FS + SUB or FS for Stereo

Ravi, Benks,

I had mentioned the same analogy to Squarewave in a thread earlier, where this issue was discussed threadbare.

Honestly, I cannot for the life of me imagine anyone today claiming that R&D is of no consequence, what with the breathless speed at which technology is advancing.

This means the Dynaudios/JMLabs/B&Ws of this world, to name but a few, are absolute idiots to invest so much in research and state of the art labs/engineering facilities. All one needs, to make an Evidence Master or a Grand Utopia, is a borrowed design, some drivers sourced off the shelf and a little neighbourhood joinery where he can put it all together.

Hey big-ears, I dug up the old thread and went thru it - its DejaVu, all over again!

could u please post the link for that thread Ravi?...am feelin too lazy to look for it..

I think we had discussed this threadbare in another thread long back.
If all the multimillion dollar technology is being used in the entry level floorstanders by all these giants (even by trickle down effect), then they would have sounded so much better. Sadly they don’t to my ears ! I think they are giving the good speakers to the rich who can afford their high-end lines and the entry level is pushed down the throat of gullible buyers through hype.

benks, here it is - just a simple search brought it up -
http://www.hifi-foru...rum_id=59&thread=635

I have drawn my conclusions and I wont depend on square_wave's ears to change those!

Hi Ravi, Benks,

I am sorry I dont quite know how to post the link here, but check out the "Indian products Versus Foreign products...who gives you the best deal ?" thread initiated by Junia on Pg 6.

I am sure you will find it pretty interesting!

Cheers

powersupply schrieb:

Should I buy a computer from my freindly neigheborhood grey market supplies or from a more expensive branded PC ? Given that All PC have good quality parts as well as performance. Hey! I'll not go for friendly neighborhood grey supplier. Instead I go for exp branded one, atleast it 'll 've some good resale value incase you want to dispose it off :P

I am a designer with the largest 3D computer gaming firm in India and we use the most powerful (workstations) available in India. Our testing and development use the most processor intensive applications and quality/stability of the workstation is most critical for us. Most so-called high-end home pcs are a laugh when you compare to what we use. We do not use a single branded pc in our company. It is all assembled to precision standards by our local assembler. W are very happy…

Should I buy a computer from my freindly neigheborhood grey market supplies or from a more expensive branded PC ? Given that All PC have good quality parts as well as performance.

Square I think you 've taken my short reply wrongly.

Buying from a grey supplier -> it's not that just buying PC. The grey operators will not 've proper establishment & no guarantee for your purchases, means you may not get after sales service support. Further, you cannot say how long they will be in that trade. I mean, dealing the same type of products. When they doesn't 've proper establishments they can close the shutters at any time or if they are into audio prod dealing, they may stop dealing that & may start selling Bras, Panties etc etc..

Buying from a authorised dealer-> you will not 've above probs + you will get genuine ones.

Highend home PC or what PC you use in your office is just the requirements. Definitrly you will not buy a PC with the configurations what you 've in your office for your home use. Tell me frankly what configuration PC you use at home

so what PCs are the users playing your games using? They cant use home PCs to play your games as the games were never tested on home PC processors as there isn't a single one in your company!

Anyway, it does not prove anything... try suggesting using local workstations in the company I work at and you would be laughed out of your job... even within branded firms, those that are not on the company approved/baselined list are not encouraged!
Would BBC have Lyrita speakers as studio monitors??

Anyway, this is all besides the point.
I am sure none of us expect you to change your opinions anymore. I'll just have a large bag of salt with me when I browse certain posts in this forum - and I fervently hope easily influenced newbies do too.

No use arguing over this

The idea behind the analog ywas only to prove that either decision could be right or wrong depending on how u look upon it..

and that seems to have been proved by both of you

[quote="ravi"]
Would BBC have Lyrita speakers as studio monitors??
quote]
There you go again. Monitors are high-end. A far as I know, nobody is making them in India.
We are talking about very serious sounding Indian speakers replacing entry to mid level imported floor standers here. It works for me. It works for Toshiba also who is using as their reference speaker for testing their processors in their development facility in Bangalore because they meet their stringent standards.

square_wave schrieb:

Monitors are high-end. A far as I know, nobody is making them in India.

As far as I have understood, a Monitor is only about as Hi end as a Bookshelf or FS. it is primarily a standmount capable of working without a sub hence could be any bookshelf speaker in the market extending down to 50 hz

Studios generally require a FLAT sound, something which would sound Boring to all of us ! hence studio monitors are not too hot on the home circuit..unless you listen only to audiophile cds.

Since, The like or dislike of a speaker to a ear is primarily the colour added by the speaker, if you tell me that a speaker is used in a industrial setup, i would avoid it like plague!

The quotation of its usage in toshiba is going to do nothing to this arguement as
1. Most Engineers/electronic designers know Squat about the musicality of sound, it is clinical to them (Think Fletcher Munson Curves here or rather the lack of it!)
2. Toshiba and good acoustics somehow do not seem very related , care explaining on why that usage makes them a better speaker ?

Hi All,

Ah interesting topic ! Speakers...indirect marketing...over hyping of products !! ...just what I was looking for !!

Sorry I havn't been active of late....but better late than never !

I would love to join this party !!

Junia.

square_wave schrieb:

quote] There you go again. Monitors are high-end. A far as I know, nobody is making them in India. We are talking about very serious sounding Indian speakers replacing entry to mid level imported floor standers here. It works for me. It works for Toshiba also who is using as their reference speaker for testing their processors in their development facility in Bangalore because they meet their stringent standards.

Squarewave,

At the very least, please show some consistency in your statements.

