FS + SUB or FS for Stereo

When you select the 20k FS, go for bookshelf speakers only, so you are not compromising on the quality. Then add a good quality sub and you get the best of both worlds. The down side is that good subs with real extension and which do not “BOOM” can cost a bomb. Try out the Lithos sub instead of the boomy budget subs from Jbl etc…Good imported subs can be had from SVS and HSU but they may push you over the budget.

HI ,
Thanks , The 20K FS is coda 90, it has comparable high and mids with 40K FS (jamo 855), but not the bass, so now since the sub will handle te lows, does this affect the overall quality of the music reproduction.
Cheers
sat

Have you bought the coda 90 already? If I am not mistaken, it is not a bookshelf speaker. It is a floor stander with a side firing woofer. If you are going to use a sub, the side firing woofer becomes useless. You will be paying for the additional wood/cabinet/woofer with no benefit to you. Best option would be a high-end bookshelf speaker like the Quad11L (you could get one for 26k if you bargain). This is the flagship model from quad/wharfedale and sounds really good. Add a subwoofer from Lithos for 22k and you have a killer system! If you are low on budget, get a pair of Acoustic energy EVO1 for 17k instead of the quad.

For stereo, FS/BS + Sub would almost always be a notch below good fullrange speakers - considering complications of sub placement, level adjustment, xover adjustment etc. However I have got pretty decent results with KEF Cresta FS and a Sub. If you opt for option two, you can consider Cresta rather than the Coda as you would not need the built in woofer anyway.

Hi Ravi,
Thanks, Your view is that for 2 channel the best thing is just 2 FS nothing more,
The reason I thought od\f sub was actually I am intending to setup HT as well,

Thanks agin
Cheers
sat

sat schrieb:

Hi Ravi, Thanks, Your view is that for 2 channel the best thing is just 2 FS nothing more, The reason I thought od\f sub was actually I am intending to setup HT as well, Thanks agin Cheers sat

depends on the budget. subs like Rel, Vandersteen, buggtussels, Audio physic, Revel etc help in boosting the lower bass and hence do wonders in 2Ch. I recently heard a REL Storm + Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor and the sound was sublime. never felt that it was different .


for an HT you do need a sub, although you do not really need a Floor stander for HT. any speaer with a 3dB respose upto 50 hz and a 10db point at around 40 would do great for all sorts of music except for western classical..so you can still have a HT with sub and stereo without one in the same setup without using a FS

Hi Arj
Thanks, those of you who have a HT setup, do U use the sub while playing 2 ch music CDs, particularly those of you who have seperate 2 ch amp.
The reason is some feel 2 ch is better with FS nothing more and as arj says some have diff opinion. Pls help.
Cheers
sat

Sat,

I use a Sub with entry level FS and it sounds just about decent, however it was a long journey to get here by adjusting the sub response. The additional pains can be avoided if we have good FS to start with and dont use a sub for 2CH.

Without sub the sound definition and overall consistency is much better but the effect of missing lows with Cresta/Coda speakers is very evident with most types of music.
With sub the sound still seems to disintegrate a bit even after the adjustments but the lows come across much better and overall I preferred this config.

However I still feel my config above cannot beat a fullrange FS for 2CH. As Arj said, if you can get an entry level FS that is specified to a bit lower freq at -3dB than Cresta, you could use that for 2CH and use the sub only for HT.

Sat,
I think CODA-90 would do a nice job. It was priced for 37k but now there are few SALE going on where you get it for 20k. It has definitely got good highs and mids but lacks bass. IMO you stick to CODA + sub strategy...

HI Abhi
Thanks, I was kind of expecting you to suggest E855 over this config!, Anyways, I have lot of input to decide.
I have one important question, if majority of my music is in MP3 format, How much of difference the Int Amp compare to AVRs for the same a given set of speakers
I know MP3 is not all the quality, but I am not sure if i would speand 1000Rs a month for purchasing music

Because one of showroom suggests AVR stright if the source is MP3 as it won't make any difference of good / bad Amp aas well speaker!

Cheers
sat

abhi.pani schrieb:

Sat, I think CODA-90 would do a nice job. It was priced for 37k but now there are few SALE going on where you get it for 20k. It has definitely got good highs and mids but lacks bass. IMO you stick to CODA + sub strategy...

jesus!..that really makes u want to take a step back and wonder why they inflate the prices so much and then offer it to u at supposedley a throw away price....seems awfully fishy and makes me question the kind of components that go into making of such products...
come on..a reduction of almost 50%.....can't they just quote the original price when it hits the market..

