Help me . .find replacement - upgrade for Wadi 581i

Hi Ani,

You have the Wadia 581i. That is FANTASTIC !

The i indicates that it has Digital inputs, so you have a Painless, easy upgrade path for HDD playback, WITHOUT changing yr CD player. The fact that you love its sound, is Great... you dont need to change anything, just a a few extras.

Since you have asked for a detailed Explanation, here goes.....

1. The Wadia 581i accepts an SPDIF Digital input.

A soft option into HDD playback would be to buy the Wadia iDoc. It provides DIGITAL output from ANY Apple iPod. Load lossless files, and you are ready for HDD playback from your iPod, in a jiffy. The Wadia Doc even includes a Remote control to change tracks, and a Component video output...

The iDoc has been rave reviewed by many Audiophile rags, though measured performance shows Very high Jiter. It works well with digital inputs / DACs that can handle high input jitter. Presumably a Wadia CD Player + Wadia Doc will sing well.

2. If you want to get more serious, ....you will need to feed the Wadia CD player's SPDIF (RCA) input, via your computer ( Win or Mac ). For this you will need a USB ( from yr Computer) to SPDIF converter.

The Garden variety of these are available quite cheap... approx US $ 100.

However, there is a new variety - Async USB to SPDIDF converters, which IMHO are an ABSOLUTE MUST to get Audiophile sound.

msb1 is the expert in this department, and there are many solutions, including from HiACE and Empirical audio.

I wanted to highlight a relatively unknown one: Audiophilleo 1 USB audio to S/PDIF converter.

Would appreciate any views obn this product, from others...

The site also provides a nice summary of some serious Async USB to SPDIF converters : COMPARISION Of Async USB to SPDIF Converters

3. Besides your Wadia 581i + a USB to SPDIF Converter, all you need is a Laptop or desktop PC or MAC, with a USB out.

If you are not from the "Far Side" ( A Mac User )

All you need is a FOOBARFOOBAR. Its freeware and the best sounding Audio Playback software.... PERIOD.

Theere are TONS of software... and ANY Audio playback software can be used.... ranging from Win Media Player, to iTunes and JRiver. Most are more user friendly than FOOBAR, but none (IMHO ! ) sound as transparent as FOOBAR. You will need to configure FOOBAR to get it sounding its best, but that is a tweak which you can address, when you get there.

If you ARE from the "FAR SIDE" ( MAC User) you can use iTunes, but to get the Sound Quality of Foobar ( a PC only, Open Source application ) you will need to spend a few HUNDRED $s on AMAARA software.

The above is ALL you need to know to get started, and get HDD playback out of your Wadia 581i. Total investment is approx US $ 100 or more depending on the Async USB to SPDIF converter you buy. Rest is Instant Gratification !

Hi Ani,
Before recommending anything, I just want to state something in general regarding HDD playback.

If you want to get in to HDD playback simply because of the "Future is HDD" buzz, or because some people say that HDD playback is equal or better compared to CDs etc...I am not sure if that is a nice way to proceed from here.

I totally agree with the convinience HDD playback brings with it but thats it...no more no less.
That too, how much you value that convenience depends on many things. Like:

1. How many CDs you have.
2. How painful is it for you to find a CD in your rack.
3. Do you like listening to one full CD at a time or do you like to listen in an assorted fashion from different CDs.
4. Do you like changing CDs by hand (at least I do).

There are many more intangible things to list out.

I understand that there is a lot of buzz about High Definition content being made available for download which can be played uncompressed through an HDD...but they are hardly anything compared to the amount of music we currently have on CDs. Moreover, even in future there will be a lot of music that may not be available for download even at the quality of a well pressed CD. You would want to play them off your CD always.

While I see that a high quality HDD playback is possible using some very high end dCS-like products like what Bhagwan has achieved but thats between far and few.

And, of course, we still see many new high end CD players coming up even today, like the Rega Isis, BMC Audio, Einstein's latest version of "The Last Record Player", many more. They are all improving upon their own designs while still doing pure CD playback.

I think it is long before anything significant is going to happen in HDD playback which can dislodge CD playback in a convincing manner. when that happens, it would make some sense to get in to it. Trying to beat the market may not really be a great idea unless you have other reasons to get in to it..IMHO of course

ani schrieb:

Dear All I am looking for a replacement for my Wadia 581i. I very much like this Wadia kind of presentation, so you all can get an idea on my taste. It is 3yrs old and would like to look for greener pastures Would like your valuable suggestions regarding 1. Recomended single Box CDP 2. Is it time to shift to HDD storage based playback ? 3. If HDD based please suggest a suitable complete system, detailed list along with function of each item (I have no idea about the various methods of implementing HDD based digital playback) Thanking you all in advance. Anil

Anil, why do you want to change your Wadia 581i?? what's wrong with it's sound?
OR, do you have a change bug - "oh-oh, 3 yrs have gone by & I simply must buy another CDP"??

