marantz vs nad cd players budget range

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Steve, Before you call the electrician to provide a ground wire on the wall sockets, check if your Equipment (male ) Plugs are connected to the Chasis of their respective equipment. Often, Hi Fi Equipment runs a 2 wire Electrical connection. A 3 pin Plug may have the Earth pin not connected at all.... Check with Viren, since your amp is the only thing that currently runs off the mains.. In such cases, save your money and dont call the electrician. ;)

Save money! There is the risk of a very serious electrical shock in case the ground is not working. Irrespective of whether it reduces the hum or not, do ensure that all the electrical sockets are grounded.

BTW, I have noticed noise in systems whenever the signal does not come through the interconnect correctly. A horrible problem when using any computer mini plug. They are very prone to noise. RCAs are much more reliable.

A layman's thinking: If you guys are going over to Stevie's place, why not just take an amp and interconnects along and see if the change solves the problem?

Hi Steve,

The Lyrita valve amp does require a proper earth/ground connection to the mains. The back connector plate is at ground. The power transformer has an electrostatic shield, as used in an isolation transformer, that has to see ground.

The amp obviously will work without the ground connection - but if you want to screen off noise from the mains, do get the ground in your outlets hooked up.

Besides, it is a human safety hazard not to have a proper ground.

Viren.

viren schrieb:

Hi Steve, The Lyrita valve amp does require a proper earth/ground connection to the mains. The back connector plate is at ground. The power transformer has an electrostatic shield, as used in an isolation transformer, that has to see ground. The amp obviously will work without the ground connection - but if you want to screen off noise from the mains, do get the ground in your outlets hooked up. Besides, it is a human safety hazard not to have a proper ground. Viren.

How come most amps come without a ground connection? In my experience, they have just 2-pin plugs. I wonder how mains noise is kept out in such cases. Simple things like putting on or off switches in the house are often audible.

Neutral schrieb:

A layman's thinking: If you guys are going over to Stevie's place, why not just take an amp and interconnects along and see if the change solves the problem?

i wouldn't want anyone's amp to get fried. i've been told valves can handle the fluctuations easily hence i'm running my system without any worries.

but yes neutral the problem wasn't there at other places with my amp, so the only thing left is shielded interconnects and grounding.

and when the isolation transformer comes, i'm ready to rock n roll cos my project rm 9 just landed today with a tube box. its got a moving coil and the sound just eats any cd player for a midnight snack. i've got some old lps at home. will be getting em mid march.

parents are amused

stevieboy schrieb:

Neutral schrieb: A layman's thinking: If you guys are going over to Stevie's place, why not just take an amp and interconnects along and see if the change solves the problem? i wouldn't want anyone's amp to get fried. i've been told valves can handle the fluctuations easily hence i'm running my system without any worries. but yes neutral the problem wasn't there at other places with my amp, so the only thing left is shielded interconnects and grounding. and when the isolation transformer comes, i'm ready to rock n roll cos my project rm 9 just landed today with a tube box. its got a moving coil and the sound just eats any cd player for a midnight snack. i've got some old lps at home. will be getting em mid march. parents are amused :D

Project TT - Single driver speaker – Tube amp

And the guys in my office think I am getting old They think I am some anti-convergence or something like that. And I have only one tube preamp and I don’t listen to LPs.
I think I should get some of my techno-geeks to your home

Steve,
Looks like you got your turntable going after all. Good for you!

Neutral,
Most of the current budget amps have a plastic chassis now - what they call double-insulated. Or else, the mains transformer is on plastic mounts. So, no electrical leakage can occur to the chassis, and to humans. So a 2-pin mains plug suffices.

In my opinion, that is just a penny-pinching manouver. In good design, the circuit ground has to be connected to power ground at one point, preferably at the chassis. And should establish a reference ground for the whole system. No wonder there are compatibility and hum problems when connecting different equipment.

Viren.

viren schrieb:

Steve, Looks like you got your turntable going after all. Good for you!

not yet skipping and distortion happening. will probably take it to prithvi to see if the needle is damaged or if its a levelling issue. speaking to mr sushil also about it but then he's way over there and the dang turntable is way over here. gut feel is if its not a levelling issue/ clean LP issue, then the needle has gone. funny part is some tracks play ok few seconds then skip, few seconds play then skip. and when its playing its very distorted in many places. dont think LPs are issue cos they played at home.

any ideas anyone? seems like life is swapping one problem for another right now

Steve, did you set up the tonearm yourself? Check to see if the downforce and the anti-skate is set correctly.