Hi sachi
Actaually ity is due to phaseout model, thay haave stopped in UK for some time, It was retailing here at 37K till 2 months ago with 5% discount
Cheers
sat

Sat,
I didnt suggest E855 because you are tight on budget and you want a HT-Stereo combo....E855 cannot replace the sub in a HT anyway so I thought you better have a comfortable system for both HT and Stereo rather than a good Stereo alone.
BTW an AVR can almost never match a Stereo amp even if it is MP3 source. The guy who suggested you an AVR for mp3 is the biggest enemy of yours.........
Man its true that CD audio is much better than MP3 but still mp3 needs good amplication to sound at its best...I dont think there should be a confusion in this....but but but if you are planning to use a sub for stereo then you need an AVR to make use of the sub. For pure 2 channel its Stereo amp all the way...

Hey,
The components that go into budget speakers are generally very bad. Usually they will be the “bread and butter” range for that brand. You will be lucky if you get even 10k worth of components in a 40k branded-budget speaker. I would stay clear of branded speakers if I am in the market with a tight budget. I had the opportunity to listen to the flag-ship speaker from lyrita-audio this Sunday.
http://www.answers-india.com/lyrita/
This 25k something speaker is a hand-made 30kg mammoth and they sounded much better than any branded speaker that costs about half a lac. Why don’t you give them a listen yourself and see ? You will save a lot of money and it is 92db sensitivity to boot. You can go with low wattage high-quality amps and save some money there too.

you are right square, no justifiable returns for our hard earned $$ in this audio industry. Interest to 've some highend ele just fades off when you hear the pricings

Branded budget speakers are not all as bad as suggested. Frequently much of the research put into flagship models trickles down to budget speakers later on. The companies justify their R&D efforts in flagship products and once the technology is in place it does not cost them as much to transfer some of it over to their other models. Branded speakers are infact most times better than an unbranded speaker that simply did not have the same sort of investment into R&D as the larger companies can afford to. Unbranded speakers also cannot have the same economies of scale as worldwide selling branded speakers with manufacturing bases in china. Yes, there is some amount of hyped up pricing associated with brands, but that per se is no reason to stay away from a rather good deal, both interms of sound quality and value for money.

Ravi, its a given that the coda 90 scorers above the wharfedale diamond seriers(both 8 and 9) when it comes to vocals and treble...but the bass is lacking...
If u look at it that way..then yes...depending on ur type of music and taking into consideration the earlier price that they were being sold..it is a good deal..
But, i guess we need to be more cautious about the VFM factor..
You should get what u paid for...that's the bottom line..

ravi schrieb:

Branded budget speakers are not all as bad as suggested. Frequently much of the research put into flagship models trickles down to budget speakers later on. The companies justify their R&D efforts in flagship products and once the technology is in place it does not cost them as much to transfer some of it over to their other models. Branded speakers are infact most times better than an unbranded speaker that simply did not have the same sort of investment into R&D as the larger companies can afford to. Unbranded speakers also cannot have the same economies of scale as worldwide selling branded speakers with manufacturing bases in china. Yes, there is some amount of hyped up pricing associated with brands, but that per se is no reason to stay away from a rather good deal, both interms of sound quality and value for money.

I have to totally disagree with you here. What you are saying might sound theoretically possible. From my experience I have yet to hear good sound coming from an entry level floor stander from at least 20 brands I have heard. They are all plagued by various problems like cabinet boom, lack of coherence, cheap drivers causing artificial/unnatural sound, Bad tweeters with shrill treble. I can go on……If the entry level is good, how they will sell their pricier models ? They produce clear, loud sound with a lush, rich digital sheen to it. Most people associate this with quality. If you are after natural sound with real character which will make you connect emotionally to the music, you need to go for higher priced models or get them made by serious hobbists who knows what they are doing. From what I have heard from very hardcore audiophiles who are into this for more than 30 years and who currently own and enjoy equipment worth more than our homes, all serious research into reproduction of music was done more than 20 years ago. What little happens nowadays is in the super-high-end class where they make some miniscule achievements every year or so.

Show me a budget floorstander with trickle down technology (around 50k) which sounds real good if you know one. I will try and listen to it.