Also, the feedback from Amp_Nut is very good & detailed. Like he wrote, your 581i is a very flexible machine & you can do a lot more w/ it rather than just dumping it for another CDP. Have you thought about these other options OR did you just get a jhatka one day & decide to dump the 581i??

Hi !

I have 2 Meridian 808i.2's for sale.
1 player is used & the other is brand new;
Both have different prices, so if you are looking
for a 'serious' upgrade - you know who to call.
The Meridian is one of the BEST 1 BOX CD Players that money can buy.

I will write on HDD playback in a while....
However, I used to use the Meridian for its DAC along with my Weiss Minerva. Just to let you know.

I do not have a CD Player now - I am down the HDD playback route - 100 %

BTW I just got my Video Server made today.
Purchased a HDMI Cable from SNV - Pune - Chord.
It should get 'loaded' in a few days. Will start a different thread for it !

abhi.pani schrieb:

1. How many CDs you have. 2. How painful is it for you to find a CD in your rack. 3. Do you like listening to one full CD at a time or do you like to listen in an assorted fashion from different CDs. 4. Do you like changing CDs by hand (at least I do). :)

1 - does it matter ?
2 - may or may not be difficult.
3 - depends on kind of music - western & indian classical - full cd & other generes - assorted tracks.
4 - I used to love it - now I do it on my i-touch !!

Sir,
I was a hard core - non computer - traditionalist.
However, did a lot of A / B & the Computer is not only better from the convenience point of view - but also better sonically.
I used to play a CD in the Meridian 808i.2 & a rip of the same from my HDD via the Meridian DAC.
All Power Cords & I/C's were same & the HDD sounded 'better' to my 'ears'
So I changed over.

Basically what ever you do, get a 1 box player that has a 'digital input' so you can have best of both worlds.
I have 5 K CD's but also have 2.5 TB of Wave & Flac & then is 'brilliant' !!

I recommend HDD very strongly !
All must change, you have no clue as to what the advantages are....
I have never on this forum ever 'recommended' anything as strongly as I am doing this - so you can get an idea of how convinced I am....

I used to play a CD in the Meridian 808i.2 & a rip of the same from my HDD via the Meridian DAC.

I suppose you were using the Weiss Minerva as the SPDIF converter...which costs $5k .

As I said, it might be possible but the number of options available in the market to get the HDD going (meaning, letting it sound SOTA) is between far and few and not at all cheap.

When the HDD playback becomes a regular affair, I am sure we would have enough options at every price point to assemble an HDD playback system to sound better than CDPs at least around that price point.

E.g, An HDD based transport system (including all its accessories) costing say $3k should handsomely beat a stand alone CD transport costing about the same. That's when I would like to call it a day with CD transports and obviously accept that they are inferior to HDD playback.

As of today this is not the case AFAIK.

Hi,
Thank you all for the response.

AN- You have enlightened me with the basics of HDD system and its components. I'll sure first think about keeping Wadia as a DAC.

Abhi - I am the old school type, listenes to CD because LP's of all the music I like are not available

I listen to whole disk in one go, in fact it depends on the kind of music. Gets a bunch of CD's or LP's and play them one by one, may even read the sleeve notes again

More than easy of use it is the problem and limited life of most CD player transport that made me think of HDD. Finding a single BOX CDP that suits my taste for around $10k is what I am looking for. Most of the new generation CDP are in the region of $15k plus.

Bombaywalla-- I am scared that the transport may fail and getting a new one from wadia will take months

Bhagwan - Yes I have your number I take your advice on HDD seriously, in fact feel bit sheepish in getting rid of that beautiful CHORD DAC64 !!!

Regards

Anil

I would like to add a pointer to all that has been said above, regarding convenience and ease of use.

I agree that HDD playback provides for almost instant search of any song in a HDD collection. Anyone who has used iTunes will vouch for that.

However, using a computer keyboard for searching and accessing songs, via a computer interface is to me ... like watching TV on a computer.... Not my cup of tea.

For truly superb User friendliness and a near 'Ultimate' user interface ( I know .... there is NO Ultimate ! ) IMHO is the QSONIX touch controlled system.

Do visit the site and check it out. I have experienced the Product... Its SUPERB. Its available in India and costs approx US $ 4K. The built in DAC is a JOKE by audiophile standards, so you are really paying for the user interface and the software. You can attach an external DAC.

