dac

Absolute Phase is the dealer for Arcam in Bangalore so they should probably stock the Arcam rDac:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,solo,dacs,rDac.htm

I have not heard the current crop of budget DACs, and would be REALLY interested to know if a Budget CD / DVD player feeding a budget DAC actually out-performs a serious CD player in the same budget.

Practical experience, anyone ?

Purnendu

I tried to hear the vdac and rdac in mumbai but in vain.
I guess I wasn't buying a multi lac dac :-) costing half its price in the US :-)

If you do happen to listen to the above two, do let us know your view.

Ampnut, yes in my opinion they do.

Manek

Hi Manek,

Thanks for the feedback. Interesting ....

Any specific equipment pairing worthy of mention ?

Take it a step further, would the Arcam rDac + a vanilla DVD player (Rs 2.5 k ? ) outperform the ARCAM CD Player that is priced just above the rDac ?

Ditto For a Cambridge Audio DAC vs CD player ?

Guys,Thanks for the feedback.

Since I already have a cd player (AA primo) which will get me next to nothing were I to sell it, a DAC is obviously the most economical way to go. So if the RDAC sounds better than the existing CDP, which is working fine, then thats good enough for me. If it sounds as good as a cd player of the same price (i.e my existing cd player plus dac) then great, but I have my doubts. A higher quality CDP (approx 50-60 thousand price range)would probably have a better transport and other features.

I find The prices of higher level cd player in India are much higher than the ones quoted in UK USD etc.

I cant remember where but I saw an India internet purchasing site where the MF V DAC was on sale and the price was also what it ought to have been.

Sound wise what I am looking for is less congestion during orchestral climaxes, and a better instrumental timbre such as in a string quartet.

purnendu

Hi Purnendu,

You have an interesting system, with a LOVELY pair of speakers.

How does your CD playback sound quality compare with your Analog Turntable ?

With tghe upgraded DAC, are you looking for beating your Turntable sound ?

Amp nut,
Thanks for the 'interesting' compliment,
Am at home today, and am listening to the Amsterdam Duo performing a Mozart violin and clavier piece - as I write - on the turntable chain. Listened to some Chopin earlier in the day. Its intimacy all the way...

As for comparing the two chains -digital and analog- it would be wrong to say that one is completely superior to the other. As far as instrumental timbre is concerned, the TT beats the cd hollow, but for loud listening I do find that the CD system is what I prefer. I have all the Beethoven and much of Mahler on both sources, and when I want to blast its the CD that I prefer. With large orchestral works at high listening levels the analog system tends to lose its coherence or integrity in my set-up.On the other hand however while the cd chain does not come apart (distort, break up), at high volumes it gets all lumped together ie, poor separation of instruments.

I do listen to some Jazz also and here too I find that while the LPs are more physical and immediate (and I have very few of them) the CDs have a more obvious kind of impact, if that makes any sense. This could be because the bass is usually more prominent with CDs but then my speakers are not made for bass. On the other hand the limitations of the TT system could perhaps be overcome with a better -quieter- phono stage.


So there.. I have bared my heart! Now help me upgrade
my digital source, within a modest budget ofcourse.

Ampnut,

I have always believed that pioneer has always given decent transports and pairing them with entry level dacs is fun and rewarding.
Now, for ex a 5k pioneer with a 30k dac, will it beat a 35k cdp ? If you choose the right dac then yes. I have experimented with a pioneer dvd and sony blueray with firestone (spitfire + bravo). The pioneer + dac combo is better.

My search for a cdp in the same price bracket is over.

Manek

Purnendu, Thanks for the nice description and comparision.

Could the sound breakup / distortion at high volumes simply be due to acoustic feedback ? That would be relatively simple to fix..

Manek, Yes, i agree with you, Pioneer makes great transports. Even Theta used a Pioneer player, upgraded the PSU, tweeked it, re-badged it and sold it for several times its price. I had the privilege to hear it along with the Theta Gen VIII DAC in my system, a month ago....

Ampnut, It is possible that the break up is due to acoustic feed back, since the speaker is quite close to the TT. The Kit is however mounted on a TNT table with heavy MDF sandbox, and the TT itself is set on a granite slab which is placed not directly on the sand, but on a 12by 10 inch rubber pad the thickness of a mobile, under which lies another slab of mdf which then rests on the sand.