3 months back you were falling over yourself deriding all the Japanese Audio giants, so how come today you are resorting to the Toshiba name to bolster your argument? And, by the way, what presence does Toshiba have in the hifi world? I know Toshiba makes decent DVD players/TVs/Projectors, but high-end audio products?

I would love to know more from you.

big-ears schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: quote] There you go again. Monitors are high-end. A far as I know, nobody is making them in India. We are talking about very serious sounding Indian speakers replacing entry to mid level imported floor standers here. It works for me. It works for Toshiba also who is using as their reference speaker for testing their processors in their development facility in Bangalore because they meet their stringent standards. Squarewave, At the very least, please show some consistency in your statements. 3 months back you were falling over yourself deriding all the Japanese Audio giants, so how come today you are resorting to the Toshiba name to bolster your argument? And, by the way, what presence does Toshiba have in the hifi world? I know Toshiba makes decent DVD players/TVs/Projectors, but high-end audio products? I would love to know more from you.

I don’t want to waste anymore time on this thread.
All I can say is Listen without prejudice and decide what you want without being a victim to the hype propagated by any brand whether Indian or international. Let your ear be your guide. If you don’t trust your ears, learn to trust them by learning how to listen critically from people who can guide you.

square_wave schrieb:

I don’t want to waste anymore time on this thread. All I can say is Listen without prejudice and decide what you want without being a victim to the hype propagated by any brand whether Indian or international. Let your ear be your guide. If you don’t trust your ears, learn to trust them by learning how to listen critically from people who can guide you.

Squarewave

I must say that although your logic has me totally floored, it has also whetted my curiosity immensely.

Although you seem to have exhausted your ammunition, so to speak, on the other matters being debated, I would sincerely request you to shed some light on the following, for the benefit of our little forum community.

What is it that makes you believe, so strongly, it is only YOU who has seen the Light in all things audio and that all other poor souls around the globe are floundering about without the vestige of a clue?

Why are you so convinced that it is only YOU who has been blessed with the ability to “listen without prejudice, allowing your ears to be your guide”, whereas the rest of us have been cursed with terribly suspect listening capabilities / preferences?

What makes you so convinced it is only YOU who has the credentials to “guide”, possibly a million more experienced audio enthusiasts around the world, in the fine art of “listening carefully”?

Do you seriously believe that we, despite our much longer association with this hobby, and our exposure to a vastly wider range of high quality products internationally, should with immediate effect, stop using our ears, and more importantly our brains, and instead accept your ears / preferences as THE benchmark for all our audio related inclinations?

I would really appreciate more insight on the above.

Big ears, I suggest that we let it be.

After a little time into this, fresh after reading almost all there is to read on this subject, all of us do fall into the trap of thinking that we have learnt all there is to learn about it.

Now, it is only after actually listening to various audio equipment under different scenarios that actual practical learnings begin..that will definitely change the way one thinks.

Exposure to one way of thinking and one kind of experience is obviously going to make ones thinking too directional. also all of us have ideas about audio from our experience or experiences of our influncers , be they it friends dealers or family and we tend to cling on to it. but there are others with perhaps different experience who may know more .

the objective of a forum like this is to learn from that.

Arj,

Although our friend’s posts did sound quaint and amusing for a while, his constant refrain, climaxing in his last sagacious piece of advice – “Let your ear be your guide. If you don’t trust your ears, learn to trust them by learning how to listen critically from people who can guide you” -did get jarring.

What have we been listening through all these years – our a*******s?

The rest... you've said it. It is there for all to see.

Cheers

big-ears schrieb:

What have we been listening through all these years – our a*******s?

Now thats an interesting thought..Wonder how speaker positioning would be different if that were the case

Arj schrieb:

Now thats an interesting thought..Wonder how speaker positioning would be different if that were the case :KR

Good question!

And undoubtedly, for headphone enthusiasts, the Butt Kicker would be the ticket for the low frequencies.

Should we invite our forum members to come up with their ideas on the tweeter?

Cheers

Hey bigears then buying earphones..oops a** phones would be a tough job ...gotta find the right size..coz by the time you end up buying Hifi ,dealers would've oversized it for you..

Hi Sub,

Most of the dealers in India, whether you choose to buy speakers or amps or players, anyway do their best to make it oversize!

Dear Junia,

I had been taking Squarewave’s statements at face value all this while, but as you say, if he is indeed part of an indirect marketing scam, then it is surely pathetic. Maybe that explains why he cannot come up with specific replies in support of his claims, and instead, like some zombie, keeps resorting to the same mumbo jumbo chant.

What is also amusing, are the comments of some of our forum members, especially ones who have just recently stumbled upon this hobby, echoing these ideas. I would sincerely like to know from them which international products and home brewed products they have compared, and at what price level, to have arrived at such a conclusion. Also, what other products they have listened to, to give them an understanding of what high end audio is really all about, and what one should be looking for in a good system. It is not my idea to demean any of them, but, it is an accepted fact that one needs to spend a considerable period of time, listening to a wide variety of products before one even begins to get an idea about how quality systems ought to sound. Hell, I think I came across somebody here recently declaring he did not find a Plinius/Dynaudio combination to be as good as an entry level Pulz system! Any other forum and he would have been lynched!

I am also deeply amused by the great “conspiracy”, by international “branded” manufacturers, to con us poor gullible Indian consumers out of our money by deliberately peddling products of appalling design and quality, at the budget end, with our local manufacturers shining as beacons of virtue, offering absolute value for money. I know, prices of imported audio goods are high in India, but then, as we have discussed before, isn’t that mainly due to high customs duties, and even higher dealer margins? So how does the International manufacturer specifically benefit from the inflated prices prevalent in India, especially as he sells the same goods at lower prices throughout a hundred other countries?