Given budgets of a Great DAC today, the US $ 4K is not unreasonable, and REALLY will make HDD playback a Real world, user friendly product, rather than the Computer + Audiophile Patch-work (IMHO ! ) of todays PC + OS + HDD + Mouse + Keyboard soutions.

And talking of Wadia.... QSONIX and Wadia have recently declared a marketing tie up, and promises have been made to unviel a slew of new solutions shortly !

I am quoting from the Wadia - QSINIX Press release :

Going forward, Wadia Digital audio technologies will be built into all new Qsonix generations of music management systems, further heightening already stellar audio performance. Additionally, exciting digital audio solutions from both companies are on the immediate horizon. Some of these will build on a strong foothold in the robust Apple arena where Wadia’s technological genius fulfills bit perfect audio output from the iPod. “The entire team is excited about maximizing the possibilities of our alliance with Qsonix,” said John W. Schaffer, president of Wadia Digital, Inc. “Naturally, we’re extremely pleased to include Qsonix music management systems with our offerings. But stay tuned—our shared, deep passion for high-end performance reproduction and performance audio puts us genuinely in sync and is our springboard to more great ideas and products.” Qsonix CEO, Oscar Ciornei said, “Our alliance with Wadia Digital is one that draws on the best of both worlds to build and bring to market the ultimate high-performance music server. Qsonix will focus on our core expertise, which is digital music software development and rely on Wadia Digital for their specialized knowledge within the realm of digital audio components and technologies. The future looks very promising for both of us as the digital storage market continues to evolve.”

P.S: I am not associated and infact do not even own a single product from QSONIX and Wadia....

IMHO the HDD need could be for
1. Pure convenience of Music at your fingertips
2. Enjoying Hi-rez music (higher than CD quality) with higher resolution etc.

for me 2. is not a choice as most of my music is on CDs and the HDD versions are all CD quality... and the jury is still out on quality of music is ripped from a CD using a PC.

point 1 is an interesting option an my experiments with entry level stuff have left me excited at the future prospect but disappointed at the current offerings. Am very willing to wait for this to trickle down and stabilise and we all get a clearer understanding of this

Hi AN,

I had read about the wadia QSINIX tie up and in fact it was one of the reason for me to look at HDD

I am wondering about companies that have the resources to develop and market such products.

Many audiophile audio only manufacturers may find the going tough when it comes to integrated Audio+Computer products.

Arj Said:

point 1 is an interesting option an my experiments with entry level stuff have left me excited at the future prospect but disappointed at the current offerings.

Do take a look at QSONIX. There is a flash demo on their site too...

ani schrieb:

Dear All I am looking for a replacement for my Wadia 581i. I very much like this Wadia kind of presentation, so you all can get an idea on my taste. It is 3yrs old and would like to look for greener pastures Would like your valuable suggestions regarding 1. Recomended single Box CDP 2. Is it time to shift to HDD storage based playback ? 3. If HDD based please suggest a suitable complete system, detailed list along with function of each item (I have no idea about the various methods of implementing HDD based digital playback) Thanking you all in advance. Anil

Dear Anil,

I would strongly recommend the dCS Puccini with the U-Clock.

Its the only single box cd player in the world to upsample to dsd via its digital inputs.

With the U-Clock you could use a pc/mac as your source as well.

This way you have best of both worlds - Cd & Hdd.

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/product/puccini-cd-sacd-player

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/product/puccini-u-clock


Regards
SNV

I have moved 100% to PC Audio playback.

Using Foobar controlled with an Ipod Touch. Superb Interface.
All CD's ripped lossless (0% compression)

I will be selling my Cary Audio SACD 306 Pro CD player shortly. Mint condition. I upgraded my Wadia 861 to this which was a HUGE upgrade. In comparison, the Wadia sounded bright (electronic) and didnt have the warmth, bass extension and resolution of the Cary.

The Cary has digital inputs (AES, Optical and Spdif) and also oversamples to 768. I am presently using it as a DAC and will be getting a dedicated USB DAC soon, hence the sale.

PM if you're interested in the player.

All CD's ripped lossless (0% compression)

Hi msb1,
How did you rip the CD ? Did you use a basic computer CD ROM drive to do it ?

msb1 schrieb:

I will be selling my Cary Audio SACD 306 Pro CD player shortly. Mint condition. I upgraded my Wadia 861 to this which was a HUGE upgrade. In comparison, the Wadia sounded bright (electronic) and didnt have the warmth, bass extension and resolution of the Cary.