Is this happening with every record? This could happen even when the record is warped or otherwise damaged.

Also check if the stylus is tracking in the right angle. Keep your eye at the platter level and see, the stylus should be perpendicular to the disk.

Steve,
First of all let me congratulate on your purchase of RPM9 TT. Regrading your problem of mistracking, if the disc is a good one, it looks like you have not set the down force and antiskating force correctly.

BTW which cartridge are you using ?

Regards
Anil

hi guys, have set the downforce and antiskating as per the guidelines. experimented a little here and there too as recommended. no change. its something more than that. am just hoping its not the needle. problem is i can't see the pointy part that goes into the groove. dont know if its really small in the cartridge (blue point special) or if its been knocked off somehow. with my turntable at home and a regular cartridge i can clearly see the stylus like an inverted narrow pyramid waiting to drop into the groove of the LP.

Okay, coming from experience, there is one step that is not clearly mentioned in the manual and can potentially be missed while setting up the tonearm...

1. You balance the tonearm between the rest and the platter by moving the downforce weight.
2. Once the tonearm is balanced, You hold the weight and rotate the smaller marker to set it to zero
3. You PUSH the downforce weight in so it settles in the groove
4. You set the downforce, typically between the 15-20 mark on the downforce weight.
5. You loop in the antiskate weight.

I'm just guessing that you may have missed out step 3 as it is not clearly mentioned in the manual (at least in the debut III its not). A couple of other folks I know who set up their Projects had missed it too.

ah that was certainly not mentioned! once the arm balances out i just rotated the scale and set the downforce weight. i was wondering how it worked since there are three stubs on the underside of the armstub where the downforce weight goes on. so i basically push the weight inwards till it settles into the nearest groove and then go on? how will i know when to stop pushing it in?

Just push it in till you feel it gently settling into the groove...

Steve and Soulforged,

The step 3 mentioned is for fixing the calibrated dial to Zero position after balancing the arm. In RPM 9 the dial is not locked by pushing it in, the dial is somewhat tight to move freely.

The counter weight screws in and out on the three spring loaded studs. You have to unscrew the counter weight so that the arm balances and stays at horizontal position. Rotate the dial so that the Zero coincided with the antiskate stud(your reference mark). Then screw in the weight (never push it in, the scale is calibrated only when it is moved along it thread) till about 20 is against the reference mark.

Then put the antiskate weight to middle notch of the stud.

BPS cartridge stylus is visible, thin and long. Be sure to inspect with a good flash light, new ones are almost tranparent and you may find it hard to see in low light

Warning BE VERY CAREFULL WITH BPS ON RPM 9, open constructed cartridge on a skeleton turntable with the arm poking out is ....you know Hope you have got some sort of cover for it.

I have used this combination, very good VFM and hope pretty soon you will be enjoying good vinyl sound.

Regards

Anil

hmmm...I was coming from the Debut III PoV...

Steve bro, do not push the weight in, instead, make sure its screwed on properly...and also check the VTA once...

thanks a ton guys. will check with flashlight ani. but i don't think there's anything thin and long protruding from the end of the needle the needle comes down like a slide and towards the tip there's a portion of it that's somewhat horizontal just like the bottom of a slide. this part bulges slightly, compared to the tubular needle/cantilever. nothing hanging down from the underside. anyway have decided to just screw the whole thing. i'm getting mad like a raging bull! and way too frustrated grrrrrr. just packing it back up.

i'll just get the transformer, get a stand for the turntable and for the amp set everything else up. then prithvi will come over to install it but he's free only after 19th march. if the cart is gone, sushil has generously offered to replace it or take the table back. till then i'll get my LP cleaning gear in place.

by the way anyone know where to get isopropyl achohol in bangalore? and dont say your nearest chemist i've been trawling chemists last evening till 10. nothing! help! i'm gonna ask murthy in the evening, but if anyone knows any specific shop please let me know. thanks!!!

soulforged i dont want to get into the vta settings or azimut. not experienced in that and a mc is supposed to be more sensitive than a mm. so am keeping my hands off but i think that's what has come loose from what sushil set it cos some LPs are playing and not skipping but sound is distorted. closest description i can give is it sounds like how a cassette would sound if the head was dirty and the cassette mouldy. one can still hear the sound but there's also screeches and distortion sounds. to describe one track in more detail. deep purple live in london. the intro is the vocalist introducing everyone and the guitarist plays a few intro notes when introduced. all this i can hear. but when the song starts, its distorted. also there's a lot of crackling and noise. so have got one LP cleaned from prithvi to see.

tell me something guys, if the needle is gone would there be any sound at all? can the needle be damaged and still play certain tracks or would it uniformly play badly or not play at all?