Benks, agreed - I was not referring in particular to Coda 90, there are other budget speakers that still give good bass. I was just contending the statement that we need to steer clear from budget branded speakers.

agreed ......am only saying that we should consider the VFM factor when buying audi products..
u see u can't justify what bose is doing by pricing their mediocre products at stratospheric prices regardless of the fact that they did do a lot of research work in the 80s ad early 90s..
CHeers,
Sachi

square_wave schrieb:

all serious research into reproduction of music was done more than 20 years ago. What little happens nowadays is in the super-high-end class where they make some miniscule achievements every year or so. Show me a budget floorstander with trickle down technology (around 50k) which sounds real good if you know one. I will try and listen to it.

I definteley agree with you on this regard..
infact, loudspeaker technology has'nt changed much at all for the past 20 -25 years...
One of the companies that give real valuable information is JBL though most of it goes over my head..it seems that no other company produces whitepapers regarding audio cause it is always self glorification if they print anything..

i too am yet to see a good speaker in the <50k bracket
CHeers,
Sachi

benkenobi schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: all serious research into reproduction of music was done more than 20 years ago. What little happens nowadays is in the super-high-end class where they make some miniscule achievements every year or so. Show me a budget floorstander with trickle down technology (around 50k) which sounds real good if you know one. I will try and listen to it. I definteley agree with you on this regard.. infact, loudspeaker technology has'nt changed much at all for the past 20 -25 years... One of the companies that give real valuable information is JBL though most of it goes over my head..it seems that no other company produces whitepapers regarding audio cause it is always self glorification if they print anything.. i too am yet to see a good speaker in the <50k bracket CHeers, Sachi

Agreed. Most of what hear these days is just hype about some “latest material” and all that. I too was caught in this confusion till I met some seasoned audiophiles. Then I started to believe my ears and started to listen critically. Then I slowly started realizing that some older lines from the same brand were far better than the latest ones. Nowadays I don’t care who makes them. I just listen. Tonal accuracy, soundstaging, and dynamics ( both micro- and macro ) are a few areas that I look for in speakers. Good speakers let you hear things that most other speakers gloss over – I have yet to hear budget floorstanding-branded speakers which can reproduce the detail and the textural information available in the bass frequencies. Most just gloss over this area and give a loud “thump”. The same applies to the mids and highs too. Just play the speakers and you should feel the musician playing in front of you. No speaker is accurate but the closer it gets, the more you get connected emotionally. I was just blown when I listened to the Dire straits “down to the waterline” track on the Project Turn-table on the sequel floorstanders at Arjeet’s place. Man they are real good !

square_wave schrieb:

Show me a budget floorstander with trickle down technology (around 50k) which sounds real good if you know one. I will try and listen to it.

Very true for a generalisation. At the budget segment you will do much better with a Bookshelf with a good stand. managing all the above problems in a larger cabinet cost $$$$$$ and since it is a budget segment manufacturers will always be skimping oin that.

Two excellent Floorrstanders I have heard are the Totem Arro and the Art Stilleto. but am not sure if they are available in India.. The Arro is too small to be a floorstander but it sounds much bigger than it is (If you want to go by the bigger is better analogy)

A bookshelf with the same drivers, in my experience , usually gives a better sound. quantity of bass may be low, but its quality is usually better ( I am sure there are exceptions but am generalising here..).

Stereophile has been praising the Infinity Primus range a lot. never got a chance to listen to them but their technical graphs look quite good, hence might be a good choice to audition them as well.

Infinity is a co (Part of the HK/JBL group)which has implemented trickle down tech on drivers as well as cabinet bracings and design quite well..

also their tech head Dr Floyd is supposed to be quite a figure in the area of acoustics..

Very true…If you are going branded at this price range, a high quality bookshelf on a quality stand is the way to go……… Good example is the Quad 12L.

square_wave schrieb:

Very true…If you are going branded at this price range, a high quality bookshelf on a quality stand is the way to go……… Good example is the Quad 12L.

I personally have never been impressed by the bass of this speaker, although I suspect it would do excellantly with a good sub..its midrange is pretty captivating.
But among the options in that price range india, this might be one of the better ones..

For high quality bass I liked the Linn katan and the dynaudio audience 52 but I found the 12L to be an overall good performer at it’s price range.

oh yes..forgot the Dyns are available. only diff being you nede a more powerful amp for the Dyn.

its Bass is very good for a standmount

Guys,
Lately, read a lot of good reviews about Athena AS-F2. Arjun, even you have praised them a lot. At 35k, dont you think its a good budget speaker.....I havent heard them but going by the reviews, I am yet to find an article which has a bad a opinion about these speakers moreover almost every article compares it to speakers pricing twice and above.....

Man I am so curious to give them a listen!!!