If the 861 sounded bright this leads me to believe that you might have other issues in your system - cables? preamp? lack of rack isolation for the Wadia? Or, you might not be leaving the Wadia on for 48-72 hrs before critical listening?
bass extension, resolution are strong suits of the Wadia - they always have been.
I agree the Wadia is not a warm (dark) sounding player - its sonics trend more towards the neutral/accurate side.
FWIW. IMHO.

ani schrieb:

Hi, Bombaywalla-- I am scared that the transport may fail and getting a new one from wadia will take months Regards Anil

Anil, the transport mechanisms are really far more robust than you think. For example, I am still using a Sony DVP-7000S that was manuf in 1998! It's the original transport going strong till today. No issues reading CD, CD-R, CD-RW. Now how old is this transport???
The Wadia 581i is, in comparison, a very recent transport & it should last you a good 10+ years & more(unless you purposely rattle the chassis, transport the CDP in the trunk of your car without locking the transport mechanism or willfully man-handle the chassis). How many times have you read on Audiogon that people are still happy owners of Wadia 2000, Wadia 27/270 transport/DAC & other older Wadias that are still going strong today???
Heck, we have our own Abhi Pani running an older (it must be more than 10 yrs old) TEAC VRDS transport! I believe that he does not have any issues.
From my personal experience I would not worry so much about the transport failing. If you are so paranoid, call Wadia & order a replacement transport & store it away for that rainy day.

Yes, I use a 15 year old Transport .
I dont think one needs a complete transport mechanism, at the max a replacement laser kit is all that one needs, which should be easily available for this recent player.

I always envy you guys who have transports that live on and on.

I have had almost all CD player lens assemblies die on me.

My 1st CD Player was a Denon

Next was a Sony 555ES. Luckily that still works for the friend I sold it to.

Next was a Denon 2900 Universal Player. Lens assy died. Replaced. Player works, with me.

Now using an Electrocompaniet EMC-1. Got it used at a Great price, after its Transport was changed to a new one ... List price of Transport replacement ... Euro 1000.

There was also a TEAC VRDS for which the (Mumbai Based) owner asked me to get him a lens assembly... the 2nd he was changing in 5 years.

Ani, stay with yr gut feel. Get rid of it. CD player assemblies, like most great men, always fade away.....

If its more than 3 years old, its living on borrowed time...

abhi.pani schrieb:

All CD's ripped lossless (0% compression) Hi msb1, How did you rip the CD ? Did you use a basic computer CD ROM drive to do it ?

How else can you rip ?
I too would love to know...
I use db power amp to rip in flac.

bombaywalla schrieb:

msb1 schrieb: I will be selling my Cary Audio SACD 306 Pro CD player shortly. Mint condition. I upgraded my Wadia 861 to this which was a HUGE upgrade. In comparison, the Wadia sounded bright (electronic) and didnt have the warmth, bass extension and resolution of the Cary. If the 861 sounded bright this leads me to believe that you might have other issues in your system - cables? preamp? lack of rack isolation for the Wadia? Or, you might not be leaving the Wadia on for 48-72 hrs before critical listening? bass extension, resolution are strong suits of the Wadia - they always have been. I agree the Wadia is not a warm (dark) sounding player - its sonics trend more towards the neutral/accurate side. FWIW. IMHO.

Hello M.N. !
I have owned & used both the above mentioned players;
imho the Cary 306 SACD Pro is leagues ahead of the Wadia.
I have not used the 581 so no comments, but the Cary sure is a 'serious' machine.
I had liked it.
MSB preferred the 306 to the 808i.2.
I personally preferred the 808i.2 & hence the Cary was sold off.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

There was also a TEAC VRDS for which the (Mumbai Based) owner asked me to get him a lens assembly... the 2nd he was changing in 5 years. Ani, stay with yr gut feel. Get rid of it. CD player assemblies, like most great men, always fade away..... If its more than 3 years old, its living on borrowed time...

Yes, that Teac VRDS that you 'changed' I am aware of.

Nice line...

[quote="abhi.pani"][quote]
Hi msb1,
How did you rip the CD ? Did you use a basic computer CD ROM drive to do it ?[/quote]

Yes a Sony DVD Writer. Ripped using dbpoweramp with Accuraterip in secure mode. Accuraterip checks the rip with an online database to confirm CRC accracy. Secure mode does extra passes to ensure all data is read.

bombaywalla schrieb:

If the 861 sounded bright this leads me to believe that you might have other issues in your system - cables? preamp? lack of rack isolation for the Wadia? Or, you might not be leaving the Wadia on for 48-72 hrs before critical listening? bass extension, resolution are strong suits of the Wadia - they always have been. I agree the Wadia is not a warm (dark) sounding player - its sonics trend more towards the neutral/accurate side. FWIW. IMHO.