To come back to the DAC: what would you folks reccommend? If its worthwhile I can spend upto 30 K, the figure Manek is mentioning. Whether the AA Primo makes a decent transport compared to Pioneer I cant say. Its a samsung mechanism, looks like a computer sled to me. While the reviews I could find dont think much of this CD player,this is with reference to the digital conversion not the construction. As far as I can make out the box is quite solid and does not vibrate etc, the power supplies too seem well put together. It has a s/pdif outlet.

The V DAC is available at audiomart, but at Rs.21000 which is twice what it ought to be (ukp150). I do wonder why?

Ampnut, you may find this hard to believe but I have heard a pioneer dvd player(under 10k variety) paired with a theta dac a few years ago and with surprisingly very good results :-)

That day on, I have always viewed transports with a little bit of skepticism :-)

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Ampnut, you may find this hard to believe but I have heard a pioneer dvd player(under 10k variety) paired with a theta dac a few years ago and with surprisingly very good results :-) That day on, I have always viewed transports with a little bit of skepticism :-) Manek

Transports start to make marginal sometimes even very significant differences once you start using the dedicated ones.
The transports used in budget cd players are maybe as good as what you get in a decent dvd player. Hence a decent dvd player plus a DAC may beat a cd player under 40k or so.

There is also the issue of the lens assembly in a dvd player which can make things a bit whacky. Got this info from another thread on a different forum.

I quote:

The number of pits that make a bit/byte is much more in a DVD as compared to a CD. Consequently, a DVD read/write head has to move in smaller steps to read the larger number of data pits. How does this matter? By the simple fact that a read head is a electromechanical device and is always prone to making errors. While reading from a CD, it could skip a few pits giving you erroneous data.

How does this affect the reading mechanism ?

Simply because the way the head positions itself for and moves depends upon pits per sq.cm. In a CD player, the head is programmed is read a fixed number of pits per sq.cm. In a DVD player, the read head has to align itself differently every time you change the media. Since we are talking about very small movements related to the speed at which the media is rotating, there is always a chance of an error. This can of course be avoided if very high quality parts are used, and the head make a few sample runs till it aligns itself properly. This is never done in a DVD player.

Manek schrieb:

Ampnut, you may find this hard to believe but I have heard a pioneer dvd player(under 10k variety) paired with a theta dac a few years ago and with surprisingly very good results :-) That day on, I have always viewed transports with a little bit of skepticism :-) Manek

Hi Manek,
I have a Pioneer DV535 player. I have tried it as a transport and it sounded astonishingly detailed and dynamic for a flimsy DVD transport. But then over a period of trying quite a few transports I have come to believe that a good transport is not just about detail and dynamics but also about how well it "presents" that detail. A really good transport will present music in a way which is closer to analog while retaining every little information. Not really easy IME. The more the detail an equipment retrieves the tougher is the challenge for it to present all those details in one "musical" harmony. Someone has truly said "With great power comes great responsibility" .

square_wave schrieb:

Manek schrieb: Ampnut, you may find this hard to believe but I have heard a pioneer dvd player(under 10k variety) paired with a theta dac a few years ago and with surprisingly very good results :-) That day on, I have always viewed transports with a little bit of skepticism :-) Manek Transports start to make marginal sometimes even very significant differences once you start using the dedicated ones. The transports used in budget cd players are maybe as good as what you get in a decent dvd player. Hence a decent dvd player plus a DAC may beat a cd player under 40k or so. There is also the issue of the lens assembly in a dvd player which can make things a bit whacky. Got this info from another thread on a different forum. I quote: The number of pits that make a bit/byte is much more in a DVD as compared to a CD. Consequently, a DVD read/write head has to move in smaller steps to read the larger number of data pits. How does this matter? By the simple fact that a read head is a electromechanical device and is always prone to making errors. While reading from a CD, it could skip a few pits giving you erroneous data. How does this affect the reading mechanism ? Simply because the way the head positions itself for and moves depends upon pits per sq.cm. In a CD player, the head is programmed is read a fixed number of pits per sq.cm. In a DVD player, the read head has to align itself differently every time you change the media. Since we are talking about very small movements related to the speed at which the media is rotating, there is always a chance of an error. This can of course be avoided if very high quality parts are used, and the head make a few sample runs till it aligns itself properly. This is never done in a DVD player.

SW, going OT..but there is another info , although in the favour of DVD Roms.
when CDs initially came up Lens' were much larger and the sensitivity was really low. today the lens and the laser reading electronics is far better and hence a DVD player will read/track a cd extremely well...better than CD Roms

the problem is that transport mechanisms are all plastic and not so rigid making them really liable to vibration errors.
many CDPs like meridian use DVDRoms but i believe they do tweak them mechanically

now take the dvd player, isolate it! Dampen the innards a bit, mass load it with a couple of kgs of weight, play your song.

