FS + SUB or FS for Stereo

Benks,
What did you infer from my statement? It doesn’t in any way mean that you need to learn from me. It means that I feel everybody needs to learn from seasoned audiophiles on the “art of critical listening “. I am not saying I am a seasoned audiophile. I have a long way to go. I go by my ears only and I keep learning from others who are very senior to me. I did quantum jumps in knowledge by doing so. I still have a lot to learn and I keep doing so by hearing new stuff and talking to senior audiophiles………. It was a general statement which holds true to me. That is all I meant. Nothing else. This is my opinion. That is how I learn. You may have a different way of learning.

Abhi Pani,
When I say listen critically – you need to do it only when you are hunting for a speaker. Once you settle down you will be happy with what you hear. If you have done your homework, the speaker will let you connect with the artist and you can forget about everything else. This is also my opinion. You may know of a different way to shop for speakers.

I have nothing against imported brands. I would love to settle down with a Proac D38 response series if I could afford it or even a “rhythm the second” / hi-end Martin Logans with a pair of very musical REL subs. What I posted is my experience with “entry/mid level branded floorstanders” against speakers made by serious hobbyists at similar cost in India. It is my opinion based on my experience and tastes. Your experience may be different. Post your experience after comparing and let’s discuss it…………… This is a common practice on any audiophile forum anywhere on this planet. Normally people check out the brand and do comparisons and post their opinions. It makes a very interesting and worthwhile discussion then.

square_wave,
According to me the most ideal way to learn about high-end music is to listen to as many gears (entry, mid, high-end, ultra-high end, super-end) as possible. It is this journey which gives you the knowledge/ability/sense/sixth-sense/gut-feeling whatever you call it to judge good gears. I dont think there is any short-cut to it. If you are trying a short-cut then you are too busy to be an audiophile.
I understand that one can gain a lot of knowledge from seasoned audiophiles and thats why we are in this forum but when it comes listening, the mightiest of the audiophiles cannot make you listen something which your ears are not picking up or your mind is not bothered about.....
This can be developed only by continuous excercise of listening to good gears thats the MANTRA, VEDA that I can openly advocate without requiring to add "IMO".
I know some may feel that I am talking something very obvious but thats what I have learnt from my short journey.
There is no "101 TRICKS TO BE AN AUDIOPHILE" and you dont require COACHING OR TUTORIALS to be an audiophile (critical listener).

It is like one cannot learn driving from a "driving school", he has to drive thousands of kms on busy streets to be a good driver afterall.

square_wave schrieb:

Benks, What did you infer from my statement? It doesn’t in any way mean that you need to learn from me. It means that I feel everybody needs to learn from seasoned audiophiles on the “art of critical listening “. I am not saying I am a seasoned audiophile. I have a long way to go. I go by my ears only and I keep learning from others who are very senior to me. I did quantum jumps in knowledge by doing so. I still have a lot to learn and I keep doing so by hearing new stuff and talking to senior audiophiles………. It was a general statement which holds true to me. That is all I meant. Nothing else. This is my opinion. That is how I learn. You may have a different way of learning.

Square_wave,
u seriously need to reflect back on your statements before making a stupid statement such as this. When the shit has hit the fan there is no use running for cover. U might as well face it and come 'clean'
Benkenobi

abhi.pani schrieb:

I understand that one can gain a lot of knowledge from seasoned audiophiles and thats why we are in this forum but when it comes listening, the mightiest of the audiophiles cannot make you listen something which your ears are not picking up or your mind is not bothered about.....

This constant referral to this audiophile crap really riles me up.
How many of you listen to music with the intention of planting you asses down for a couple of hours whenever you 'listen' to music and do so in a 'critical' way.
I mean come on. Yeah once in a while , i too do it. But that is like once a month or so. So can we please stop this audiophile bullshit and move on.

Benks,
When I say Audiophile, I just mean someone who understands audio/music better than a layman. The usage has got different meanings in different contexts but you got to take it with its proper implications for the sake of the discussion..
Otherwise propose better word to replace "Audiophile"..

benkenobi schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: I understand that one can gain a lot of knowledge from seasoned audiophiles and thats why we are in this forum but when it comes listening, the mightiest of the audiophiles cannot make you listen something which your ears are not picking up or your mind is not bothered about..... This constant referral to this audiophile crap really riles me up. How many of you listen to music with the intention of planting you asses down for a couple of hours whenever you 'listen' to music and do so in a 'critical' way. I mean come on. Yeah once in a while , i too do it. But that is like once a month or so. So can we please stop this audiophile bullshit and move on.