Hi,

The Wadia was a good player but nowehere near the Cary as also rightly mentioned by Bhagwan.
It was definitely Bright as compared to the Cary in the same setup and didnt come close to the resolution and bass extension of the Cary. I had to reinforce a cupboard that started rattling with the bass as soon as I put the Cary in.

SACD playback takes it further up a few notches but I only have a few SACD's so rarely hear them.

SACD playback takes it further up a few notches but I only have a few SACD's so rarely hear them.

Therefore, I would not 'sell' the Cary;
Get a DAC - if you must, however the Cary should stay.
1 CD Player in the chain is a good idea - imho.

Besides, SACD's cannot be ripped.
I have realised, I have 200 ++ titles & none can be played. i.e. after my Cary got 'sold' !

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Therefore, I would not 'sell' the Cary; Get a DAC - if you must, however the Cary should stay. 1 CD Player in the chain is a good idea - imho. Besides, SACD's cannot be ripped. I have realised, I have 200 ++ titles & none can be played. i.e. after my Cary got 'sold' !

I own some 8 SACD's. Haven't used the CD part of the Cary in 3 months. It's a waste using a CD player of this calibre as a DAC. Also, the USB/SPDIF interface I am presently using was bought to test the format only. I need a USB DAC.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: All CD's ripped lossless (0% compression) Hi msb1, How did you rip the CD ? Did you use a basic computer CD ROM drive to do it ? How else can you rip ? I too would love to know... I use db power amp to rip in flac. :(

I am not sure. Even I am not an expert in this area. However, I am only wondering of couple of things:

1. Can jitter be introduced while ripping a CD ? Meaning, can the ripped file have jitter (timing) related errors in it ? As I understand, jitter cannot be measured by comparing two ripped files. Only data can be compared at max.

2. CDs are not read as bits but words. When there is a data loss because a particular word could not be read successfully after multiple pass, there is a data loss and that data is approximated by some algorithm. Can any algorithm in this world predict the data which constructs the tone of a musical instrument accurately ?

I suppose a Pie-Tracer is created only to solve this basic problem of reading a disc with least data loss and jitter.

I asked this question since you guys are going in depth into this subject and may be you would have figured out other ways of ripping files.

abhi.pani schrieb:

I am not sure. Even I am not an expert in this area. However, I am only wondering of couple of things: 1. Can jitter be introduced while ripping a CD ? Meaning, can the ripped file have jitter (timing) related errors in it ? As I understand, jitter cannot be measured by comparing two ripped files. Only data can be compared at max. 2. CDs are not read as bits but words. When there is a data loss because a particular word could not be read successfully after multiple pass, there is a data loss and that data is approximated by some algorithm. Can any algorithm in this world predict the data which constructs the tone of a musical instrument accurately ? I suppose a Pie-Tracer is created only to solve this basic problem of reading a disc with least data loss and jitter. I asked this question since you guys are going in depth into this subject and may be you would have figured out other ways of ripping files.

Abhi, from what I know , Jitter is an issue only with SPDIF. so once you convert to a "soft copy" there is no clock and hence no jitter.
Jitter will become an issue only when this is reconverted to SPDIF or I2S and the quality of the converter clock is very important
the Reed Solomon Algorithm is perhaps the only one which can do this..and good readers like EAC/dbPower amp do multiple passes and remove the need to a large extent for this algorithm to approximate the same

bhagwan69 schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: msb1 schrieb: I will be selling my Cary Audio SACD 306 Pro CD player shortly. Mint condition. I upgraded my Wadia 861 to this which was a HUGE upgrade. In comparison, the Wadia sounded bright (electronic) and didnt have the warmth, bass extension and resolution of the Cary. If the 861 sounded bright this leads me to believe that you might have other issues in your system - cables? preamp? lack of rack isolation for the Wadia? Or, you might not be leaving the Wadia on for 48-72 hrs before critical listening? bass extension, resolution are strong suits of the Wadia - they always have been. I agree the Wadia is not a warm (dark) sounding player - its sonics trend more towards the neutral/accurate side. FWIW. IMHO. Hello M.N. ! I have owned & used both the above mentioned players; imho the Cary 306 SACD Pro is leagues ahead of the Wadia. I have not used the 581 so no comments, but the Cary sure is a 'serious' machine. I had liked it. MSB preferred the 306 to the 808i.2. I personally preferred the 808i.2 & hence the Cary was sold off. :D

OK. your opinion is different from mine - that's OK with me.