Manek

Manek schrieb:

now take the dvd player, isolate it! Dampen the innards a bit, mass load it with a couple of kgs of weight, play your song. Manek

hear, hear!! somebody who seems to have a keen understanding of one of the items that makes the CDP/DVD/transport tick.

Arj said:

the problem is that transport mechanisms are all plastic and not so rigid making them really liable to vibration errors. many CDPs like meridian use DVDRoms but i believe they do tweak them mechanically

A CD mechanism can read only in real time ( read at 1X and continuously output the read data. As a result, and error in reading cannot be corrected by Re-reading )

In contrast, a Computer DVD ROM ( Computer CD ROMs are obsolete and no longer available ), can easily read a CD at 2x or 4x, giving it enough time to re-read in case of errors.

The read data from the DVD ROM is stored in a temporary (buffer) memory and streamed out, as required.


Personally, I am not sure I buy that argument that SQ has quoted from another forum..

Guys,
if you do a little research on this matter of CD transports or DVD transports making errors whilst reading a disc (be it CD or DVD) you will quickly come to the conclusion that even the cheapest transport rarely makes an error during read. This has also been concluded by many other audio & computer-philes.
The sound quality of various CD/DVD transports has to do with many other factors - read errors from the CD/DVD transport is way down on that list.

Manek,
I had a look at the sites for DAC and jitter box that you are referring to, and found it most interesting. What kind of differences do you find using them?
And if I may ask, did you procure them from abroad or is there some way of obtaining them in India?
Purnendu

bombaywalla schrieb:

Guys, if you do a little research on this matter of CD transports or DVD transports making errors whilst reading a disc (be it CD or DVD) you will quickly come to the conclusion that even the cheapest transport rarely makes an error during read. This has also been concluded by many other audio & computer-philes. The sound quality of various CD/DVD transports has to do with many other factors - read errors from the CD/DVD transport is way down on that list.

I agree.. thets what I have understod a well. the problems are more mechanical in nature. sivat was actually trying to make a transport where the lens and the motor are not on the same chassis (like 47 labs). even with cheapo mechanisms they make a huge difference.

I quite Concur with what manek had to say as well...althoug hnot sure as to how easy is is to make it effective.

from my experience, solid damping and vibration control, a really good power supply and a good clock would be the main constituents for a good CDP.

the Teac VRDS versions is perhaps the king of all transports. the Pioneer Stable platter is another really good transport followed by the CDM Pro 2. the others in stock form are not great,but need to be modded to get right.
perhaps the cd12.4 and the DVDROM drive are the most used mechanisms otherwise used even for dedicated transports

Purnendu

Let's just say I have the best brother in the world ! :-)

Now, the dac spitfire on its own is good. With the bravo which serves as a media convertor apart from jitter reduction, there is a cleanup across the frequency range.
And one can change the opamps in the dac to ur liking, so tweakable.

As an entry level set I couldn't be happier. I use it with my diy headphone amp and I am happy !

Manek

Arj schrieb:

the Teac VRDS versions is perhaps the king of all transports. the Pioneer Stable platter is another really good transport followed by the CDM Pro 2. the others in stock form are not great,but need to be modded to get right. perhaps the cd12.4 and the DVDROM drive are the most used mechanisms otherwise used even for dedicated transports

Arj, you forgot to mention about the two biggies CEC and 47 Labs.

Hey Abhi, Actually from what i understand, Both use a rather cheap Sanyo transport which is heavily modded in their implementations. which kind of leans towards what manek was saying

Guys

Anyone tried to mount a cdp/dvp on a sandbox just like turntables ?

Always wondered what effect that would bring ?

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Guys Anyone tried to mount a cdp/dvp on a sandbox just like turntables ? Always wondered what effect that would bring ? Manek

I did, Manek. My old Philips DVP. Didn't really do wonders for the sound. The two thick books ober the DVP though made a difference.

Actually the dvd plyer feature tweek that worked well was the audio drc setting in the dvd players. Switch it to off for better dynamics. I have see a few players that come with this switch turned on by default. My pioneer and sony did.


Manek

Hi Manek,

What is drc ?

Can you please elaborate ?

Dynamic range compression

Manek

There is a Musiland DAC available in India through the net for a very reasonable price.Any one heard it? Affordable Audio gives an ostensibly favourable review, but if you read between the lines its quite non-commital.