I have not heard the Athenas. But from my limited experience, I have yet to hear a budget-floor stander which gives you natural sound which makes you connect to the music. There are very good “value for money” budget floorstanders out there like the wharfedale diamond 8.4, AE EVO3, Dali concept series, Jamo E855 etc… But all these have some fundamental compromises built into them to cut down costs. They will need to make the 35k floorstander for about 15k or even less. They may work for you if you are looking at an entry level product and listens only to popular music using budget electronics. But if you spend the same money on flagship products from serious hobbyists like Lyrita, AP etc…you get good products which equal or even better some higher priced models from popular brands.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Guys, Lately, read a lot of good reviews about Athena AS-F2. Arjun, even you have praised them a lot. At 35k, dont you think its a good budget speaker.....I havent heard them but going by the reviews, I am yet to find an article which has a bad a opinion about these speakers moreover almost every article compares it to speakers pricing twice and above..... Man I am so curious to give them a listen!!! :.

it has a strong bass and is sensitive, more on the lines of the Klipsch reference, NHT and Paradigm. much better than the wharfedales.
Their bookshelf i think called the ASB1 was more coherant. I had heard the athenas for a very short time

But if i remember this series has been dicontinued and has been replaced by another one. the ASF2s are an over 4 year old model and i had listened to them while I was hunting floorstanders.

Athena is owned by API which also own Mirage and Energy ..somehow the other two seem to be more famous

Sqaurewave,
Are you talking about the hyped prices in India or is it your general consensus for anywhere in the world.
I mean, an imported speaker priced at 40k in India would be hardly $500 in US. So if someone is able to get it from US (without paying customs) then what do you say ??

As far as type of music is concerned, whether it is the popular genre or the unpopular ones (joking), a good speaker should be dynamic enough to do justice to both. If speaker does well with Western Classical and fails to deliver with rock music then why the hell you call it a good speaker ?? It becomes totally subjective then.

The brands you mentioned (DALI, Jamo AE etc..) have a good line up of entry level speakers, they might do better with popular music genres than the classical genres or vice-versa but it is understood considering the fact that they are built to budget but does that justify the cause of avoiding them ??
That way I havent seen an Indian speaker under 50k budget which can do better than the above mentioned brands for all sorts of music genres......

As far as cheap electronics is concerned, In most of the setups electronics are quite proportional to the overall budget. A person buying 50k worth speaker wouldnt buy a 10k amp neither would (rather should) he buy a 100k worth amp...
It would be a justifiable electronics setup which matches the speaker and his own tastes...........so it would be very wrong to say that people buying DALI or Jamo are going to pair them with cheap electronics.
Good electronics are required for every kind of music and all kind of speakers in a hifi setup.

I have not seen such disparity in prices with entry level models in the US and India. Most Chinese-assembled speakers like quad and wharfedale actually costs more in the US. The difference is that in the US you get lot of close-out sales and due to competition, you can bargain and get a good price. Agreed that you have something like 25 percent difference on an average. If you get it from the US as you said, you might get a good deal but there is no escaping the mediocre sound from the entry-level speaker. For example, the wharfedale and quad are made by the same company. There is a huge difference in the sound between these two speakers. So, if you can get the same quality as a Quad 22L from a speaker costing less than the wharfedale evo 30, what would you prefer? If you are in the US or UK you may be able to get high-quality speakers at a fraction of the price you pay in India if you shop carefully. I have seen close-out sales in the US for high-end speakers which made me want to cry ! But in India you hardly get this opportunity. My point is not to be satisfied with budget/compromised sound just because you don’t have a lot of money. There are other alternatives.

About, music genres, I was just making a general statement. Theoretically all music irrespective of their genre can be recorded properly with their dynamics and natural tone intact. But this is not the general practice. You hardly see good recordings of popular music these days. Quality control in the studio mix and postproduction takes back seat for popular music because most listeners of popular music are not too bothered about this and the producers are hardly bothered. It is a matter of basic economics. Why bother spending so much money when the target consumer base is hardly bothered.

Frankly, there are no speakers specifically made for a certain genre. There are only high-rez and low rez and everything in between. Generally, experienced audiophiles who listen to Jazz and classical and un-plugged stuff are more critical listeners when it comes to tonal accuracy, soundstaging and dynamics. This is because they can relate the sound to un-amplified real performances they have heard. It is not easy to satisfy them. You need hi-rez to satisfy them because they cannot be fooled. You cannot fool them with loud bass or shrill highs because they will be listening to the natural tone of the sound. A violin or piano has to sound like the real thing. One good way judge a speaker is to take a piano player along with a good recording of the piano. He will open your eyes ! Designing speakers like this is very expensive because you cannot gloss over anything.