Hi Steve,
Dont panic, I have been through something exactly like what you are going through. Its the needle is my guess. You should be able to see the diamond clearly. A stylus even without a stone or with a badly chopped one will produce some kind of sound, awful sound ofcourse, but it will. In fact this happened to me twice, first with my denon after five years of use, and then with my shure straight out of the box. Glad to say the shure Delhi office changed the cart no questions asked. Keep the RM 9 table, its a fine table. Buy a cheaper cart and run it. Will be miles better than the Debut.
Purnendu

Steveboy,

What you called needle is the Al cantiliver, at its end where you see the flattened portion holds the eliptical diamond stylus, the stylus is pushed from the top and a blob of glue placed o top.

From your description is looks like there is no stylus, but you said you could hear distorted sound on some LP's. If there is no stylus you cannot hear anything. If the stylus is worn out or chipped you will hear distorted sound.

Another point to be checked is cantilever damage, like I said earlier the cantilever of BPS hangs out and if you are not careful it can get damaged.

To get rough idea of VTA check if the arm is parallel to disc while playing, for BPS I have found that the arm slightly down at its bearing end to sound better. If the arm is set high at the bearing end you can hear all kinds of screchy sounds and LP's can get damaged too.

Regards

Anil

thanks purnendu, am sure keeping the table. max will get the cart replaced if needs be. i was in a pretty bad shape for last couple of days though now is the calm part. what will happen will happen hehe the sound was brilliantly magical when i heard it. had me decided in a minute flat. and i had gone to buy the debut. guess will have to wait a while longer to enjoy it.

yesterday sushil suggested cleaning the stylus with a brush and isopropyl alchohol back to front motion gently. as soon as i get that i'll try it.

soulforged how do you clean your LPs?

ani schrieb:

Steveboy, What you called needle is the Al cantiliver, at its end where you see the flattened portion holds the eliptical diamond stylus, the stylus is pushed from the top and a blob of glue placed o top. From your description is looks like there is no stylus, but you said you could hear distorted sound on some LP's. If there is no stylus you cannot hear anything. If the stylus is worn out or chipped you will hear distorted sound. Another point to be checked is cantilever damage, like I said earlier the cantilever of BPS hangs out and if you are not careful it can get damaged. To get rough idea of VTA check if the arm is parallel to disc while playing, for BPS I have found that the arm slightly down at its bearing end to sound better. If the arm is set high at the bearing end you can hear all kinds of screchy sounds and LP's can get damaged too. Regards Anil

the arm is parallel when on the rest positioned above the LP. when i lower the arm rest lever the stylus falls gently onto the LP but the arm gets lowered. ie higher at its rear end. not that much but its still higher cos i can see the arm gettin lowered at the front end. its more horizontal when its at rest above the LP.

the cantilever is intact. pointing straight. no damage visible. a small blob i can see at the botton of the end of the cantilever. but no inverted pyramid shaped coming down from that. unless the blob contains the diamond and is of a different type from the inverted pyramid type.

thanks!

Steve,
From what you said about the blob at the cantilever end it looks like your stylus is completly covered with dirt picked up from the dirty LP's

BPS stylus is very thin and do go deep into the groove, you might have never played this disc using a similar level of cartridge. Due to the same reason of thin stylus a properly cleaned LP will sound thousand times better on a high end player.

VTA you have to check it will sound better with the arm sloping down at the bearing end,

If you need more infor feel fre to PM me

Regards

Anil

It may be that you need to level the arm more accurately. Take a scale and see that the arm is as high from the surface of the record near the cartridge end as well as towards the fulcrum end. Right now you have it bending downwards as it were. While some people like to have it this way, it has a distinct effect on the sound I gather. My own tonearm is perfectly level and I have no problems with tracking. The inner grooves do get muddy, but its not anything like what you are saying. Try levelling it correctly and see what happens. Did you check the azimuth. The needle (cantilever - sorry) should fall straight. This can be done with a small mirror. The image and the needle should be in a straight line. If the sound does not come through correctly after all, then it just might be that the diamond stylus has been damaged. This can happen easily. Ani says that if there is no stylus there will be no sound. He probably is right, but if my memory serves me, then even a stoneless cantilever is enough to produce some kind of screeching music if its put on the record.
Purnendu

ani schrieb:

