consciously or subconsciously.

OK, OK, I will stop... dont want to give the impression that B&W is the Best... they are simply Good.... with their basket of flaws too... IMHO again.

Also the B&W 800 series provide excellent VALUE in the price range. Sadly, that Value does not hold at their Rupee prices vis -a-vis other international products available here.

P.S: Sorry for the Looong post
P.P.S: Thanks for the ‘ji’ suffix that many address me with.. PLEASE don’t. We are all equals, here and at all times.
I am as prone to be opinionated, irrational and pig-headed as most humans ..

and

To me the 800 series have been iconic speakers, with a high aspirational value

In a Rs 5 to Rs 5.5 Lakh budget, I find them Great speakers, despite the mid-bass bump and possibly the ultimate bass resolution.

Its imaging EXCELS (IMHO). Ambience retrival is very good, as is the midrange.

Was driven beautifully by the Jeff Rowland ICE module amp ( 100Watts x 8 ohms and 200 Watts into 4 ohms ) Lots of detail, but subtly presented, not over-etched and 'In Your face"

The 802D is certainly Not the Best speaker I have heard ( I wonder if I can say that about ANY speaker... ) but for that price .... Hmmmmm

The Jeff Rowland Power Amp - IMHO does not look like much, and the Pre is even more in-impressive looking. They put out a Warm detailed sound, and the music flows easy.

Again IMHO, the Power Amp is an Exceptional buy in the international market @ US $ 1200. Here its Rs 90K.

The pre is about 50% more expensive. Not so sure of its VFM.

Both - Pre & power amps - small & light enough to hand carry back from a trip...

Incidentally, the 802Ds even played well with my 45Watt PL-2 Valve amp & Denon 2900 CD player.... as long as volume was not cranked up. Yeah, the Bass did not have the resolution, and the Demo Room was HUGE, hence I suspect will play at better levels in my own home.

Yes, I AM Smitten .... Anyways wishfull thinking ...