Well I do Obi-wan, and I am sure that a lot of others do as well.Like I said on another post in another section,the sole justification for owning a good music system is that it makes all the difference to the listening experience.

Cheers
K

abhi.pani schrieb:

Benks, When I say Audiophile, I just mean someone who understands audio/music better than a layman. The usage has got different meanings in different contexts but you got to take it with its proper implications for the sake of the discussion.. Otherwise propose better word to replace "Audiophile".. :D

am sorry abhi, u too seem unable to grasp what i am tryin to say.

Probably the only persons who would be able to understand how a piece should sound are the muscians and i think none of us are .
Besides, the varied genres of music makes it difficult to learn to listen to all of them. One cannot hope to learn to listen to music from a person who listens mostly to Jazz when you listen to hard rock and metal.

"The usage has got different meanings in different contexts but you got to take it with its proper implications for the sake of the discussion"

One thing though, u have hit the nail on the head.
things are interoreted differently by the members and contributes in itself to the present confusin and hostility but not entirely. There are some valid accusations and couter allegations that need to be delved into before we calll it a day.
Some of the commercial members and thier well wishers are subtley using terms which are confusing and misleading at best. They need to elucidate their postings clearly so that none of us misinterpret them and none of the newbies get taken for a ride.
Benkenobi

abhi wrote

Its quite evident from the previous few posts that even valid points made by a member (Commercial or otherwise) is not being accepted gracefully.

I have noticed the same as well abhi. It it sad.

Manek.

Audiophile

What the hell does this word mean.....and from when did layman and Audiophile become antonyms?...I just don't subscribe to the view of this most commonly used word Audiophileafter f*ck from the vocabulary of a spotty 20 year old college going junkie.. .

square wave wrote :

When I say listen critically – you need to do it only when you are hunting for a speaker. Once you settle down you will be happy with what you hear. If you have done your homework, the speaker will let you connect with the artist and you can forget about everything else. This is also my opinion. You may know of a different way to shop for speakers.

I think this is what every prospective buyer does who lands up in a Hifi shop..I completely agree that you need to stress your ears when you audition speakers , so you don't stress them every day when listening.. just like you open bonnet..look for cam noise, crank noise, rings clearnce ,etc etc before picking up a used car..but do you do that while driving every day.. so buying speakers is like buying an used car....

boouurrpppp

Krish schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb: abhi.pani schrieb: I understand that one can gain a lot of knowledge from seasoned audiophiles and thats why we are in this forum but when it comes listening, the mightiest of the audiophiles cannot make you listen something which your ears are not picking up or your mind is not bothered about..... This constant referral to this audiophile crap really riles me up. How many of you listen to music with the intention of planting you asses down for a couple of hours whenever you 'listen' to music and do so in a 'critical' way. I mean come on. Yeah once in a while , i too do it. But that is like once a month or so. So can we please stop this audiophile bullshit and move on. Well I do Obi-wan, and I am sure that a lot of others do as well.Like I said on another post in another section,the sole justification for owning a good music system is that it makes all the difference to the listening experience. Cheers K

Krish,
i meant no offence to anyone. Hey i too do it and i have openlly said it but not daily cause my kind of music calls for a diffrent type of listening. It is the kind that wants you to get out of your chair , dance around and sing out loud so that your neighbour comes banging on your doors with court orders.
Frankly, that kind of music dereves more than just sitting(which i don't think is possible) and 'listening'.
Ho[e i made it clear.
i donot deny the justification for buying a good stereo system. its the same for everyone. the keyword though is "difference" . we all have different music tastes and hence one might say we all are right in saying "this is the way to listen" cause that's the way we like to listen.
But that does'nt mean one has the right to profess his method, idea as 'the' way to do it like how square wave has done on more than one occasion.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

. square wave wrote : When I say listen critically – you need to do it only when you are hunting for a speaker. Once you settle down you will be happy with what you hear. If you have done your homework, the speaker will let you connect with the artist and you can forget about everything else. This is also my opinion. You may know of a different way to shop for speakers. I think this is what every prospective buyer does who lands up in a Hifi shop..I completely agree that you need to stress your ears when you audition speakers , so you don't stress them every day when listening.. just like you open bonnet..look for cam noise, crank noise, rings clearnce ,etc etc before picking up a used car..but do you do that while driving every day.. so buying speakers is like buying an used car.... boouurrpppp :*

another good analogy from the resident drunk.
hang on ..i got a few mugs too.