Steve, From what you said about the blob at the cantilever end it looks like your stylus is completly covered with dirt picked up from the dirty LP's

hi ani,

the blob is a metal blob. very very small but 'blob' is the best way to describe it. elleptical blob no visible dirt but the cleaning will tell.

purnendu schrieb:

It may be that you need to level the arm more accurately. Take a scale and see that the arm is as high from the surface of the record near the cartridge end as well as towards the fulcrum end. He probably is right, but if my memory serves me, then even a stoneless cantilever is enough to produce some kind of screeching music if its put on the record. Purnendu

thanks purnendu,
will check tonight with a scale/ tape measure. however am not touching anything. too scared to screw something up permanently. regarding the stonless cantilever, some LPs, some tracks are clearer than others. the voice intro like i said was pretty clear. or maybe the voice groove is more accessible and heavier parts of the track are deeper grooves so voice is more accessible...?

soulforged how do you clean your LPs?

I brew the following concoction for cleaning my LPs -

80% Distilled Water
20% Isopropyl Alcohol
1 drop of Kodak Photoflo

This recipe was given to my by Screamgigi and Bombaywalla. For really dirty records, you can increase the proportion of isopropyl alcohol. Shake the mix well before you use it.

Just be sure that you get pure alcohol. Sometimes, the rubbing alcohol you get from the chemist may be mixed with some other stuff that may leave sonic residue. I asked my doctor cousin to get the alcohol for me.

For Kodak Photoflo, ask some photographer/developer for it. Only a few ml's should last you a long time. You can also use Triton X-100 instead.

Place your LP on some kitchen towels or a clean hosiery type cloth (a baniyan for example) and spray the liquid on it. Clean it with a wet cleaning brush using circular motion along the grooves in both the directions. I use the Mobile Fidelity wet/dry brush, you can also use a piece of velvet cloth as well. (if you are planning to get some velvet, please get some for me too ). Finally, rinse the LP thoroughly with distilled water and let it dry out before playing. If you have a vacuum cleaner, vac the LPs once before drying to remove all the gunky keechad

If you have some very special LPs, I suggest you get them cleaned by Prithvi. A thorough machine cleaning would definitely do a better job than a manual scrub.

Also, use inner sleeves to store the records in. Prithvi has some really good MoFi inners going for about Rs.25 apiece.

Purnendu, Ani and other vinyl gurus here may have their own technique for cleaning the records. It would be great if they can teach us their tricks...

Vinyl Guru is it?
To begin with why not just use distilled water. Most dust goes away easily. The only stains that dont go are tea or coffee stains that were not carefully washed
Purnendu

purnendu schrieb:

Vinyl Guru is it? To begin with why not just use distilled water. Most dust goes away easily.

Are you not??? You are one person I know on this forum who is totally into vinyl

Cleaning with just distilled water is good for well-maintained and relatively cleaner records. Most of my LPs were gathering dust for a long long time and were in real bad shape (Prithvi can vouch for that ;)) so needed some alcohol and a bit of surfactant to scrub them clean.

stevieboy schrieb:

thanks a ton guys. will check with flashlight ani. but i don't think there's anything thin and long protruding from the end of the needle the needle comes down like a slide and towards the tip there's a portion of it that's somewhat horizontal just like the bottom of a slide. this part bulges slightly, compared to the tubular needle/cantilever. nothing hanging down from the underside. anyway have decided to just screw the whole thing. i'm getting mad like a raging bull! and way too frustrated grrrrrr. just packing it back up. i'll just get the transformer, get a stand for the turntable and for the amp set everything else up. then prithvi will come over to install it but he's free only after 19th march. if the cart is gone, sushil has generously offered to replace it or take the table back. till then i'll get my LP cleaning gear in place. by the way anyone know where to get isopropyl achohol in bangalore? and dont say your nearest chemist i've been trawling chemists last evening till 10. nothing! help! i'm gonna ask murthy in the evening, but if anyone knows any specific shop please let me know. thanks!!! soulforged i dont want to get into the vta settings or azimut. not experienced in that and a mc is supposed to be more sensitive than a mm. so am keeping my hands off but i think that's what has come loose from what sushil set it cos some LPs are playing and not skipping but sound is distorted. closest description i can give is it sounds like how a cassette would sound if the head was dirty and the cassette mouldy. one can still hear the sound but there's also screeches and distortion sounds. to describe one track in more detail. deep purple live in london. the intro is the vocalist introducing everyone and the guitarist plays a few intro notes when introduced. all this i can hear. but when the song starts, its distorted. also there's a lot of crackling and noise. so have got one LP cleaned from prithvi to see. tell me something guys, if the needle is gone would there be any sound at all? can the needle be damaged and still play certain tracks or would it uniformly play badly or not play at all?