(Also, please use forum names. that would be appreciated. )

Interesting Post at AA by Srajan Ebaen

April Music's CD machines all have USB starting with the affordable 100 separates through the 500 all the way to their top deck. As other posters have noted, even a super Philips PRo2 or Esoteric-based transport/CD player no longer outperforms well-done computer audio by definition on the transport side of things. It's a bit hard to justify the long green then on a CDP with USB - unless you have lots of CDs and prefer spinning them rather than streaming them from a hard drive or solid-state memory. As Thorsten said, if a designer implements his USB transceiver path properly, that input should sound as good (or slightly better) than the S/PDIF path (or internal transport-to-DAC connection). I have (and still do) owned a number of expensive CDPs running VRDS or PRO2 transports. I transitioned to an iMac and haven't regretted it for one moment. Having traditional CDP comparators in house has afforded more than one A/B. Folks who claim that CD players, no matter the transport ingenuity and expense, sound better than the same DAC fed from a hard drive must have a lot better ears than I -:)

Not sure on how much to believe but he is a pretty credible guy

msb1 schrieb:

I own some 8 SACD's. Haven't used the CD part of the Cary in 3 months. It's a waste using a CD player of this calibre as a DAC. Also, the USB/SPDIF interface I am presently using was bought to test the format only. I need a USB DAC.

MSB, you mentioned you want to go th Mac way.. from what i heard they have a problem playing FLCA and cannot play Apes/wv etc etc.. are you planning to use the FLAC plugin ?

also would you be able to share the current crop of USB DACs you are considering ?

also would you be able to share the current crop of USB DACs you are considering ?

Million $ question...
We are all [at least on this side of the pond] in the look for that 'perfect' USB DAC !!
It is a 'trial & error' thing.

In audio - everything is so damn subjective.
What I may like B-wala may not like. What A.P. likes, I may not like. Siva loves a particular 'tone' & I may or may not be in a position to communicate with it !

So for me, it is a listen & learn [try to] thing...

Even MSB likes a certain type of sound & we do not see - eye to eye - on the front end...

Arj schrieb:

MSB, you mentioned you want to go th Mac way.. from what i heard they have a problem playing FLCA and cannot play Apes/wv etc etc.. are you planning to use the FLAC plugin ? also would you be able to share the current crop of USB DACs you are considering ?

Hi,

I was considering using a Mac Mini as I was looking at a firewire DAC and also like the capability of using my Ipod to control the library.

I have found a plugin for Foobar that allows me to control it from my IPOD in the same way. This is working extremely well.

I have also decided to get a USB DAC. Many other consideration (Empirical, EMM, Vekian, etc.) including a custom built one. Will provide some details on this later when I have finalised.

Hence sticking to PC.

bombaywalla schrieb:

OK. your opinion is different from mine - that's OK with me.

Bombaywalla,

I compared the Wadia and Cary in my setup. I expected a minor change but what I got was a vast improvement (IMHO).
I A/B'd them with various tracks and 10/10 times I liked the Cary. I would not have kept the Cary and sold the Wadia otherwise.

As Bhagwan pointed out, everyone has their own tastes and choices. I did prefer the Cary over the 808.2i - I found the sound to be richer and more involving. At the time I was not considering a CDP change.

Hence, YMMV.

Bombaywalla, I compared the Wadia and Cary in my setup. I expected a minor change but what I got was a vast improvement (IMHO). I A/B'd them with various tracks and 10/10 times I liked the Cary. I would not have kept the Cary and sold the Wadia otherwise.

10/10 ?
Interesting....
The Cary is a great 'bargain' in hi-end audio - imho.
What it does for the price is super...

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Bombaywalla, I compared the Wadia and Cary in my setup. I expected a minor change but what I got was a vast improvement (IMHO). I A/B'd them with various tracks and 10/10 times I liked the Cary. I would not have kept the Cary and sold the Wadia otherwise. 10/10 ? Interesting.... The Cary is a great 'bargain' in hi-end audio - imho. What it does for the price is super...

Not rating it 10/10... saying it sounded better to me than the Wadia 10 out of 10 times.

Arj schrieb:

Interesting Post at AA by Srajan Ebaen April Music's CD machines all have USB starting with the affordable 100 separates through the 500 all the way to their top deck. As other posters have noted, even a super Philips PRo2 or Esoteric-based transport/CD player no longer outperforms well-done computer audio by definition on the transport side of things. It's a bit hard to justify the long green then on a CDP with USB - unless you have lots of CDs and prefer spinning them rather than streaming them from a hard drive or solid-state memory. As Thorsten said, if a designer implements his USB transceiver path properly, that input should sound as good (or slightly better) than the S/PDIF path (or internal transport-to-DAC connection). I have (and still do) owned a number of expensive CDPs running VRDS or PRO2 transports. I transitioned to an iMac and haven't regretted it for one moment. Having traditional CDP comparators in house has afforded more than one A/B. Folks who claim that CD players, no matter the transport ingenuity and expense, sound better than the same DAC fed from a hard drive must have a lot better ears than I -:) Not sure on how much to believe but he is a pretty credible guy

I have heard the 47 Labs Pi-Tracer in my setup...the improvement over the CD-Pro2 was quite drastic...not small.

