FS + SUB or FS for Stereo

Very well said Viren. Yes If this forum is to go anywhere, each individual's opinion has to be respected.

No wonder hi-end audio is very subjective. In the end what matters most is that the person is happy with the sound that he gets out of his system, maybe a 5000 Rs or 5 lakh system.

We all guys somehow tend to forget that its THE MUSIC THAT COMES FIRST, THEN EVERYTHING ELSE

Rgds

Prithvi

The suggestion that every individual's opinions, howsoever indiscriminate, be respected and not challenged in any way is very valid indeed.

I would then go a step further and request it to be re-named Hifi-Bulletin Board instead...

Cheers

Viren,

moral policing to me is not a mature thing to do, we are all mature people on the forum aren't we ?

Insinuations and rubishing certian brands dont hold any value over a certain point as people tend to get bored with it and do eventually pass such posts. In the past we have had others do the same and eventually it did not hold any value, and it actually affected the credibility of that person more rather than the product/brand.

Too much of anything is bad and it will adversely affect the insinuator if he/she continues to carry on like this . Trust me Digging ones own grave

Manek.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Junia wrote : Dear Hojo, Are you really Hojo or someone else masquerading under a different hood ? The terminology you use and your style of writing is strangely reminiscent of someone who I know....especially the Cochin stuff.....he too used to claim to go there very often ! dear Juina I don't know whether anyone visits Cochin or SP road ,but have the same intuition that there's a rat under cover...well any camoflauge won't help them cover themselves coz their as*es stink to hell and they immediately get jerky, conscious in the assumption that other members are targetting at them when we have a general discussion...In the process to defend their business they retaliate...and when they retaliate it gets worse for them...

Dear Sub_boss,
Filthy Language on the forum is uncalled for. Remember that others on the forum also know how to use filthy language very well. Maybe even better than you. They are not using it because they don’t want to stoop down to that level on this forum or are just plain mature enough not to do it.

sq wave wrote :

Dear Sub_boss, Filthy Language on the forum is uncalled for. Remember that others on the forum also know how to use filthy language very well. Maybe even better than you. They are not using it because they don’t want to stoop down to that level on this forum or are just plain mature enough not to do it.

dear sq wave,

if my style of writing has upset other members then I'm sorry to all and sundry...but talking about stooping down to levels then there are champions out here who can go upto any extent without using filthy language..and talking about maturity I think it's always better to talk straight here on the forum than going around the town talking rubbish about people....I pity those souls..

Very well said Viren. Yes If this forum is to go anywhere, each individual's opinion has to be respected.

Yes very true!..and ofcourse if an individual takes some to think then he's been labelled with all kinds of prefixes and people go talking ill around the town not to mention the behaviour which changes towards that individual...

Dear Sub_boss,
No offence meant!
It definitely leaves a bad taste when you login and you see stuff like this. People may have differences. After all this is audio we are talking about. Audio is one of the most subjective hobbies in this whole wide world. Naturally differences crop up.
Let music come first! I guess a more holistic approach from everybody would help.. This is my opinion.

Okay guys, i think this has gone far enough.

Things have really come to a head now that everything is in the open.

I agree with Prithvi that MUSIC needs to be brought to the fore rather than our frustrations and insinuations.

FAIK, some of the accusations,denials and counter accusations are valid, i guess we need to be more mature in our way of corresponding our thoughts and need to elucidate things succintly, yet, in as much detail so that the newbies nor the 'oldtimers' interpret our sentences wrongly.:( What say you?


The vituperations need to stop(that's for you Sub_boss, and ME and to whoever thinks,feels it applies to them). Vitriolic sentences and statements can be made to break the ice and have a bit of fun, but again should be done with some restraint and keep it from going to a sadistic level.
I have to admit that the usage of english by some of the members has been 'devastatingly' beautiful. And i draw inspiration from them to improve my vocabulary

It has been these strong words that are used in the forum that makes it worth the while for young 'punks' like me to visit the forum.
It brings a bit of excitement in my mundane life.

Well guys, it would simply be boring if all of us got along well. Its fun to have dissidences amonst ourselves.

Cheers,
Benkenobi

BTW, i listened to Siva's Acoustic Portrait FLRS yesterday along with Abhi.Pani.

To put it plainly, it is a good speaker.
would have loved to listen to it with an amp one would usually pair it with in the 'real' world. .

i think Siva needs to have this option, cause the Plinius and that oo a SA-102 is not something someone would have when he/she is going for a speaker in the 40-50k price range.

One thing that has bothered me ever since i heard the APs were the bass.
though it is there and is sufficient i have always felt it to be loose in the bass and my opinion did not change yesterday regarding this.