Stevie yaar,
Do you have a digital camera? A pic is worth a thousand words! It would all us future LP fanatics if we get to see an actual cartridge. It would also help the gurus to accurately diagnose the problem, instead of guessing based on your descriptions.

I want to buy a DJ cartridge, but after your experience, I am getting scared of plunging into vinyl

no digi cam unfortunately. take the plunge. its worth it. initial probs setting up but once done thats it. the sound is quite magical. at least for me. i guess carts are like lasers in cds. they are also prone to giving way and needing replacement.

by the way check out www.needledoctor.com tons of carts there enough to make one drool

Stevie you can go to a decent chemist and ask for E-Merck rubbing alcohol. Its the purest isopropyl alcohol u'll get. Costs around 150 bux for a 500ml bottle. If you say isopropyl alcohol, they'll give you blank stares :). Thats the purest I'm aware of and I use it for cleaning CPUs/GPUs and lapped heatsinks before applying arctic silver :D.

god bless you reign! all the buggers were asking wat brand name saar? and giving me blank looks. am getting some from murthy. so that's sorted out. lemme try at a chemist too.

one guy even told me no alcoholic products here sir

an update. cleaned the stylus with isopropyl yesterday. sound cleared up a bit but there's still a constant loud screeching/ scratching sound along with the music. turned the volume off, could hear a bad scratching sound as the stylus tracked the grooves. have packed it up now in the box.

Ah...so you finally managed to get some alcohol

From where did u get it? Murthy?

Steve,
Could you see the stylus after cleaning ? If seen was it clean? The blob you mentioned about was it dirt ?


Final question Was there anything (dirt or Vinyl) stuck on the stylus after you played with screeching sounds?

Regards

Anil

nopes ani. still couldnt see anything pointy coming down. the blob is elleptical and is the metal part of the end of the cantilever. not a blob of dirt. no dirt while screeching sound was happening. i know cos i cleant first time and a little black dirt appeared. next time after screeching i cleaned to check again, no dirt came off.

soulforged i got an isopropyl swab. kinda like the wet tissues they give you on airplanes. small ones for 1.50 bucks. and no it does not leave lint like residue in case you're wondering :)did not 'brush' it. just kinda held it lightly and dirt came away on it. alcohol will get on monday.

Steve, better to take it to a technician & get it fixed if it's minor problem or send it back & get it fixed.

hi als,

just doing what sushil recommended ie cleaning the stylus. will be calling him to tell him the results. after that he'll suggest a course of action. for now its back to the good ole discman! and work

Bad luck Steve, I wished to listened to vinyls thru' Viren's setup

Steve,

One last question, Have you set the gain of the preamp right?

It should be put in MOVING MAGNET (MM) position. BPS is a Hi Output moving coil cartridge.

Regards

Anil

ani i thought the setting should be mc? sushil also said check and see if its mc. though i did try the mm setting also before the cleaning. absolutely no difference. the scratching noise the stylus made on the LP was pretty loud and bad. i think that was getting magnified and amplified. i havent heard too many turntables but i dont think a stylus makes that kind of sound tracking the groove. think of a nail on a blackboard? thats the kind of nerves on edge scary sound it makes. its not the kind of distortion that wrong amplification brings. lemme try and make it clearer. i can hear the music. but there's this screeching/scratching veil along with the music. some tracks the music is clearer some its outright unlistenable. skipping is not so big a problem now. still skips but not that often.

from what i've read on the internet a screeching noise is a symptom of the arm height not being adjusted but sushil is positive that after he set it there's no way it can change cos those are allen screws.

also one place i read says if the stylus is chipped/damaged, it will still play music but distorted. currently this is the only explanation that fits what i'm hearing.

ALS schrieb:

Bad luck Steve, I wished to listened to vinyls thru' Viren's setup

its actually a blessing. cos i'll be putting in some room treatment after this so you can drop in later anytime and listen to vinyl with room treatment. and there will be the isolation transformer too!

The carbon fibre tone arm do give out loud noise, in fact you can listen to music

Chipped stylus is rare nowadays, the stylus is too small to get chipped off.

Without seeing the player setting no one can help you with the overhang, VTA and Azimuth. Did you get the paper protractor along with the player? if so you can check the overhang with it. VTA the arm should be sloping down to the bearing end.