The CD-Pro2 itself was an good improvement over Philips CDM transport (found in Electrocompaniet).

So I find it very difficult to believe transport will not make a difference !!

I have tried playing SPDIF from a computer as well...I do not think it was as good as playing via CD-PRO2.

However, I will agree USB is better than SPDIF....but this is not to say the overall sound ripped from a CD will sound good via USB !!. It is still the overall setup that matters..

The philosophy behind Pi-Tracer is quite (actually "very") simple...there is no hi-end technology involved. The only thing that pi-tracer does is that it arrests the vibrataion due to the two motors (for CD rotation and another for lens) very very effectively...thats all. It is a very basic science...how can it be ignored ?.

Infact - some day - I intend to strip the outer shell of CD-Pro2M and replace it with a much stronger solid-aluminium shell that would be CNC'ed for this purpose. That would be an intresting project..

Thank you all, this has been an interesting read and enlighting one too.

The future looks like to be for storage based playback, with many coming out wit hhi resolution downloand.

Two among us Bhagwan and MSB have already coverted to Computer based plyback system.

The implementation of PC based system is where I have to keep my watch.

I feel that if the USB data can be buffeered and clocked to a stable clock and then fed to a DAC it can eliminate the complex sequential data read out from the CD. Very easy to say for someone who have no idea how it can be done

Regarding Wadia sound - Bhagwan and MSB finds 861 bit 'clinical' compared to other players. I have used 861 and 581i, and would like note my observation.

In 861 what I liked most is the way it presented transient, body and decay of sound, for eg. the crash of a cymbal one can clearly hear the moment of impact, then the whole sound gathers body when the whole cymbal starts to vibrate and its decay. This quality made it easy to differentiate between heavy and light cymbals and this in turn can be heard in all kinds of sound produced by it. Overall it had a natural sort of sound compared to other CDP I had heard.

581i had all the above mentioned qualities along with something that made me more comfortable May be it is the way the decaying part of a sound presented by it that made the difference. The bass is stronger with more natural decay, both male voca and female vocal better by not being chesty and screechy respectively ( this is in comparison to 861, please pardon me for using chesty and screechy cannot find the apt words).

In short 581 is very different from 861.

Regards

Anil

Computer Audio - NOT DONE RIGHT - can sound very poor.
I learnt the hard way;
My computer skills are 'below' par.
However - sbfx [our forum member] not only set it up for me - but 'tweaked' it too.
After the work was done - it [HDD] plays better than most CD Players we have compared it to.
Audio Aero Capitole
Audio Aero Prestige 'signature'
Meridian 808i.2

The only player that 'equaled' the HDD playback was the BT - ZZ EIght - V8 - 2009 version.
The difference between the HDD & the CD Player came down to the interconnect that was used to playback.
Where ever the Bertram Proxima II was used - sounded better.

Sorry Bhagwan. My computer skills are quite okay ...

I have explained the rational many times on this forum.....the problem really is not about tweaking a computer.

Further many commerically available CD players/Transport do not provide a good solution for SPDIF transmission...it compounds the problem.

So I'll agree commercially available CD players are bad...but one cannot hold the science responsible.

For example, the SPDIF transmission taken from CD-Pro2 module will not be very good. In my transport, I take the I2S, reclock and then transfer to SPDIF via a dedicated circuit, involving a high quality transformer. How many transport really do that...The difference is very obvious when you look at the signal in an oscilloscope.

sivat schrieb:

Sorry Bhagwan. My computer skills are quite okay ... I have explained the rational many times on this forum.....the problem really is not about tweaking a computer.

Siva, I am sure your computer skills are super;
I was not commenting on your skills, I just said that my skills were poor - they really are - no jokes.

When I wrote 'tweaked' I was not referring to the clocking speed of the cpu etc.
What I meant was as under :-
No Sound Card to be used in the HDD Playback.
RME / EBU / M Audio / Lynx etc.
Take a digital out on USB to BT DAC or take a 13944 firewire out to a Weiss Minerva & then let the Weiss do the D to D conversion for me. The spdif out from the Weiss was miles ahead of the spdif out from the computer - we compared that too.