If you read my post, I never implied that people buying budget speakers will buy only cheap electronics. But from my limited experience over ten years, I have noticed one thing. Generally people who listen only to popular music are happy with mid-fi equipment. I do not blame them. I blame the recording. Usually un-natural and compressed recordings sound bad on “neutral hi-rez” setups irrespective of the genre. This is a fact. So they do not see any value addition if they spend a ton on hi-rez equipment. This is because the setup amplifies all the faults in the recording. It is like getting the perfect correction glasses for your eyesight and suddenly starts seeing all the shit around. It is better to stick around with the old glasses if the surrounding is not too good. There is a reason why mobile fidelity took over two years cleaning up and re-releasing the pink floyd “wall” cd.

Hi Square Wave,
Where do U audition these speakers?.
we all agree that there is no "all Indian made speakers are bad and all imporated spekaers are good"
I have auditioned Torvin, Yamaha and Mission all side by side with yamaha a596, He asked me to pick 2 from 3 for compariosn, Mission was out imedeately, so there is nothing in brand name then he told me the mission is their entry lrvrl and also cheapest of the 3. Honestly all the 3 were't good, they all entery level from the respective cos.
On the other hand I liked AE EVO (entry level) but never bothered to audition AE allite series.

The major problem is we do not have place where one could check various models side by side and decide like U do in selecting typical TV. When I read various posts I see tat is what causes the provblem for many peoepl.

Also, The china angel, Is all the product MADE IN CHINA means poor quaity? I guess when a company selcts china as maufacturing hub they set their process, I do not know how does it affect Electronics, as most of them were boughtout compoants, But speakers?. I need some help to understand this.

Cheers
sat

Hi Square Wave,

I have realized the problem in distributing high quality music. I offered several people at my office Diana Krall MP3s and got 'thanks but no thanks' replies from them. They preferred their regular stuff.

Ever since I got the Diana Krall songs from Observer, I have been in love with them. I love her voice and the band solos and arrangements. I suspect that quality of equipment has a big role to play in people's choice of music. Can a Rs 100 headphone reproduce a Krall?

Hey Vinny, when you say 'Mediocre Sound', it is not as apparent as you made it. It is a common experience that some speakers sound great with Jazz/Blues but fail to impress when it comes to rock/heavy metal. An audiophile listening to it may be more into rock and he may easily discard the speaker saying that it has a 'mediocre sound'......and it may be the other way round also.

I know that a Piano should sound like a Piano, but that is not the end of the story, if that would have been the case then all the high-end speakers would sound the same(all would sound like the same Piano) but thats not the case practically!! All speakers sound different because ultimately its characteristic sound varies. Though it sounds like a Piano on a Piano track still it sounds different and this is the difference which people like or dislike. A die hard rocker would like a different characteristic sound while a classical singer may choose a different speaker.
I havent seen a single audio buff or even a layman who says that his home audio system sounded better than a live concert (if he has been to a live concert of course ). This shows that it doesnt require an audiophile to appreciate live music and if a speaker can portray that well then it should be apreciated as well. So sounding natural is always welcome but the final charateristic sound of a speaker is all the way more important when it comes to ENJOYING music.

The whole point here is, 'mediocre sound' is not an easy phrase which you can generalise on a particular budget of speakers. It can be used for a particular pair of speakers in discussion (if possible with adequate articles and evidences) but generalising the concept is far from practicality.

You didnt answer my other question, tell me one speaker (made in India) under 50k which beats all its foreign counterparts in all the departments. When I say 'all', I mean 'most'....

abhi.pani schrieb:

You didnt answer my other question, tell me one speaker (made in India) under 50k which beats all its foreign counterparts in all the departments. When I say 'all', I mean 'most'.... ;)

And I guess many of us would welcome more light on what front end/electronics were being used with all those abysmal imported speakers, as well as with the Indian one.

When I say mediocre, I mean a speaker with lot of compromises build into them. Basically it will gloss over areas like tonal accuracy, soundstaging, and dynamics ( both micro- and macro ) and put in a word “un-natural”. I know there are variations even in Hi-rez. But this variation is very minute. Even in hi-rez you need to do your research to pick out your kind of speakers. No speaker can sound exactly like the original performance. The key is to get as close as possible to the original. Most hi-rez speakers get close but even at this level there are slight differences between them due to the voicing of the individual brands and the designer’s taste. A similarly priced proac sound slightly different from a Linn. But you can’t deny the fact that they are high-rez and built without compromising the basic qualities which makes you connect with the music. You just have to listen and see if they are your type of Hi-Rez speaker.