I would appreciate knowing from Abhi or Benks the price of the floorstander that our friend Squarewave keeps raving about, so that we can discuss the costing and find out for ourselves which other speakers, would be available at that price level in the real world.

Cheers

Dear Rajendra and Junia,

What amuses me is the fact why compare a foriegn brand to an Indian in first place..they are mass produced and we can't even imagine to procure materials at the cost they get it at. I agree it's easy to add up value of drivers and cabinets and discuss to death about VFM of Indian brands..but what value are you considering..the ones quoted on some online sales site..Huh do you think Paradigm or Klipsch would use the same drivers and place orders online when drivers are exhausted???.

Bigears wrote :

Hell, I think I came across somebody here recently declaring he did not find a Plinius/Dynaudio combination to be as good as an entry level Pulz system! Any other forum and he would have been lynched!

Thats the most insane thing I've ever heard..I don't know how Junia held back his horses...Not to put down Pulz..but certainly worlds apart..

Hello all,

You know, I find it ironical that the very people who bemoan someone for airing his views have absolutely no compunctions of airing their own! Talk about living in glass houses!

All this talk is reminiscent of the grand debate "Objective versus Subjective". This divergence of opinion has prevailed through all of audio's history, and shows no sign of letting up. But, you guys should keep in mind that all the "real and relevant" improvements in audio, especially to the human experience of enjoyment of music, have come from people (maybe subjectivists) who continually questioned things. An example is the great technological advancement of digital audio by the inventor Philips - remember their great slogan "Perfect Sound For Ever"! And if you are old enough to recall the sound of those first CD players - the shrillness made you run out of the room! And where do you think these questioners of tradition worked before they established their own companies - in garages, with hand-held test equipment, and the most powerful and sensitive instrument of all - their EARS!

So, please do not discount your own ears. It's fine and dandy to read all the reviews you want - that final decision of what you really like has to be yours alone.

Of all audio components, speaker systems probably are the most subjective to listen to. In today's age, everyone, even the smallest manufacturer, has the processing power to do real-time measurements. Almost all measuring and testing is PC based. And it can be done in semi-anechoic conditions which don't require a custom built chamber. So, all that is a great leveller - not just the big companies have it anymore. And if it were just a matter of testing and measuring, then all loudspeakers should sound alike? But, they don't. The successful ones are the ones which are voiced with live music in mind - that mind involves the ears! And it is this effort of constantly experimenting and improving and listening that is reflected in the cost of the speaker. In India, we have a tendency to discount our own time. Time is very much an element of cost; and it takes a disproportionate amount of it to come up with a really good speaker.

So, don't put anyone down who has learnt to listen. All of us should be doing it too!

Viren.

Hi Viren,

Thanks for joining in!

The question is not about belittling anyone for airing his views, but discussing the views in question, and debating their veracity. Surely, every logically inclined individual has the right to do this!

The points being debated, over and over again, include but are not limited to the relevance of R&D in today’s world, the benefits to the consumer arising out of economies of scale, and whether products have improved over the years because of the efforts put in by the manufacturers who have invested in R&D.

Do you think otherwise? I am sure all of us would appreciate your views on this issue.

But, I would think your reply above repudiates this line of reasoning and only substantiates what we have been trying to say all along!

Your citing of the Philips example would only prove how integral R&D is to the quality of a product. Philips came up with a new format design, spent time over it, and through research and development kept improving it to the level it has reached today! You have cited only one example, there are hundreds of them in our everyday life.

Also, your assertion that we “do not discount your own ears. It's fine and dandy to read all the reviews you want - that final decision of what you really like has to be yours alone” is very valid indeed and exactly what we have been suggesting, post after post. In fact, anybody with even a little experience in audio would say that. But, is this ability to use our own ears and listen carefully somehow the monopoly of just one individual? Have we somehow been excluded from receiving this gift? And which is the agency that has certified that it is only this privileged individual who has learnt to listen?

Cheers

big-ears schrieb:

I would appreciate knowing from Abhi or Benks the price of the floorstander that our friend Squarewave keeps raving about, so that we can discuss the costing and find out for ourselves which other speakers, would be available at that price level in the real world. Cheers

I think the cost is upwards of 50k. I may be off by a couple of thousands but that figure is pretty much there.
Cheers,
Sachi

Benks, thanks for the info!

I thought I remembered Abhi quoting the price as 52K plus taxes, which would take it to 57-60K at least.

In my books, that is hardly budget! I thought by entry level floorstanders, one meant 20-25 K, but 60K?

I don’t wish to knock the manufacturer, good luck to him, but since I find someone on the forum repeatedly singing paeans to this particular product, I feel it would be worthwhile for others to take a more balanced view.

To give an idea about the street prices prevailing in the competition enabled real world, I bought my Dynaudio Audience 70s, brand new, at the equivalent of INR 38K. The Audience 80s were available for 50K. My Paradigm Studio 100s have cost me 75K brand new, and their smaller siblings, the Studio 60s are available for under 54K. These are dealers’ prices, with full warranty, and not grey market. The Dynaudios are designed and built in Denmark, and the Paradigms in Canada, so we are talking of European and Canadian salary levels at the manufacturing bases. You can do a search to find out what the international reviewing community has to say about these particular manufacturers, their standing in the world, and the build quality / level of engineering that goes into all their products. These are just two I have picked out because I have lived with their products and know their performance well, but I can cite many more I have listened to more than casually.

So at almost 60K, does this particular speaker, having outsourced off the shelf drivers, built in somebody else’s factory on a job work basis at Indian salary levels, with materials procured locally, sound like terrific value for money?

I don’t know, but am open to being convinced…....

Cheers

Big ears, your point on cost is valid.
Manek would be able to give us the equivalent speaker in the Cadence range. I think their India prices are favourable when compared to their US MRSP.