Basically, if the HDD is done in a 'particular' manner & the SSD's are installed, I do believe that the performance will surely improve. That is the next step to do. Change the HDD's to SSD's [cost is a major issue] !

Sivat said:

The CD-Pro2 itself was an good improvement over Philips CDM transport (found in Electrocompaniet).

Hi Siva... we had addressed this in an earlier post too, where you had said that my Electrocompaniet EMC UP-1 CD Player utilises the Philips CDM mech.

I had at that time also pointed out to you that the CD player DOES Use The Philips Pro Mech.

Do check out the CD's Page on the manuafcturer's website :
Electrocompaniet EMC UP-1 CD Player

FWIW, I am quoting from that page :

Digital section Latest version of Phillips CD PRO Top loading drive unit 24 Bit upsampler 192KHz DAC Digital out RCA/XLR

Cheers

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Sivat said: The CD-Pro2 itself was an good improvement over Philips CDM transport (found in Electrocompaniet). Hi Siva... we had addressed this in an earlier post too, where you had said that my Electrocompaniet EMC UP-1 CD Player utilises the Philips CDM mech. I had at that time also pointed out to you that the CD player DOES Use The Philips Pro Mech. Do check out the CD's Page on the manuafcturer's website : Electrocompaniet EMC UP-1 CD Player FWIW, I am quoting from that page : Digital section Latest version of Phillips CD PRO Top loading drive unit 24 Bit upsampler 192KHz DAC Digital out RCA/XLR Cheers :)

Amp_Nut,

We had replaced the transport in one of the older players (actually was owned by Bhagwan and sold by FZ to some in BLR in a very bad shape !!).

That was when we relaized it was CDM...and we had purchased the replacement from Singapore. I had myself removed the player and there was not way a CDPro2M/LF could have been fitted into it.

Probably the new ones comes with the CD-Pro2Lf modules..but i'm not aware.

Regards
Siva.

Bhagwan,

I was not referring to tweaking the CPU either....

There is only so much that can be achieved by tweaking the interface between a DAC and the computer...

The PCM/Redbook format is really the culprit. These are not formats designed for use in a computer setup...and requires a different approach to solve the problems associated with it. (Extensively discussed earlier).

Regards
Siva.

We had replaced the transport in one of the older players (actually was owned by Bhagwan and sold by FZ to some in BLR in a very bad shape !!).

Hello Siva !

What player was this ?

Who is FZ ?

I am a bit lost;
I do not remember selling any player of mine to any one in Bangalore.... Please do shed some light...
Appreciate it...

Siva, the replacement that you did, was probably MANY moons ago ( or a rather old model... probably a pre 2001 model, though you would have repaired it MUCH later)! That (pre 2001 model) was when the player was NOT 24/192 Upsampling ... I suspect.

Yes, now it IS a Philips Pro Mech.

Incidentally, the Transport replacement from EC for this CD player is priced at approx Euros 1,100.

Regards

bhagwan69 schrieb:

We had replaced the transport in one of the older players (actually was owned by Bhagwan and sold by FZ to some in BLR in a very bad shape !!). Hello Siva ! What player was this ? Who is FZ ? I am a bit lost; I do not remember selling any player of mine to any one in Bangalore.... Please do shed some light... Appreciate it...

Got it from Delhi...I remember you telling me that it could have been your player. It was possibly damaged in the transportation to BLR..

Got it from Delhi...I remember you telling me that it could have been your player. It was possibly damaged in the transportation to BLR..

Still lost;

What was the Brand ?
Model ?
Who is FZ ?
Was it a player that I had owned ?

Simaudio Moon Eclipse CD Player [Serial Number A-211294-CD] Electrocompaniet EMC-1 24/192 CD Player [Serial Number 01334] Audiomeca Mephisto II CD Transport [Serial Number 2001045] Audiomeca Enkiantus 24/192 DAC [Serial Number 2001073] Metronome T1A MK II Transport + UP Sampler Metronome C1A MK III Tube 24/192 DAC Metronome Technologies - T-1i CD Player [Serial Number 02041] Wadia 861-B CD Player [Serial # 086 130 0343] Mimetism 20.1 CD Player [Serial # L6-129] Cary Audio CD 306 SACD Professional [Serial # 08306PV6044 - Black] Meridian 808i.2 Signature Reference CD Player [Serial # 808-200379] Bow Technologies ZZ Eight - 2008 Version - V8 [Serial # 1528] - Signature [BT] Weiss Minerva - 1394 Firewire DAC - Black [Serial # 1118] Digital Audio Denmark – DAD – DAC AX24 [Serial Number – AX24-00193]