The mids was better than expected , howver the mettalic quality in the treble was evident in some numbers.

I have alwasy preferred a soft dome(silk) tweeter over the mettalic domes.
But, the tweeter is sweet and highs are rolled off pretty acurately.

All in all a nice package, however, i think it could be offered at a lesser price than what is being quoted.
It remains to be seen how they would perform with a NAD,Marantz,Denon, Arcam and the like.

Cheers,
Sachi

Dear Viren,

As long as people don't put down other brands ( directly or indirectly) to promote their brands for commercial gain and/or vested interests, I will not write what I am writing.

I have mentioned before what suits one individual may not suit another. We need to respect these values & not trod all over them, just because some of us think we are superior...to me that shows how insecure we really are.

Like you are a "Subjective" fan there are no "Absolutes" as to good & bad in Audio and that spills over to brands of audio gear too.

In the same light if there is a debate to be conducted on principles & concepts , let it be conducted in the light of matching ideologies & words on the same plane rather then cry foul and saying that arguments are being carried out for the sake or arguments. IMHO, it is better not to participate at all in such debates.

Regards,

Junia.

Benkenobi wrote :

The vituperations need to stop(that's for you Sub_boss, and ME and to whoever thinks,feels it applies to them).

I don't understand why use my name first here and it would be better if you make a suggestion than putting it like need to stop...I too don't like the idea of letting loose a barrage of acid comments...

Sq wave wrote :

Audio is one of the most subjective hobbies in this whole wide world. Naturally differences crop up. Let music come first! I guess a more holistic approach from everybody would help.. This is my opinion.

My opinion too.....ya diffrences are everywhere, but too may will cause sparks.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Benkenobi wrote : The vituperations need to stop(that's for you Sub_boss, and ME and to whoever thinks,feels it applies to them). I don't understand why use my name first here and it would be better if you make a suggestion than putting it like need to stop...I too don't like the idea of letting loose a barrage of acid comments...

I meant it in a bittersweet kind of way.
Take it as a paradox.
It would be good and a change to read some of the more colorful language that some of us use but too much of it is detrimental.
Nothing against you man.
Come on man , u know me.
Cheers,
Benkenobi

I liked the APs more than Benks did...
But we were unanimous in one thing that the speakers should be auditioned with mid level amp (NAD, Rotel even Denon)...
I dont say entry level amps because these are good speakers which can show off its capabilities if partnered with good electronics.

Bass was indeed a bit lose but was always there, I have heard some speakers which have tight bass but still the bass characteristics also matter, and I liked the APs for the same (somehow) but I really wish it had a tighter Bass.

Mids were quite good, guitar almost came alive but still my benchmark for mids have been the Quad 22L paired with Quad pre + power (heard at Total sound). The APs did a good job and may be a Quad Pre amp would have improved the mids in them also.

Highs, were just accurate and rounded off, to be specific it had the best highs I have heard in under 80k budget.
Again unlike Benks, I liked its 'a bit metallic' sound

All in all a very good speaker in under 50k range IMHO.

We also auditioned a speaker with Scanspeak drivers (at Corrson) and that made the APs (with vifa drivers) sound a bit underrated....I think so Benks..

I would sincerely suggest Siva to have an option of auditioning the APs with a mid-level amp as well.

I meant it in a bittersweet kind of way. Take it as a paradox. It would be good and a change to read some of the more colorful language that some of us use but too much of it is detrimental. Nothing against you man. Come on man , u know me.

Dude we need to have a holistic approach as sq wave suggested and only way of attaining it would be thru spiritual healing.. . I will hold back my blistering criticism ,caustic jokes,sulfurous denunciation,thunderous verbal attack
.................

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Dude we need to have a holistic approach as sq wave suggested and only way of attaining it would be thru spiritual healing..

Yeah, Right!( i mean it in the most sarcastic way)

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

. I will hold back my blistering criticism ,caustic jokes,sulfurous denunciation,thunderous verbal attack .................

If that happens, i guess, u guys will be seeing a lot less of me.
Would be no fun without the drinking and the puffing.

Abhi,

You could alway listen to the speakers with the Denon 3801 amp. Just requires the wires to be switched.

Benk says Mids was good, however, you are saying mids are not that good....see how people's opinion differ !!.

Should i say benks is correct or abhi is correct ..... ;-)

Here is the lesson....buy what you ears say are correct (subject to other parameters as well....VFM, Resale, etc.,)..bcos only you know what you need !!

My opinion...

Honestly i do not agree that the speakers should be demoed with a cheaper amp....just because it sells at some price point. You could always bring an amp of your choice and listen to the speakers via your amp...

If we would have used a 300watts amp to drive the speaker to cover up a "low sensitivity" factor...what you are saying could be valid. But the idea here is to bring out the best from the speaker...for the listners to fully understand the potential of the speaker.