One concern for transaction with any business entity should be its viability. When one says Cadence or even Lyrita audio, one can find info even on the net to have a base idea to go forward on some analysis and then to do some listening. But when a name for which the only reference in google is this forum, then there is nothing to set ones perimeter. (Viren: the point is not about Indian Mfg..but about the small scale DYI kind)

Again it does not mean that the speaker is bad. it might be a wonderful one which beats speakers at 10 times its price range. but then HOW would you know it ?? with only 3 years into this hobby and 3 speakers old, I cannot talk if its Bass has a mild upper bass hump due to cabinet responance, if its treble as a dip at the crossover point etc to a great level of detail but i can get hints about these from the web for a well known speaker.

There is something called sound quality and something also called satisfaction of ownership and for that the only means is comparison.. If someone who had been in this field for many "ears" and having gone through enough audio components during this period were to say that a new low profile speaker is amazing,it may be worth considering else to me it is just a fad.

Nothing wrong with going by ones ears..but that does not mean that you are ruled by it. you need to plan out based on Budget/warranty/resale value/power requirement/room sizing etc to narrow down choices and only then go by the trust your ears part.

Hence the point is that its not just about sound

take the exaple of Meadowlark Audio. it used to make very good value for money speakers and even had a good fan following..But now that it is kaput, resale prices drop and things are not the same..same was the case with Dunlavy, which made amazing speakers.(Again they did do R&D on cabinet design as well as transmission lines)

Hi,

I sense a crisis of confidence in things homegrown. I know it will always be an uphill battle to compete with the "branded" stuff, especially if it is imported.

Designing audio components is an intellectual exercise, one that knows no boundaries. (You should know, sitting in the city of Bangalore, that put India on the International intellectual map). High-end audio, especially, is the result of committed sole individuals. Even the well known high-end audio companies were started, and are still controlled by, individual designers. That activity can be practised anywhere.

Big factories, economies of scale, fancy R&D budgets, do not guarantee good audio products. (They contribute to good marketing - that is why Bose, as a mediocre product, still is the largest selling in the world). That is because listening to music is a subjective experience. Products have to be designed to satisfy that experience. That sense of musicality has never been reduced to a specification, and probably never will. It is the sensitivity of the designer that brings the products close to that experience.

Anybody can sense whether a product is musical or not. Listen to some vocals with minimal instrumentation. You do not have to have "golden ears" to judge whether the voice sounds natural or not. That recognition is instinctively bred into us from birth - our association with our families is through speech. You do not need indoctrination into the "audiophile industry" to judge good sound!

And since you can best judge a product by listening to it, why don't you just do it! One of the products being talked about, Acoustic Portrait, is right there in your back yard. Before putting it down, why don't you go listen to it, and see if it offers value to you or not. You owe that to the designer. And you owe that to your audiophile selves in your search for better sound reproduction!

Viren.

Hi All,

It is good to be back with you all once again !

Viren is right ! There is a crisis and a deep disbelief in most Indian made products. Perhaps it is due to fact that most Indian manufactures are known to cut corners to make an extra back or two at the expense of the poor customer. While the gullible fall in for the bait of goods being relatively cheap, in the long run most of them rue their decision when they find out they have been taken in for a ride. Plus the fact that Indian electronic goods have no benchmarks to be adhered to. There is no CE or UL ratings to monitor what goes in ans ISI is mocked...the end result are cases where Dalda tins are used as laminates in EI core transformers, anodizing that is wafer thin, wide tolerances in critical components, sub standard components, poor workmanship, are some of the issues that routinely crop up, in some so called Indian audiophile certified equipment.

If Indian goods are supposed to be as good as they are touted to be, why is it only a handful make it to the international markets ? The deduction is simple, they can make it to those markets simply because they stand up to the scrutiny of time quality & performance. We need to ask ourselves if we are going in for Indian equipment, do the so called manufacturers qualify on these three points or not ?

I disagree that specifications need to be thrown in the dustbins...why do reputed companies than publish specifications in the first place ? Why are they world renowned companies that manufacturer benchmarking equipment ? Specifications & listening need to go hand in hand.

IMHO specifications are shyed away from manufactures who are too scared to revel how their products stand up against real benchmarks or simply do not have the capability to have their equipment benchmarked or both. It is those companies and/or individuals who always want to scoff at specifications and dwell on listening only, rather they correlating specifications & listening.

In defense of specifications.....I am yet to receive a response from Viren to my previous post Two Saturday afternoons well spend……. where I had mentioned:
"You are a manufacturer so I can relate to you....if in your circuit, it is called upon to use a 10 k resistor you would naturally use a 10 K resistor after which you could choose subjectively, if you like the sound off a 10 K resistor having a tolerance of 10% or 5% or 1% or 0.5% and X or Y or Z brands to your ears...... that is subjective & you are entitled to choose what you think best in your circuit. But you will not however put a 100 K resistor in place of a 10 K resistor...why??..., because the circuit SPECIFIES a 10K Resistor ONLY. You cannot say I subjectively think I should put a 100K resistor here when the circuit say's 10 K ...yes as you tweak the circuit 10K may go to 12 K...but all this is based on certain relative standards as called upon in the circuit you have in mind."

Again there was a debate on the similar issue in the post " Indian products Versus Foreign products...who gives you the best deal ?"

All said and done, apart from the above, I think this cartel of individuals with vested interests need to stop patting each other's backs to over hype each other's products, so that a buck or two is made at the expense of some gullible customers, who are blissfully unaware of the games that are being played.

Regards,

Junia.

Junia,

There's a simple reason why I didn't reply to you earlier - your analogy is nonsense. A circuit has to work properly before you can listen to it!