Benks,
Thats true...that non of us musicians but you have to agree that the only way to be a good judge of an audio gear is to listen to as many gears possible....about the genres of music, its totally a personal taste and with time we normally settle down with those genres, its obvious that all our judgements revolve around those genres. Its funny to try hard and listen to other genres just for the sake of "LISTENING" or evaluating gears....
But then there is no shortcut to listening

abhi.pani schrieb:

Benks, Thats true...that non of us musicians but you have to agree that the only way to be a good judge of an audio gear is to listen to as many gears possible....about the genres of music, its totally a personal taste and with time we normally settle down with those genres, its obvious that all our judgements revolve around those genres. Its funny to try hard and listen to other genres just for the sake of "LISTENING" or evaluating gears.... But then there is no shortcut to listening ;)

i never said i don't subscribe to this line of thinking but just to make it clear, I do.
Cheers Abhi,
Benkenobi

Dear Benks,

Some of the commercial members and their well wishers are subtly using terms which are confusing and misleading at best. They need to elucidate their postings clearly so that none of us misinterpret them and none of the newbies get taken for a ride.
Man you couldn't be more right !

As a Commercial Member I have been constantly been seeing this & similar practices and have & will continue to crusade against the same. There is place on this forum to Buy & Sell and that is where marketing can go on. But to exploit innocent newbies on this forum for personal gain is criminal.

The sanctity of this forum needs to be preserved... a place where newbies can run to, to seek guidance and for oldies to learn something new from the newbies as well as share their knowledge freely...with no strings attached or ulterior motives...and most importantly without being high & heavy handed.

I think, with you writing what you did write, you have made a number of people realize what they did was wrong and they had the courage to apologize. I have no axe to grind now

Regards,

Junia.

benkenobi schrieb:

Some of the commercial members and thier well wishers are subtley using terms which are confusing and misleading at best. They need to elucidate their postings clearly so that none of us misinterpret them and none of the newbies get taken for a ride. Benkenobi

Benks,

If you cannot understand a specific post...you could have done three things

1)Ask the specific author to explain more.....it would have helped everyone who did not understand that posting

2) Else, you can just assume that the author is trying to confuse and mislead people ...keep quiet for the moment and crib about it later.

3) If you are very sure that the particular author is saying wrong things...state the facts on this forum as to why it is wrong. It will help everyone.

Off the three i choice, i will personally avoid option number (2)...as it helps nobody.

Again, please take this message is a postive fashion...

Cheers
Siva.

benks wrote :

another good analogy from the resident drunk. hang on ..i got a few mugs too.

Who's not a drunk here dude..every one is...but few like me dare and others fear... jokes apart Sivat has interestingly put forward his views....very precise

benkenobi schrieb:

u seriously need to reflect back on your statements before making a stupid statement such as this. When the shit has hit the fan there is no use running for cover. U might as well face it and come 'clean' Benkenobi

Benks,

On one hand you complement me for being humble...and i guess you expect that from others...but don't get me wrong...the above statement from you definetely does not sound humble to me.

Lets try to be nice to everyone...shall we. There is no point getting emotional and discuss opinion about individuals. If you really want to help newbie...discuss rationally about audiophile concepts.

To start with ... can i request you to list the top five reasons, why think turntable sound would not be good (I inferred this from one your earlier posts...i could be wrong). Lets argue over this...i would love that discussion. :-)

Cheers
Siva.

It should get interesting now………..lets talk audio.

Siva,

My experience with turntables has been limited and dont use one presently.
I used to use one until 10 years ago. I also am one of those guys who collect re-issues of old records on Cd's and I have managed to collect many such cd's.
I somehow still remember enjoying my records more.

One standing example would be the Malher 2nd symphony(klaus tendstedt, with the LPO) which I have on record and a CD re-issue, both from EMI. World of a difference man ! I've heard that CD on many high resolution systems but cant just get that sound, those dynamics, the depth and detail of the double bass section in the orchestra. Have many such examples.......ofcourse one reason could be that the re-issue many not be done as well as the original but in most cases i remember my records sounding better.

those tt's are not to be laughed at as they sure can deliver the goods and more.....but records and tt's need a lot of taking care off.

So siva, why do you think that is ?

Manek.

sivat schrieb:

Benks, To start with ... can i request you to list the top five reasons, why think turntable sound would not be good (I inferred this from one your earlier posts...i could be wrong). Lets argue over this...i would love that discussion. :-) Cheers Siva.

well, you have again interpreted my words differently. What i meant was i disagree with your views that analog sound is better. Never have i said that it would not sound good(anything played in a proper system, with the source being right will make music ). They do sound good, but when you don't compare them with any other forms of source material.
Personally i have used tapes for as along as i have listened to audio and let me tell you IMHO they donot come close to even the 128kbps ripped audio Mp3s.
I still listen to tapes in the car and have a collection of tapes that have been scrupulously chosen and recorded using the best tapes available from original CD material and still no luck.