From my experience with Indian brands I found the Acoustic Portrait flagship floor stander better than any branded speaker even at much higher price points in all departments. The Lyrita audio flagship model at 28k is a killer. I have just heard it once with a valve amp and project turntable and they sounded just awesome. I have yet to hear it with a solid state setup at very high volumes though. These are the two I know. There may be others. I have heard a lot of other Indian speakers like sonodyne, torvin etc.. I didn’t like any of them.

Dear sat,
The AP’s can be auditioned at the manufacturers place or at prithvi’s place. Prithvi can be contacted at absolutephase1@yahoo.com
website www.acousticportrait.com
email at corrson@vsnl.net

Lyrita audio can be auditioned in delhi. Contact viren at virenb@rediffmail.com
Contact ariban on the forum if you want to hear in Bangalore.

Big ears,
The associated electronics is all random. Right from entry level integrateds to high-end separates and valve amps.

ok....got it,
Now since you own an AP, I would like to ask one question,
As far as I know it retails at 52k + taxes (that was the last quotation I got), you must also have paid a similar amount....now since we have been debating at the quality of the speakers and the VFM ratio, paying 52k I should get atleast 35k worth of goods right ??? The rest can be considered as overheads + profits etc etc..... Hope I am not asking too much, because I am buying everything locally and that too from a company which doesnt have to spend a lot on marketing (like Bose) or R&D (like B&W) or Dealer network (like Yamaha) etc.

So, can you clarify if you have got goods worth 35k (around). If not then why ?

Since music is subjective to ones ears so you may rate APs the best and I may not but what about other dimensions ??

square_wave schrieb:

Big ears, The associated electronics is all random. Right from entry level integrateds to high-end separates and valve amps.

High-end separates and valve amps partnered with mass market entry level floorstanders??? .... Hmmm, now who would want to do that?

And the partnering components for the Indian speakers?

The deciding factor for me buying AP is it’s sound quality for the money I pay. The build quality of the cabinets with real wood veneer equals some high-end floor standers costing above a lac. Don’t forget the elaborate spike setup made of stainless steel which comes with the speaker. You can order the speakers with normal spikes which will further bring down the cost. I did not go into calculating costs for individual parts/cabinet etc…I know for a fact that it is substantially higher than what I would be getting with similarly priced branded floor standers. I compared with similar products in the branded market for sound as well as build quality and found this one to equal speakers costing around 90k. It is a simple matter of availability vs my needs for the cash I am willing to pay.

Big ears,
I said random for all Indian as well as imported speakers. I have done some A/B comparisons also with the same electronics.

square_wave schrieb:

There are very good “value for money” budget floorstanders out there like the wharfedale diamond 8.4, AE EVO3, Dali concept series, Jamo E855 etc… But all these have some fundamental compromises built into them to cut down costs. They will need to make the 35k floorstander for about 15k or even less. They may work for you if you are looking at an entry level product and listens only to popular music using budget electronics. But if you spend the same money on flagship products from serious hobbyists like Lyrita, AP etc…you get good products which equal or even better some higher priced models from popular brands.

Serious statements... you seem to have some internal information on the profit margins of Dali viz a viz Lyrita?
We just need to listen to all speakers and go for whatever sounds better - no saying one way or the other from conjectures and advising people to stay away from a whole category of speakers. The statements above reflect a case of unjust stereotyping.
How many local manufacturers do you think are here that have good anechoic chambers and precision calibrated measuring setups? How many golden ears have listened to their speakers? How much feedback have the local speakers obtained from the international community?

Atleast I am not taken in by the tall claims that Lyrita/AP is everything and I should buy with my eyes closed. No sir, I am indeed going to audition all branded budget speakers too definitely if I were to buy one.

ravi schrieb:

The statements above reflect a case of unjust stereotyping. How many local manufacturers do you think are here that have good anechoic chambers and precision calibrated measuring setups? How many golden ears have listened to their speakers? How much feedback have the local speakers obtained from the international community? Atleast I am not taken in by the tall claims that Lyrita/AP is everything and I should buy with my eyes closed. No sir, I am indeed going to audition all branded budget speakers too definitely if I were to buy one.

Good points Ravi.
It is not only the sound that one buys when he she buys an musical equipment. it is also the guarantee, the credibility in terms of R&D as well as the brand awareness that the equipment enjoys in case you need to dispose it of. in the end of it it is an asset , considering the money yo pay and must always consider its value with time.