For any of you guys who want to learn about the real doers and shakers in the high-end audio world, please do look up the writings in the following two websites. Those who are satisfied with the me-too products of the mainstream audio world are certainly entitled to them.

www.sixmoons.com

www.positive-feedback.com

Happy reading!

Viren.

[quote="jsa_ind"]
All said and done, apart from the above, I think this cartel of individuals with vested interests need to stop patting each other's backs to over hype each other's products, so that a buck or two is made at the expense of some gullible customers, who are blissfully unaware of the games that are being played.



.quote]
Junia,
What "Cartel" are you referring to ? While I'm sure that there are loads of scamsters out there to make a quick buck,let's also give credit where it is due.

I would never have heard of Lyrita Audio or Accoustic Portrait were it not for this forum.And though I most certainly will not rush out to buy a pair based on the encomium for them on this forum, I will definitely audition them given an oppotunity.

Unlike most of you,I do not have a fine appreciation of the technicalities of audio,but I have been listening to music long enough to be able to tell, IMHO,the good from the 'besura'.In my experience I have come to believe that this is subjective.Over the years I have developed a preferance for a certain tonality and I let that guide my preference rather than a 'spec' sheet.

Which is not to say that one must rubbish the science in audio.Ofcourse not.But I think that the point here is that the experience of sound is individual and subjective.Much like taste,smell...Qualia,I think is the appropriate term to use.

So people in sum,let's all go and listen to Lyrita ,Accoustic Portrait...and let's allow our ears to be the judge.

Cheers
K

Dear Viren,

I thought you were the one that scoffed at specifications and wanted everything to be subjective, the point I was trying to drive is that specifications is the very essence of good listening. I am sorry if you couldn't comprehend what I was trying to communicate.

I guess Stereophile has to be laughed at and all the people who do subscribe to this magazine which presents specifications with a listening experience need to switch to "Sixmoons" & "Positive-Feedback". Anyone worth his salt would know what all three magazine are all about.

Regards,

Junia.

Dear Krish,

For the really smart folks on the forum, they can read in-between the lines to see how vested interests are being nurtured so very subtly on the forum.

Like I said specifications & the listening experience needs to go hand in hand, neither one needs to be given a preference over each other.

Reviews found in Stereophile are a fair example how both these aspects exist in harmony and form the very basis of a balanced judgement of how good or bad any particuilar piece of audio gear is.

Regards,

Junia

Hi Krish,

Yes, there are many smart people in this forum. Not only can these smart people can judge a product without seeing or hearing it, but they also can understand what a company does..... without having met anyone from the company. What more...they are so smart and experienced that they know know what happens in a factory in Europe without having the need to go there .... i think it must be the sixth/seventh sense that we keep hearing about.

I'm starting to learn a lot from these smart people. First, i think i made a big mistake buying a valve amplifier that has 10 times more distortion (according the SPECIFICATIONS) than the cheapest solid state amplifiers.....my in-experienced ears must be lying. I bought a big amplifier that had very good dampening factor according to the specs...but later a friend told me that dampening factor is only a marketing gimmick !!!....so should i go by the specication or not.....maybe it is better if i go by the advise and wisdom of these smart people.

Sorry about that sarcastic remarks...i find these things rather silly. My honest feedback are below...

1)There is too much stress on "Who is right"...in this forum. I see many people fighting to prove that the other person is either wrong or has ulterior motives. Guys, Music is all about person taste. There is nothing called "Correct" in this industry......i have not come across any audio product that is true to the "natural sound"...which makes just about every other audio product defective with respect to "Natural sound". Amoung these defective products, one product betters the other is some aspect and loses with respect to some other aspect. This permutation & combinations delivers - different result to different individuals.....so finally its just a matter of personal taste. While Sam Tellig raves about SET amps, i personally do not like them...i favor a solid state power amp comined with a valve pre...now.... does that make my choice bad.

I think people should give up trying to prove who is wrong and who is correct.......believe me this forum will be a much better place for all audiophiles to discuss thier opinions.


2)Before believing in any consirpary therories....plz validate the qualication of the guy who is proposing the theory...in terms of his nearness/working knowledge of the subjects involved in the theory. Since when did - patting someone's back become a consipary (Cartel).....i see it only as a desperate effort to paint someone else black. Don't fall for such dramatic statements...verify the facts for yourself. The more you encourage such nonsense, the more are the chances of preventing the forum from acheving its real objective.

3) You need not be a very experienced audiophile to list the speakers that are available in a given price point. Just turn the pages of a audio magazine...and u will find them. But is it going to help...in making your decision. You need to visit the company/dealer and see/hear the product for yourself. There are many people who come to our demo room with no intention to buy....our doors had always been open for everyone (well...we just need a prior appoinetment as it will clash other planned demos). The more the number of systems you hear, the more is your ability to make the right decision. As i had mentioned in on my earlier posts, the strength of an audiophile is the number of hours spent listening to various hi-end systems......and any such seasoned audiophile will know not to comment about a product without hearing it.

4) And...plz do not expect a commerical dealer to show his P&L list on this forum...and nor discuss details of their customers in this forum. It has adverse impact. All mature members who know about business and the confidentiality/ethics it involes will know what i'm talking about.

Thanks...signing off for now, hoping this forum will become a ideal place to discuss audiophile aspects...rather than who is right ..

Cheers
Siva.

Dear Siva,

You talk about "Ideal place to discuss about Audiophile aspects" yet I wonder how much of your contribution to this forum was/is directed toward discussing "Audiophile aspects" and how much was spent in defense of Acoustic Portraits. I did run and check and saw things for myself, your posts speak for themselves. Which cannot help but decipher what your real intentions are.

It is not a question of who is right and who is wrong, it is a question of What is right & what is wrong. I am sorry if you cannot differentiate between the two. For the small & narrow minded they would perceive posts that are contrary to their ideologies as threats & attacks for the mature they treat debates with enthusiasm & vigor. One has to decide which camp they find themselves in.