On the other hand i concede that though i have heard TT on more than one occasion though i can't recall the memory cause it was way back(maybe 10+ years ago).
I would like you to prove why analog should sound better than the best digital recordings that are available.
Infact i might even come into possrsion of an old TT and more than a couple of hundred LPs. They are lying in Hassan and will definitely give them a thought before i go further.
Cheers,
Sachi

Manek schrieb:

Siva, My experience with turntables has been limited and dont use one presently. I used to use one until 10 years ago. I also am one of those guys who collect re-issues of old records on Cd's and I have managed to collect many such cd's. I somehow still remember enjoying my records more. One standing example would be the Malher 2nd symphony(klaus tendstedt, with the LPO) which I have on record and a CD re-issue, both from EMI. World of a difference man ! I've heard that CD on many high resolution systems but cant just get that sound, those dynamics, the depth and detail of the double bass section in the orchestra. Have many such examples.......ofcourse one reason could be that the re-issue many not be done as well as the original but in most cases i remember my records sounding better. those tt's are not to be laughed at as they sure can deliver the goods and more.....but records and tt's need a lot of taking care off. So siva, why do you think that is ? Manek.

TT’s and vinyl need to be taken care off and need to be stored and maintained well. If somebody is willing to do that, the rewards are manifold. I still remember the day I compared my first cd to the ancient vinyl of the “thriller album” by MJ on my very modest sony TT. There was no comparison. The shrill screech of MJ on the cd made me want to run out of the room. The connection was gone. The sound was sterile and shrill. cd players have come a long way since but I am still waiting to hear the “perfect sound always” mantra by Philips when they touted the cd as the perfect medium. I still feel you get better sound out of a 20k TT than a 20k cd player if you play a well maintained vinyl.

OK Guys closing in for the day and will be out of town till tuesday....don't forget the spirit of our INDEPENDENCE DAY


and bury the axe's for a while and greet our fellow brothers and appreciate their effort for bringing out good products....

wishes to all and sundry

What about tapes (as benks mentioned) ? Even they are analog, but they dont seem to match the CDs in anyway...

sivat schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb: u seriously need to reflect back on your statements before making a stupid statement such as this. When the shit has hit the fan there is no use running for cover. U might as well face it and come 'clean' Benkenobi

If you read carefully i guess you will see that the above statement was made with reference to square_wave and not you.
Cheers,
Benkenobi

abhi.pani schrieb:

What about tapes (as benks mentioned) ? Even they are analog, but they dont seem to match the CDs in anyway... :?

Tapes and TT are two different animals. No comparison. And cd players of today will outdo any tape. But long back when I got my first cd, the TT copy of thriller made on my nakamichi 3 head deck on a metal bias TDK tape sounded better. Another thing is that TT needs a lot of attention. And you need a good TT with a decent cartridge and a good phono stage on your amp to judge the potential of Vinyl. It seems the sales growth of vinyl was more than that of the cd in the year 2004-05 in the UK. It is making a comeback.

We are again heading into dark territory with the analog V/s Digital issue.
If this is the type of things you want to discuss then why not we broach over topics like cables, damping factor, et al.
But this would simply take up too much of our time cause there is no answer taht is satisfying to all in question. So let's just drop it and continnue with talking about real audio stuff that we can relate to.
If on the other hand if you still want to discuss thesse things, i suggest a weekly or forthnightly meeting(at least in Bangalore) with an open invitation to all who want to attend and participate, where a series of A/B testing and DBTs can be done to find out the facts.
Cheers,
Benkenobi

Tapes aren’t that bad as they are made to be. They are bad if you compare the Indian mass market pre-recorded tapes and it’s cd counterpart. If you make a copy from the master DAT in the studio on to a Metal bias tape using a professional quality tape deck and listen you will be surprised.

benks wrote :

If on the other hand if you still want to discuss thesse things, i suggest a weekly or forthnightly meeting(at least in Bangalore) with an open invitation to all who want to attend and participate, where a series of A/B testing and DBTs can be done to find out the facts.

Good proposal..but who plans to host this is another big question..

square wave wrote :

They are bad if you compare the Indian mass market pre-recorded tapes and it’s cd counterpart. If you make a copy from the master DAT in the studio on to a Metal bias tape using a professional quality tape deck and listen you will be surprised.