If the local manufacturer has a good name and you know he going to be around in that field for quite some time, then there is nothing wrongin going for it..

an interesting fact, if u ignore the sound quality; Bose is one of the best investments in audio. you get a wonderful resale value !

square_wave schrieb:

Big ears, I said random for all Indian as well as imported speakers. I have done some A/B comparisons also with the same electronics.

Squarewave,

Please understand that not everybody on this forum is a rookie to keep swallowing drivel.

Your firm and unshakeable belief, in today’s world, that research and development and economies of scale have no relevance to the quality / costing of products would be laughable – if it wasn’t so pitiable. Since you keep referring to Lyrita and AP all the time, and since we are fortunate to have Viren and Siva on this forum, I would be very interested in knowing what these manufacturers have to say on this issue. If they have been in the market for 20 years or so, are they also of the opinion that the amps/speakers they designed and manufactured 20 years ago are much better than the products they sell to customers today? Or, if they have not been around for so long, then are they too firm in their belief that their learning process for the next 20 years is going to be so limited that the products they sell today would be superior to anything they would be able to think of 20 years hence? We all know of one-off designs that have gone on to achieve legendary status, but surely such examples are few and far between.

Also evident, from your vague replies, is the fact that your exposure to quality audio products is very limited indeed. I cannot think of any establishments in your hometown, apart from Prithvi / Corsson, where you would be able to audition a smattering of “high end” separates / valve amps paired with entry level FS / and Acoustic Portrait speakers, so please do not try to convey to the world that these establishments are representative of all that is available in the hifi world. We have been in this hobby much longer than you have and have had exposure to the best products the world has to offer, at all price levels. So don’t hide behind statements like “I have not come across any good sounding speaker in the budget category”. If you haven’t, then it is not because such products do not exist in the world, it is purely because you do not know where to look. I have no issue with your preference for a particular speaker, audio is entirely a subjective issue and we all have our favourites, but please don’t assume the mantle of some super reviewer and go about spreading disinformation on this forum.

Ravi, Arj, your comments above are very valid, and I would wholeheartedly agree with them.

Big ears,
Everybody has their opinions. Opinions are like that. It is true that I have not traveled the world and listened to all the products available around. I never asked anybody to buy anything without hearing them. I bought my stuff after hearing and comparing them to whatever is available around my hometown and I like them. All I asked is people to listen with an open mind and take a decision without getting into all the hype. As I said earlier “everybody has their opinion” and it is my firm opinion that all the hype surrounding budget imported brands was all “crap” when I compare with my ears to products made by serious hobbyists in India. Why don’t you do try and do an A/B comparison yourself of the AP floor stander with any budget floor stander of your choice and post your opinions instead of sitting on your high-horse and posting stuff? If you so experienced, why don’t you do it? It will be an eye opener for the rest of us mortals. There are people who go by their ears. My posts are for them. Rest can ignore it. I have absolutely nothing to do with “hype about the latest technology” if they can’t deliver the goods! My ear is my guide…..

Secondly, where did I spread disinformation? As I said earlier, it is my opinion from my experience with the limited brands in my hometown that branded budget floorstanding speakers are a rip off and do not deliver the goods. It is my firm belief because they do not deliver the goods for my ears.For me, there are better alternatives. I will say this anywhere ! You have to decide after hearing for yourself! Why don’t you post your opinion after a “FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE” after an A/B comparison and enlighten us?

Sometimes all that you believe may turn out to be false when you experience something first-hand.

square_wave schrieb:

Big ears, As I said earlier “everybody has their opinion” and it is my firm opinion that all the hype surrounding budget imported brands was all “crap” when I compare with my ears to products made by serious hobbyists in India. My ear is my guide…..

Interesting statements...but we are actually in a discussion of Branded Vs Unbranded.

very similiar question would be

Should I buy a computer from my freindly neigheborhood grey market supplies or from a more expensive branded PC ? Given that All PC have good quality parts as well as performance.

I guess this will have 2 sets of people going for each one of the options as their criterion is separate, hence no sense discussing this further

In audio the aditional twist is the voicing of the components which is very co specific. And this is also due to the uniqueness of crossovers, cabinet design, drivers arrangement, and so many factors wich all come due to R&D. Another factor is as mentioned earlier their resale value.

To a person new to this hobby, it makes sense going for a branded speaker which he can dispose off once he gets more into music and realises exactly what he wants from his music system (It can take years)

to those of you who have reached a almost final state in the above having heard and read about components, yuor final purcahse can be any way as it would be the sound that matters most and you have an idea of what is the sound u want.