If you cannot see a cartel for vested interests again I cannot blame you...sometime the obvious is difficult to decipher..I guess that has to be left to the "smart people"

You are so right the strength of an audiophile is in the number of hours spent listening to various HI-END systems.....we only have to differentiate what qualifies as truly high end audiophile gear & what does not. Many a time so called high end audiophile gear is not high end...more hype than anything else. That is when the tests of time quality & performance comes into play...performance includes technical specifications and listening tests.

We just have to sit on the sidelines to watch who shakes out in time and who does not !

Regards,

Junia.

Thanks to Viren for sharing his views, but to my mind they only seem to raise a few more eyebrows.

For starters, his deprecating remark on the “me too” products, which is obviously in reference to the products cited by me. Paradigm, Plinius, Dynaudio, B&W, JM Lab etc – all “me too”? Whereas Lyrita / Acoustic Portrait super-specialist high-end?

Then, his pointing to the Positive feedback and 6moons websites. Fine entertaining websites, which I guess many of us have been reading for quite some moons now, but honestly, where is the relevance? As it is, in India it is so difficult to get to audition the better of the “me too” products, so where would one come across the products mentioned on these websites? And their prices? Budget level?

Then his remark that economies of scale and fancy R&D budgets do not guarantee good audio products. Well, the companies we are talking of are those which have built up a substantial amount of credibility designing and manufacturing “good audio products”, year after year, so would he seriously have us believe that all their R&D is hogwash?

Then the statement “anybody can sense whether a product is musical or not”. Earlier he asks us to learn how to listen carefully, and to appreciate some one who has; now he says anybody can! Sorry, but I dont buy that! IMHO, it takes time, and exposure to various good products, to really understand what high-end sounds like. Take a pair of shiny big JBLs with 10 inch woofers and place them side by side with a pair of Dynaudio Special 25s or C1s, or even some of the speakers reviewed on the 6moons/positive feedback website. Now ask 10 newbies to do an A/B of all these speakers. A substantial majority would find the boom n tizz of the JBL to be more impressive and musical than the neutrality of the others. So, would Viren confidently declare the Special 25 / C1s / ultra specialist speakers to be rubbish? For proof, you need to look no further than the newbie on this forum finding his own entry level homegrown system to be superior to a Plinius/Dynaudio combination. So, their years of awesome credibility notwithstanding, basis this individual’s findings, would Viren trash Plinius and Dynaudio?

His appeal that we “owe” something to the designer of Acoustic Portrait is quite strange. Why?

Also strange is his endorsement of a particular individual’s listening prowess, in an earlier post. Does Viren really know this individual so well that he is able to certify, in writing, his hearing capabilities?

Come on, were we born yesterday? Or, as the saying goes in Mumbai, have we come from Alibag?

Cheers

Alibag, Gurgaon or Copenhagen, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and then waiting for the digestion cycle of the same to be completed (the morn after).

Foreign brands certianly come with big reputations on R&D, reliability, good looking designs. R&D to my mind is a big way forward for a brand. One should'nt forget that a consumer should have a very satisfying ownership experience as well.

Efforts are made to make products measure better and then to sound better and more reliable. That to my mind is the starting formula for success. Then comes the ownership experience and no amount of R&D can substitute for poor sales and support on the ground when the need arises.

A lot of foreign and local brands have come under fire for poor reliability, sales and support in India which dilutes the ownership experience for the consumer. The Indian retailer generaly is still grappling with notion of customer service and has to reach the levels of western countries...and our retailers are learning as customers are more savy (sometimes know a lot more than the retailer), more demanding of prices and service and more concious of brand value.

If the total purchase and ownership experience is good, then a repeat buy is always on the cards and good word of mouth is ensured.....and thats what retailers must focus on to be successfull, for their brands to be successfull.

It is common today for consumers of Indian brands to be satisfied customers.

Its the total brand experience that counts !

Manek.

Very interesting discussion !
Big ears,
I think all viren asked was to LISTEN AND COMPARE – and then come here and air your VIEWS! What is wrong in that ? Isn’t it perfectly logical ? There is no point in rubbishing any product without hearing it right ? I don’t know if you have listened to the above mentioned products. If you have, why don’t you tell us the merits and de-merits of the products instead of just yapping away about R&D etc... I have come across quite a number of speakers made by small players and even very good “DIY Kits” in the US which gives some big players a run for their money. Very notable example is the -northcreek audio- speaker owned by a friend of mine. He had gone through a couple of so called high-end speaker before he settled down with this 1500$ speaker. I find it better sounding than the jamo D series floorstander which costs around a couple of lakhs. Listen and tell us. Your mileage may vary. Then let’s discuss the merits-demerits and make this an interesting discussion instead of just attacking each others throats.
Every body has their own experiences. Tell us your experiences with speakers made by brands and u’r comparison to speakers made by very serious and passionate individuals who know their job. From my experience, the later always sounded better when you compare the price the brands ask of you for similar quality. Your experience may vary.

“I wonder what the fat Chinese lady at the conveyor belt in the Chinese speaker factory will do to my speaker if she had a tiff with her husband in the morning”

Dear Hojo,

Be careful...you are about to become a part of the Cartel ;-)

Mr. Big Ear,

There is no need to be so paranoid. I've neither seen or spoken to Viren...neither has he visited us or seen our products. I do think either myself or Viren are intrested in taking advantage of this forum for commerical reasons...there is no need for us to do so.

I think Viren was just mentioning that small scale manufacturers also have credible reputation in this industry....i do not think the intention was to say one product is better than the other...not sure why you interuppted the message in this manner.