I have some good BASF tapes around 15 years old and sound good even to date, but you need to have a professional quality tape deck to enjoy it.

square_wave, whats a "metal bias" tape?

square_wave schrieb:

Tapes aren’t that bad as they are made to be. They are bad if you compare the Indian mass market pre-recorded tapes and it’s cd counterpart. If you make a copy from the master DAT in the studio on to a Metal bias tape using a professional quality tape deck and listen you will be surprised.

One can easily spare some of hs budget for a good tape deck but the problem is if this is the kind of excercise one needs to perform to get a good quality output from a tape then its avoided. Moreover where do you get master DAT ! only in the studio thats like fetching music from the moon.....
I have heard normal vinyls (Old Indian film music) on an average TT (a philips owned by my friend) around 10 years back it was sounding good at that time but now when I recollect it doesnt impress me.
Are all vinyls available in the shops today are that good ??
I am yet to hear a good TT setup so just curious about it.

benkenobi schrieb:

We are again heading into dark territory with the analog V/s Digital issue. If this is the type of things you want to discuss then why not we broach over topics like cables, damping factor, et al. But this would simply take up too much of our time cause there is no answer taht is satisfying to all in question. So let's just drop it and continnue with talking about real audio stuff that we can relate to. If on the other hand if you still want to discuss thesse things, i suggest a weekly or forthnightly meeting(at least in Bangalore) with an open invitation to all who want to attend and participate, where a series of A/B testing and DBTs can be done to find out the facts. Cheers, Benkenobi

A/B test for analog vs digital ?
The difference is very vast for double blind tests. People prefer each due it’s strong characteristics. They are worlds apart with its own strong advocates.

was referring toall the polemic issues and not just analog v/s digital.
Duh!
Let us reserve our judgements beofre we make statements that we both might regret later.
You are tripping all over urself again by making factual statements. Even though it may turn out to be true please exercise restraint before making such statements.

abhi.pani schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Tapes aren’t that bad as they are made to be. They are bad if you compare the Indian mass market pre-recorded tapes and it’s cd counterpart. If you make a copy from the master DAT in the studio on to a Metal bias tape using a professional quality tape deck and listen you will be surprised. One can easily spare some of hs budget for a good tape deck but the problem is if this is the kind of excercise one needs to perform to get a good quality output from a tape then its avoided. Moreover where do you get master DAT ! only in the studio thats like fetching music from the moon..... I have heard normal vinyls (Old Indian film music) on an average TT (a philips owned by my friend) around 10 years back it was sounding good at that time but now when I recollect it doesnt impress me. Are all vinyls available in the shops today are that good ?? I am yet to hear a good TT setup so just curious about it.

Abhi,
Yup,
That is the problem. Getting good recordings on tape is a pain and there are lot of other issues like proper head alignment, tape life and all that which caused the demise of the tape as we know it. For all practical purposes cd is a far better alternative.
Arjeet has a decent TT setup. Try visiting him. You can listen to his newly acquired speakers also.You can listen to dire straits on vinyl and cd.
Ravi,
You used to get normal, chrome and metal bias tapes from all manufacturers. The metal were the best and most expensive. Don't ask me the tech bit on it. I don't know.

OK, bias refers to deck setting, just "metal tapes" would be the right term.

Manek schrieb:

Siva, One standing example would be the Malher 2nd symphony(klaus tendstedt, with the LPO) which I have on record and a CD re-issue, both from EMI. World of a difference man ! I've heard that CD on many high resolution systems but cant just get that sound, those dynamics, the depth and detail of the double bass section in the orchestra. Have many such examples.......ofcourse one reason could be that the re-issue many not be done as well as the original but in most cases i remember my records sounding better. those tt's are not to be laughed at as they sure can deliver the goods and more.....but records and tt's need a lot of taking care off. So siva, why do you think that is ? Manek.

Manek,

Fully agree with you...my experience has been the same. I have a Rs.6000/- unbranded TT bought from brigade road...fitted with Shure M97. Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" is amazing on this "cheap" turntabe compared to the same album played via CD on an Arcam FMJ CD23. The instruments sounded so natural..and the stage more realistic. However the "crackling" sound in the background and lack of resolution were the downside.

I recently heard an Linn fitted with an very expensive cartige (do not remember the same...think it was Japanese). The resolution was amazing for a TT and along with the above mentioned advantages.