IMHO, But to tell someone who is new to take a risk in the unbranded purely on the basis of untrained ears is not very good advise as his investment is going to lose value the moment he has paid for it.

his tastes and requirement are definitely very unclear. when I started this 4 years ago, I had very different ideas about my music..after hearing so many brands I have got a clearer idea of what I would want.

Should I buy a computer from my freindly neigheborhood grey market supplies or from a more expensive branded PC ? Given that All PC have good quality parts as well as performance.

Hey! I'll not go for friendly neighborhood grey supplier. Instead I go for exp branded one, atleast it 'll 've some good resale value incase you want to dispose it off

Hi Arj
I guess we have discussed this before………in another thread

square_wave, to expand on big-ear's point - you tell "speaker technology has remained pretty much unchanged for the last 20 years" but thats more like saying internal combusiton engine technology is mostly the same as what it was 40 years ago. But what matters is the fine improvements made over it - today we have MPFI, precision cylinders and pistons, extra hardened lightweight and low TC materials, computer controlled fuel injection, engine diagnostics and on and on.. and at much lower cost than what was possible to produce 40 years ago. Speaker technology too is something like that - the basic principle remains the same (save new technologies like electrostatic or piezoelectric), but then there are tremendous enhancements over basic principles, like rigid and light weight cabinet materials, computer mechanical modeling for controlling vibrations and resonances, precision measurements that were simply impossible 20 years ago, ferrofluid cooling, down to the glues and screw positioning used for cabinet integrity etc (not counting possibly hyped tech like Uni-Q, kevlar cone drivers etc). All of the above require a good investment in establishing the R&D facility. Do not understimate the technology and effort that goes into speakers today. All the above is possible only because of high-end products justifying the investments and economies of scale.

So much technology went into perfecting the simple via contact on the cross-over PCB, you would need an year's course just to study it - leave alone the rest of the system.

When you shoot for high-end, its not just the basic technology alone that matters, its all the small technology that goes into it. This is where branded speakers have an edge. So please dont dismiss the case of technology and cost as of no relevance for branded or unbranded.

ravi schrieb:

square_wave, to expand on big-ear's point - you tell "speaker technology has remained pretty much unchanged for the last 20 years" but thats more like saying internal combusiton engine technology is mostly the same as what it was 40 years ago. But what matters is the fine improvements made over it - today we have MPFI, precision cylinders and pistons, extra hardened lightweight and low TC materials, computer controlled fuel injection, engine diagnostics and on and on.. and at much lower cost than what was possible to produce 40 years ago. Speaker technology too is something like that - the basic principle remains the same (save new technologies like electrostatic or piezoelectric), but then there are tremendous enhancements over basic principles, like rigid and light weight cabinet materials, computer mechanical modeling for controlling vibrations and resonances, precision measurements that were simply impossible 20 years ago, ferrofluid cooling, down to the glues and screw positioning used for cabinet integrity etc (not counting possibly hyped tech like Uni-Q, kevlar cone drivers etc). All of the above require a good investment in establishing the R&D facility. Do not understimate the technology and effort that goes into speakers today. All the above is possible only because of high-end products justifying the investments and economies of scale. So much technology went into perfecting the simple via contact on the cross-over PCB, you would need an year's course just to study it - leave alone the rest of the system. When you shoot for high-end, its not just the basic technology alone that matters, its all the small technology that goes into it. This is where branded speakers have an edge. So please dont dismiss the case of technology and cost as of no relevance for branded or unbranded.

dear Ravi,
yes, there have been improvements in the design process and manufacturing techniques of speakers and speaker drivers.
The analogy u have given with regard to IC engines is pretty good...the basics of speaker tech relies on the work done by people in the 60s and the 70s like Harry Olson, Richard Small..etc.

I too made the statement "speaker technology has remained pretty much unchanged for the last 20 years", but should have made it clear that it was with regard to basics of speaker tech.
Like in any industry technology has vastly improved the quality and the detailing process that goes into building speakers be it anywheer from driver manufacturing techniques to crossover components quality, cabinet materials, damping materials, port alignment and port configuration and like u point out, right down to the screws and nuts that hold the drivers in place.
This kind of detailing requires considerable infrastructure and R&D for an extended period of time which am sure none of our Indian manufaturers have. Then again, like u so rightly point out , this kind of prescion is seen only in expensive speakers .
Cheers,
Sachi