Cheers
Siva.

Hello all,

I was going through my list of design literature, and re-read this article on speakers.

It's an excellent expose on the art of speaker design by Lynn Olson - one of the current design greats in audio.
Its been updated. Do read it!

www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design1.html

Viren.

Thanx Viren,
That was an excellent, though some what complex read.I think this deserves a thread of it's own.

Cheers
Krishnan

Hey Viren,
Very good reading ! An eye opener too……………….
Thanks.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Mids were quite good, guitar almost came alive but still my benchmark for mids have been the Quad 22L paired with Quad pre + power (heard at Total sound). The APs did a good job and may be a Quad Pre amp would have improved the mids in them also. I would sincerely suggest Siva to have an option of auditioning the APs with a mid-level amp as well.

Siva,
See I have never said that the mids are NOT GOOD. But since I am comparing these speakers on a very conservative scale that too with speakers at much higher price bracket so I had to mention the areas where other speakers bettered the APs. It can very well be because of the electronics which made the difference in both the setups IMO so I have clearly mentioned the exact equipment (in this case the pre-amp) which could have done things better for AP.


As far as a mid level amp is concerned, I dont think a Denon AVR can do any justice to a stereo setup. I know 3801 is a good AVR but I would never do the crime of evaluating a stereo setup (mainly speakers) using an AVR (that too Denon).
Carrying ones own amp can be a option but would be just too cumbersome for the following possible reasons:

1. One may not have a good stereo amp (even entry level hifi) because most people buy their speakers first (thats the way to go IMO).

2. Borrowing an amp is again not that easy until you are actually going to finalize the deal (over the speakers).
I mean we go around auditioning at number of places and its not practical to have a borrowed amp all the while.

3. Carrying amps again is a problem (one needs a car, cant be done on a bike atleast for various reasons)

The list can be longer.....
As far as bringing out the true potential of the speakers are concerned, I agree with that but still as a consumer I can very well relate to the feelings of other fellow consumers and almost everyone would desperately like to listen to them with a mid-level amp as well (if not entry level) that will help their buying decission a lot.
Just to add, its not like a Cinema Theater where you go to enjoy the sound instead you are actually looking forward to buy the audio equipment and for that one would desperately like to know how approximately the system would sound once he has bought it and carried it home.

abhi.pani schrieb:

As far as bringing out the true potential of the speakers are concerned, I agree with that but still as a consumer I can very well relate to the feelings of other fellow consumers and almost everyone would desperately like to listen to them with a mid-level amp as well (if not entry level) that will help their buying decission a lot.

Abhi,

Okay, i will take the feedback in good spirit. I will try to arrange one budget amp for demo...maybe an Marantz.

Cheers
Siva.

Dear Siva,

I have got a phased out model of 8100 Plinius lying with me, if you are interested let me know. I can hand it over to you in Jan when I am back in India.

No strings attached... but better mask the front end of the amp or I might accuse you of being part of my cartel !

This does not mean we should stop our heated debates...I quite enjoy these lively discussions on the forum !

Regards,

Junia.

Dear Viren,

Very good link, plenty of points to chew upon.....

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design1.html

Do you think you could start a topic of this link.....I don't want to steal your limelight !

Mention has been made of MLSSA & ACO Pacific, my favorities !

Regards,

Junia.

Junia,

By all means, do start a new thread.

I will certainly join in.

Viren.

jsa_ind schrieb:

Dear Viren, Very good link, plenty of points to chew upon..... http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design1.html Do you think you could start a topic of this link.....I don't want to steal your limelight ! Mention has been made of MLSSA & ACO Pacific, my favorities ! Regards, Junia.

do you guys have any suggestion for software packages simulating speaker setups in rooms. I know CARA is one are there any other ?

cheers

Dear Arj,

You may want to check these sites out.

They range from the basic to the most complex. It really depends how deep you want to get involved in this field !

http://www.renkus-heinz.com/ease/index.html

http://www.catt.se/

http://www.rpginc.com/products/chaos/index.htm

http://www.rpginc.com/products/roomoptimizer/index.htm

http://www.rpginc.com/products/roomsizer/index.htm

http://www.audiomatica.com/

http://www.mlssa.com/

http://www.ramsete.com/aurora/home.htm#Similar a whole host of related software !

Regards,

Junia.

Junia

Thanks for the offer...i will consider it, as i still have time till Jan.

Abhi,

Actually i do have an old MF A100 in my house...currently it's serving my wife in the kitchen with Radio. I'll have it moved to the demo room. In case any of you guys, drop by you could listen to the speakers via this amp.

Cheers
Siva.