A Quote from one of Sam Tellig's article in the past -"why do want another hi-rez format..when you have the records !!".... thats a powerful statement. All though i cannot fully explain the reasons why turntable can sound better than CD...i think the follwing could give an idea..

A CD player (or any digital source) consists of four main parts

1)
Transport - This is a problem for both CD player and TT (assuming the mechanism of a TT to be the equivalent of a transport)...but the results are more sensitive for a TT.

2)
DAC - This is where i presume the primary problem is. Our S/W engineers are still not smart enought to device an algorithm that can exactly reproduce nature. I do have SACD and DVD-A players...and i found SACD to be step closure to analoug sound. I read similar feedback from Mark Levinson of Rose Audio in Stereophile.

3)
Analogue output stage - I found that quality of the components are critical in the CD player...and regardless of quality, i presume this stage still affects (colors) the output. But measurements indicate these stages do not distort the sound (I have personally experienced improvement in sound by changing just caps in this stage). I guess somethings in audio cannot be explained by pure measurements (a good example is the argument on "upsampling"...while some say it is coloration...few others say..it is an good improvement).

4)
Power Supply - This i presume is equivalley important for both TT and CDP

If you see, a TT does not have DAC as well as Analogue stages...the sound is subject to less manipulation...hence sounding better.

However, the problem with TT is the complex mechanics involved...if this can be overcome with crazy equipment from guys like VPI, Clearaudio, etc.,...probably they are a better bet compared to CDP.

Guys, do not jump at me....all of the above are my opinion...i could be correct...i could be wrong :-).

Cheers
Siva.

Seems I missed much of the fun in the pow wow, and now, it will be difficult for me to reply to many of the comments made, but, what the hell, here goes.

Gentlemen, I see a few of you asking me to first audition the makes being discussed, before putting them down. Excellent! Now I hope you understand my consternation when I see somebody preening about his purchases and putting down the efforts of others, without knowing the first thing about them!

Siva, from your posts above, you seem to be of the opinion that there exist many good products in the market, and one has to spend a reasonable amount of time listening to quality products to understand what quality really is. Now, havent I come across that before? Maybe in my own posts, right from the earliest ones? So, when one sees an individual bragging about how good his purchase is, without any knowledge of what is available, it rankles. Either the guy is a genuine ignoramus, or he is deliberately trying to mislead others, at the behest of someone. Thank you very much for taking the pains to clarify it is not the latter.

Hojo, without wishing to sound pompous, yes, I have had a reasonably substantial exposure to quality audio products. However, I have not been tom-tomming some purchase made so I don’t see the need to satisfy your curiosity on my experience. But, when you have outgrown your diapers on this forum, read my earlier posts and you will find that my little contribution to this forum is surely more comprehensive than just raving about some friend’s North Creek Audio speakers.

Hey Big Ears,

We missed your inputs at the fag end !

Anyway all is well that ends well.

The next time such a situation arises, we look forward to your early entry into the arena !!

Regards,

Junia.

Some pertinent quotes that forum members should note to avoid being misled by a commercial / vested interest:

Neutral schrieb:

I had an interesting Saturday, thanks to Junia. At his office, I compared 3 headphones - Grado RS1, Sennheiser HD-600, and a pair of in-ear-canal headphones. The Senn was easily the best of the lot with a balanced sound and good bass. I strongly recommend it (provided you can afford it). Junia brought his Nad + Plinius + Dynaudio over to my place. It sounded great as expected. But learning happened when I substituted my Pulz power amp and Pulz bookshelfs in the place of his components. It was quite clear that the Pulz actually has good dynamics. The compression I had noticed earlier seems to be caused by feeding it using a computer soundcard. The Nad CD player improves the dynamics greatly. The only drawback is that a CD player has too strong an output compared to a sound card. Therefore a player with volume control on remote would be a necessity (if you lack a pre amp). The Pulz competed well with Junia's system. It however lost out on clarity. Junia explained that the veiled sound was because the tweeter wasn't as revealing as the Dynaudio's. Its treble is generally rolled off. Bass reproduction was good on the Pulz - better than the Dynaudio bookshelf. It would be nice if other commercial members would copy Junia and offer components for home demos. This would reveal what we are missing in our existing setups.

Neutral schrieb:

My sincere aplogies Manek if I have confused you or other forum members. What I said, "The Pulz competed well with Junia's system. It however lost out on clarity. Junia explained that the veiled sound was because the tweeter wasn't as revealing as the Dynaudio's. Its treble is generally rolled off. Bass reproduction was good on the Pulz - better than the Dynaudio bookshelf." The Pulz is poorer on clarity and precision. It has a relatively veiled sound - meaning fewer details and loss of nuances. It certainly won't win against Junia's system on any count except the quantity of bass. But then it costs around a fifth of the high-end system. So looked at from a middle-class value-for-money angle, it's good. It would take a lot of professional testing on various songs to do a perfect A to B comparison. Junia certainly couldn't spare that much time. These are my initial impressions.