If you do not believe that a homegrown product cannot be better than Dynaudio...fine, there is nothing wrong in having such a perspective.

However, there is no need to be hostile towards some who believes the other way around. Do you think someone like Square_Wave, who is smart enough to earn sufficient money to pay a small fortune for a pair of speakers....is not smart enough to compare the product he was buying with others....what makes you think he has'nt (Neither is he from Alibag, nor was he born yesterday ;-)).

He has different opionion and priority compared to you....that's all. Like i said, everyone is correct only to themself...as far as this hobby goes...it includes like Manek mentioned "overall brand experience"....but a few parameters that define this experience can vary from person to person.

Cheers
Siva.

Hi All,

Someone has decided to come down his high horse at last !! Looks like after all the pen is mightier than the sword !

Also it is hilarious how one goes to such great extents trying to condone himself as to not indulging in unethical indirect marketing gimmicks......there is another word "Guilty Conscience"

Regards,

Junia.

Hi All,

Could someone tell me percentage wise how many places offer auditions with competing brands in the same price & specifications range auditioned in a direct A/B comparison.

I think the proof of the pudding is having competing brands, retailed by others, directly compared in the same listening environment...what do you all think ?

Regards,

Junia.

while this has been entertaining to watch i would like to add some of my own opinions.
I have found that Stereophile reviews are not everything and 6moons and positive feedback to be inefficient or biased in their views, if only as much as stereophile or any other magazine is.

The polemic subjective v/s objective issue will never end and this thread or any other thread will not help us in reaching a solution that would be all pervasive appealing to eveoryone's doubt.
WE can all agree that the listening experience is both subjective and objective while buying or auditioning.
But once you buy a system the whole experience shits to the subjective group as that is all that matters thereafter.

There are flaws in the replies that i have seen from both big_ears, Junia and siv,Viren,square_wave.

While it does seems that there are some ulterior motives among some of the commercial members and those who have bought their equipment , the valid point made by Siva regarding hearing , listening to their stuff before being nitpicky and overly critical of their products stnads.

But some of the statements made by Siva, Viren and especially square_wave makes me seeth with anger and disappointment. anger becasue frankly some of the stements made by them makes the rest of us look like idiots or refer to us in that sense.
Statements like these are in poor taste and one can see that he is defending square wave only because he bought his speaker

"However, there is no need to be hostile towards some who believes the other way around. Do you think someone like Square_Wave, who is smart enough to earn sufficient money to pay a small fortune for a pair of speakers....is not smart enough to compare the product he was buying with others....what makes you think he has'nt (Neither is he from Alibag, nor was he born yesterday "

U are inferring that the most of us are incaplble of making a descion and suggest that we throw away our hard earned money on what we buy.
U truly are incapable of making an argument to support your so called "audiophile" views. You sir, keep changing your statements to suit the situation and i find it reprehensible.
Statements like learn from those who know how to listen and stuff are irresponsible and inconsiderate.
what utter bull crap. Its not like we can't listen(Duh!) its what we want to listen to .
what u want to listen to may mot be the same thing that some of us look for in the music that is reproduced.
And all that crap about turntable and analog sound that some of the members have expressed.
one must understand once the sound is amplified or captured using microphones the reality is lost.
Nothing can ever reproduce that atmosphere of being there.
Not even the best equipment with all the DSP power that can be harnessed out there in the so called audiophile world can reproduce it
SO stop with the 'audiophile' shit.


Cheers,
Benkenobi

Dear Benks,

Way to go Benks ! Your deductions were bang on !

Wasn't it siva who wrote:

Benks
Truly appreciate your effort in DIY. But I do not think you are on the right track. Your proposed project sounds more complicated than an expensive Wilson Audio.

My recommendation :

Step 1: Buy a DIY Kit and experiment with different cabinet, dampening, crossover, components, etc., You will be suprised - how complicated it would be to arrive at the right dampening for your project. It could take months or even years of experiments to get the speakers perform to their full potential.

Step 2: Based on your experience from Step 1; Start with a simple two-way speaker design of your own. Three way speakers are a difficult to even the most experienced of loudspeaker designers.

Step 3: After a few simple projects (and a few years), you should be ready to design the project of the type you are proposing currently. Let's not discuss this further on this forum. Probably diyaudio.com is a better place..........

Now doesn't he sell DIY kits and didn't he say that "I do ( actually I think "do" was in his mind all along and not don't !!) think either myself or Viren are interested in taking advantage of this forum for commercial reasons...there is no need for us to do so."

I don't know of any DIY speaker retailers in India except himself.....now if that is not blatant marketing what is ?

He scoffed at your posting on your speakers and your foray by stating "Let's not discuss this further on this forum. Probably diyaudio.com is a better place.......... I think 160 replies & 962 views later (your post wasn't removed or edited by the Moderators)...still counting, he might want to change his views about you, your efforts Benks and the appreciation you have received from all quarters. Months.... years did I hear someone say it would take that long to get your speakers going.....wow long time.....I was given to understand you are ready to start your first trials in days time......that too of active speakers not the passive DIY kinds available at super high prices.

About him & square-wave apart from others in the gang....no Sir there is no cartel....no marketing gimmicks..nothing..they are just buddies ha ha I guess he should think we are all from Alibag !!!

BTW, I wholly endorse your statement of "We can all agree that the listening experience is both subjective and objective while buying or auditioning. But once you buy a system the whole experience shifts to the subjective group as that is all that matters thereafter".

Regards,

Junia.

benkenobi schrieb:

U are inferring that the most of us are incaplble of making a descion and suggest that we throw away our hard earned money on what we buy. U truly are incapable of making an argument to support your so called "audiophile" views. You sir, keep changing your statements to suit the situation and i find it reprehensible"

Benks

Again a mis-understanding of my statements. I do not intend to say that either i'm or some else is a better audiophile than the other ... infact its just the opposite.