Manek schrieb:

OK neutral, I get it...thanks for the clarification. As you mentioned, pulz is a value for money local product and definately a good product to start with. Manek.

Hi Forum members,

I suggest that you go through this post in this entirety so that you are not misled by commercial or other vested interests into believing what you want them to hear.

http://www.hifi-foru...ead=702&postID=18#18

In brief, I compared two speaker systems - a high-end international system with a mid-end local system. I found that the local system produced good enough sound to satisfy the salaried Indian middle class. At a fifth of the cost of the international system (< Rs 30,000) vs Rs 1.5 lakh it delivered clean and clear sound without unacceptable biases.

Of course, the international system had more clarity and detail. But then in smaller towns, one can buy an apartment for Rs 1.5 lakhs! So after performing an A-B comparison within time constraints and equipment constraints, I posted my experiences for the benefit of forum members.

I am distressed that certain forum members have posted disparaging comments on my experiences without having even heard the systems in comparison. I hope other forum members will also perform A-B comparisons and post their views. Let's not be cowed down by commercial and other vested interests into hiding.

Please note that a forum is a place for exchanging views and as many learned members on this forum have stated, your experiences depend on your musical tastes. So there is no requirement at all for someone else to agree with your opinions.

Best regards,

Neutral (a genuine audiophile who is happy to help other middle-class people)

Dear Neutral,

I guess "commercial /vested interest = Indirect marketing...I get a bee in my bonnet whenever that crops up on this forum !

Can you do me a favor by posting word by word said on this forum, who you felt were indulging in these practices ?

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

P.S. I shall get into DRA soon...it is quite a long drawn explanation.

jsa_ind schrieb:

Hey Big Ears, We missed your inputs at the fag end ! Anyway all is well that ends well. The next time such a situation arises, we look forward to your early entry into the arena !! Regards, Junia.

Dear Junia,

Too bad I missed the fun towards the end, but, no sweat, there always is the next round to look forward to...

Cheers

Neutral,

Please note I have not tried to target you, from your posts it is very evident that you are a newcomer to this hobby, albeit an enthusuastic one. It is good of you to put in writing your findings about the few products you have auditioned, but as you grow into this hobby you will find your tastes evolve, and with time also learn what to look for.

Re your middle class comment, please understand, what Junia and self have been trying to convey to this forum is the fact that one need not despair, there are plenty of good, well endorsed products available to the enthusiast, but he needs to read and listen as much as possible to find out for himself.

Ref the Pulz amp, I dont want to knock it down, but some products acquire benchmark status at their price level and the 320 BEE seems to be one of those. So, did we not compare its international price to that of the Pulz and find the Pulz to be higher? I think I can also remember your remark then.

Cheers

big-ears schrieb:

Seems I missed much of the fun in the pow wow, and now, it will be difficult for me to reply to many of the comments made, but, what the hell, here goes. Gentlemen, I see a few of you asking me to first audition the makes being discussed, before putting them down. Excellent! Now I hope you understand my consternation when I see somebody preening about his purchases and putting down the efforts of others, without knowing the first thing about them! Siva, from your posts above, you seem to be of the opinion that there exist many good products in the market, and one has to spend a reasonable amount of time listening to quality products to understand what quality really is. Now, havent I come across that before? Maybe in my own posts, right from the earliest ones? So, when one sees an individual bragging about how good his purchase is, without any knowledge of what is available, it rankles. Either the guy is a genuine ignoramus, or he is deliberately trying to mislead others, at the behest of someone. Thank you very much for taking the pains to clarify it is not the latter. Hojo, without wishing to sound pompous, yes, I have had a reasonably substantial exposure to quality audio products. However, I have not been tom-tomming some purchase made so I don’t see the need to satisfy your curiosity on my experience. But, when you have outgrown your diapers on this forum, read my earlier posts and you will find that my little contribution to this forum is surely more comprehensive than just raving about some friend’s North Creek Audio speakers.

Even I have listened to quite a few products. So called-hi-end and genuine hi-end and also quite a few stuff made by real knowledgeable enthusiasts and I have come to believe that real quality is not the preserve of the pompous brands.And I have atleast a half a dozen hard-core audiophile friends who also believe the same.I really don't need your endorsement.
My sugestion to you was to listen and compare the brand in question and post your comments. It is totally worthless rubishing products without listening to them........what a laugh !
People who buy stuff and really like them may post their views on forums. They may even rant and rave about them. It is none of your bussiness.This happens all over the world in all forums. What is your problem ? If you don't like the product, post your views on why you didn't like it after listening to it. If you are curious, ask for more info or go and listen to it if you want to or just plain ignore it if you are not interested........It is as simple as that.
What is this stupid cartel bussiness about ? Ok.so tommorrow if somebody buys a KEF from Pro-fx and rants about the product, we can say he is paid by pro-fx right ??? ha ha ha what a joke ????? What if somebody goes on the forum and says that all the brand mongers here are all paid by the brand sellers ..what would you say to that ???

Hojo,

Before rushing to preach, please practice same yourself.

Read my posts properly before making your comments, because you are advancing my own arguments when you say "My sugestion to you was to listen and compare the brand in question and post your comments. It is totally worthless rubishing products without listening to them........what a laugh" - Looks like the laugh is on you!

And, if you havent noticed it before, a mature enthusiast does not keep tom-tomming his purchases all the time. He appreciates the fact that there are many good products around and his happens to be just one of them - not THE ONE. But then, one has to be mature himself to realise this...

So, try and make some contributions to the forum other than just talking about a visit to some showroom, or gushing about some friend's system, before knocking others.

Thanks Big-ears for the clarification. Audio is a difficult hobby and it takes many hours of listening to acquire critical appreciation skills. I hope that all forum members will try to learn.

Initially we are too enthusiastic about a few products and fail to notice the larger audio universe. But I guess all of us will mature like fine wine.

Cheers,

Neutral

Dear Hojo,

Are you really Hojo or someone else masquerading under a different hood ?

The terminology you use and your style of writing is strangely reminiscent of someone who I know....especially the Cochin stuff.....he too used to claim to go there very often !

Cartel is when a group of people persistently put down all the rest of the brands to promote the brands they promote, directly or indirectly. The seasoned campaigners can see through these games but often the newbies fall prey to these unethical games and end up buying stuff which they may regret doing so later on......

There are no absolutes in the world of Audio. If you were to refer to http://www.hifi-foru...=573&back=&sort=&z=1 you would see what I am trying to convey.

Regards,

Junia.

Neutral

Thanks Big-ears for the clarification. Audio is a difficult hobby and it takes many hours of listening to acquire critical appreciation skills. I hope that all forum members will try to learn.

Not all forum members but one and all should listen to all kinds of set up's to know the diffrences...I can understand your hurt feelings but nobody tried to push your Pulz system down...it just flared up when you mentioned

Junia brought his Nad + Plinius + Dynaudio over to my place. It sounded great as expected. But learning happened when I substituted my Pulz power amp and Pulz bookshelfs in the place of his components. It was quite clear that the Pulz actually has good dynamics.

....

Hojo wrote :

What is this stupid cartel bussiness about ? Ok.so tommorrow if somebody buys a KEF from Pro-fx and rants about the product, we can say he is paid by pro-fx right ??? ha ha ha what a joke ????? What if somebody goes on the forum and says that all the brand mongers here are all paid by the brand sellers ..what would you say to that ???

Since the day I've been a member of this forum many members bought new stuff and posed queries which needed solutions..like benks NAD overheating or speaker placement or my query about choice of Tara labs cables which helped me buy them..but we have had no one farting all around about their purchases...or just fuc**ing around the forum talking big or trying to market or push newbies into what one owns...Big ears owns Rotel but asked me to stay away as they don't gel with horns...If he had the intention to Tom tom his purchase he would've pushed nme into it..And in my view any person feels he has the best set up and goes around with nose and 8- in the air is the biggest fool I've seen..I hope bigears partly agrees with my point of view..

As usual

Dear Sub,

You are back with a bang....as usual.

Yes, I fully agree with your point of view above.

And this one here…..

Cheers

Junia wrote :

Dear Hojo, Are you really Hojo or someone else masquerading under a different hood ? The terminology you use and your style of writing is strangely reminiscent of someone who I know....especially the Cochin stuff.....he too used to claim to go there very often !

dear Juina I don't know whether anyone visits Cochin or SP road ,but have the same intuition that there's a rat under cover...well any camoflauge won't help them cover themselves coz their as*es stink to hell and they immediately get jerky, conscious in the assumption that other members are targetting at them when we have a general discussion...In the process to defend their business they retaliate...and when they retaliate it gets worse for them...