Infact if you read my message more carefully you will understand. What is good for you might not be good for others....does that mean one person is better than the other....never in this industry. We are not trying to prove a mathematical formula here...this is a very subjective matter and no one particular individual can be correct.

I have to agree that i differ with your opinion on many aspect with respect to analouge sound, loudspeaker design, etc.,....but does that mean either my opinion or your opinion is superior...its just different (Afterall its just "opinion")

1) My message to big-ears was to respect others point of view as well......now if that meant like hurting anyone...my apologies...but intent was never that.

2) My only audiophile view had always been "listen to as many systems as possible...that enables you to make better decision". However, i have never said that a particular perspective of audiophile concept is better than other. Benks, you had and still have the oppurtunity to listen to many hi-end systems in Bangalore...that will enhance your ability to further perfect your projects..my earlier postings was to encourage you to listen as much as possible...and also to take feedback from other audiophiles who have heard many systems. This had helped me in the past...and still continues to help.

3) The reason for my recommendation on the approach for loudspeaker was not intended bcos i wanted you to buy a kit, but bcos, there were a few technical issues that are bit complex to handle in a first DIY project...including time alignment, baffle diffraction and phase-coherence. In my opinion, the first DIY project should be focused on learning the basics. Ofcourse, if you are using a proven design as the basis for your project or have done sufficient homework yourselves , you need not worry about these aspects.

4) I do not think i'm defending Square_Wave's statement. I'm not saying his opinion is the Veda to be followed by everyone. All i'm saying...his is just another opinion and lets respect that opnion. His opinion - definetely may not be agreeable to someone else. The best advise to give to a newbie is to share all your opinion and your feedback...then he can listen and see for himself.

5) Having said that - I do not agree with Square_Wave's opinion that imported brands are not good. Every brand has thier own voicing which makes - a particular brand a favorite to some folks and not-so-good to others. For example, it looks like Big-Ears like Paradiam and Dynaudio, but he might not like some other brand say Sonus Faber becose its voiced differently. Like Arj has mentoined resale value is better with imported brands. An individual has to make the choice by listening and considering other aspects such as resale value, brand experiece, etc.,...depending on how important they are to him.

Guys, take my posting as an opnion ... its not intened to be adverse..and never was. Nor are there any hidden agendas.

Cheers
Siva.

benkenobi schrieb:

Nothing can ever reproduce that atmosphere of being there. Not even the best equipment with all the DSP power that can be harnessed out there in the so called audiophile world can reproduce it SO stop with the 'audiophile' shit.

Read my first post on this thread....i mean exactly the same...just different words.

Cheers
Siva.

Oh long reading on a very interesting thread. It could well give those talk shows a run for their money.
Here is my take on this:

They say smart marketing (unethical and all), forming cartels etc. I say the rest of us (sans commercial members) have been able to identify such tricks and are atleast aware of this now after this nice little (did i say little and nice) thread!
So the more we (sans commercial) talk on this the better airtime and publicity we are giving to the commercial ones to air more views and hence keep the indirect marketing going. Cartelling here! (dunno, anyways)
So if we start learning to putting up with this kinda stuff, then its only normal that all the commercial members will start talking straight. By putting up with this I mean, stifling our responses, that actually adds fuel to their fire.

But hey on the flip side, thinking from the commercial members side, every business is here to make money (thats the bottomline - almost). So give them their little attempts at such bravados. We (sans commercial) fall for it because we havent been careful. Thats one way to look at it, anyways...

hmm hmm

Guys,
I have been following each and every post on this thread almost instantly .....

Initially it looked like yet another interesting audiophilic discussion and I have to agree that this thread encapsulates a hell lot of knowledge inside.

But here are my takes after reading some recent posts made by square_wave, siva, Viren, Big_ears, Junia, Arj etc....

Man all you guys are senior members on this forum having plenty of knowledge about high-end audio. But this discssion has turned out to be way too non-audiophilic..
What I mean by saying "non-audiophilic" is some basics are missing while putting forward the views. That makes the discussion as if each one is putting forward his argument just to WIN this debate. I dont think thats the objective of this forum.

1. Square_wave saying "Learn to listen critically" is bullshit IMO. Man you listen through your ears then why scratch your head in listening critically. Are we into some research when we listen to our home audio (hifi or otherwise)? We listen to enjoy music and that should SOUND GOOD TO OUR EARS and entertain us thats all.
If you believe in scratching your head over critical listening (as if sitting in a NASA lab figuring out the sound from a defective space shuttle) then its your choice but why advocate that to be the ideal way to judge speakers ? Moreover it smells from your posts that those who dont believe in critical listening (NASA STYLE) are fools and are better off with BUDGET SPEAKERS AND ELECTRONICS !!!! What the hell ????

2. Secondly there is a very valid point made by Siva/Viren which is again nothing but the basics. It is an astonishingly senseless and non-audiophilic act to comment on a gear without listening to it... It is all right to condemn someone who believes that R&D/Specs are irrelevant but no way one should comment on the gears without listening to it. If one is doing that its GARBAGE IMO.
Whether its direct marketing or indirect marketing or no marketing we cannot forget our basics while puting down our opinion !! The whole thread loses its relevance/weightage as the discussion itself seems to be among the few laymen and not audiophiles.

Its quite evident from the previous few posts that even valid points made by a member (Commercial or otherwise) is not being accepted gracefully. I think we need to be more conscious about the fact that while we are in this forum, the purpose and ethicallity of this forum is above the purpose of our opinions.

I dont mean to hurt anyone its just my views on the thread.
BTW I dont own a Lyrita or AP nor any other imported gears...