Power Supplies

A separate line with a separate breaker system I hope. Use the good stuff like merlin gerin or schneider

I always use finolex cabling in my home and have done the same for my system.

Good brass power sockets. Even anchor roma works well. Legrand has some high current 25 amp 3 pin sockets that are really good, very tight grip.

4sqmm intenal wiring.

Manek

HI,

It would help if you can twist the phase and neutral wires that feed your dedicated socket from the main distribution board. This helps in reducing induced symetrical noise pick up by the line, major sources for such noise are home appliances like vacuum cleaner, mixer etc.

Route the dedicated line as far away from exixting lines, this further reduces induction from other power lines.

If possible get a seperate earth line from a dedicated earth pit for audio. It is preferable to have this pit at least 3m away from general earth pits.

Pay special attention to terminations, general electricians are very careless when stripping wires and damages the conductors. Use of copper ferrules helps in prevention of induvidual strands from being cut when the screws are tightened.

I have found that the above make noticable changes in audio. Wishing you happy listening

Anil

When I had my audio room built, I had a separate earth ground dug up for that room , separate line from the meter and circuit breakers.
I am with Manek on the Finolex cables. They work great.
I had dedicated tubing laid inside the walls to route interconnects and speaker wires (surround, fronts and rear channels) and also internal tubing for the projector in the ceiling. It doesn't cost too much extra to get something like this done..just a little bit of planning.

I would still want a power conditioner in the room. What i heard at Prithvi's place, the power conditioner by Murthy was like a memory burn ..believe I was with Abhi Pani when Prithvi demoed the power conditioner to us.

Thanks,
All very do-able. Have taken a printout.Shall begin with the finolex.
Purnendu

I'm sorry to say that I have a little different view of the matter merely because the listening room is in India. The suggestions made by the above respected audiophiles are very applicable but, IMHO, their effect is compromised by the quality of the AC in India. IOW, despite following their suggestions to the letter, you will need a very good, large capacity AC regenerator power supply to get the best out of your 2-ch & to prevent it from frying during AC glitches & brown-outs.
My brother has struggled with this over the many years that I have personally witnessed his progression as an audiophile & the AC regenerator has been a boon in his system.
Audiophiles in BOM seem to be the best off & I can see where they are coming from. If you are in BOM, your need for a AC regenerative power supply is reduced (but not eliminated).
So, make all the changes that everyone has suggested here keeping in mind the overall cost. If some of the suggestions are overly expensive, implement them in a diluted manner with the understanding that you will need to spend more money on a AC regenerative power supply once all your house-wiring, AC receptacles, grounding, etc is complete & that if the power quality is good enough for the AC regenerative power supply then it'll be effective in generating a clean AC for your gear.
Like I said, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

Yup,

BEST has the most stable power supply in all of india. We are blessed. Can't say the same for reliance power in the suburbs. Haven't sampled Tata power distribution yet but Tata supplies a lot to Best.

Is it clean ? No.
Far cleaner than the rest though.

Manek

I agree with B'Walla

In my system the sound after 11:00 pm improves dramatically in soundstage and in dynamics and that has to be due to power supply in bangalore..especiallly with the huge number of new Apts have in increasing the load.

A Regenerator would be the most helpful. APS 1050 is the Ideal one but $$$'s.
i have heard that the APC online UPS is really good ..not as good as the APS but for 30% of the price its great.

Hi,

One can only agree with what B'walla said, power conditions in India is truely Slumdog. If you are going in for regeneration system you can save a lot of trouble and money spend on dedicated wiring. I am lucky to be in a village fed by a 100kva transformer right near my house, with hardly 10 houses connected to it. My other source of power is from a trnasformer that feeds a few industries and the difference between them is as clear as day and night.

Apc would be a good bet, I am told there is another ups company called ablerex. Taiwan stuff but excellent quality.

Haven't tried either but apc would be worth a shot in mumbai.

Arj, apc had a dedicated model for av applications, are you refering to that or the ones we use for our computers ?

Manek

The 'best' I have found so far is PP
PurePower

http://www.element-acoustics.ca/Product/powercon.html

http://www.element-acoustics.ca/Product/Purepower.html

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/aps1050.htm

web site :-

http://www.audiophileaps.com/pdf/Intproducts.pdf

bombaywalla schrieb:

My brother has struggled with this over the many years that I have personally witnessed his progression as an audiophile & the AC regenerator has been a boon in his system.

I think KB is using PP !

It is really very nice indeed.

If I did not have so many of these [ http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rtp/rtp_01.html ] I would have purchased a PP - 2000.

Manek schrieb:

Arj, apc had a dedicated model for av applications, are you refering to that or the ones we use for our computers ? Manek

hey manek. it is in the Smart UPS range which is actually an Online UPS ie it conditions power online using the battery backup and gives a Sine Wave output.
I think it is this.. http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=165
The earlier part numbers were different. Siva had pointed it out to me once. YOu could chek with the APC agent on which online UPS does power conditioning into a pure sinewave.

I believe a 1.5KVA should be around 20K including a 15 min battery backup..

Hi and Thaks for all the suggestions.
So it seems that after getting a direct line to the system, and a ground earth from the plug point, the next step shold be an AC regenerator. Are these things available on a modest budget and are there Indian ones available
By the way Jaipur voltahe isnt all that bad.
Purnendu

Smart ups is what one uses for computers. Have many in the office.

Any online ups would do what you are saying, but apc maybe using better output stage.

Manek

Could be..only thing is you need to make sure if it is a pure sine wave or a near sine wave (usually a chopped triangle)and uses the battery to condition the input even when there is no current..

Yes that's one of the things online ups do, condition power via batteries, and their output is pretty much a near sine wave. Btw, nowhere do apc mention it is a online ups in the article.

To know if its a near perfect sinewave, we have to connect to a scope.

Manek

Manek from what i know one of the model of APC is the pure Sine wave. the Near sinewave is not really good as it only approximates a sinewave..not audiophile grade

Yes they do have line called smart ups online. I am hoping that's the one with the good sine wave. Need to investigate more.

Btw one needs to check out emerson, another biggie.

Aplab based out of thane are pretty known for their power supplies and ups for hospital icu's and operation theaters....I know breach candy hospital in mumbai has a lot of aplab. I am wondering if that is also a contender ?

Manek

Good thread with a lot of participation going on here

My few cents ( and Anti-Views ? ) :

1. I agree with Bombaywalla and Bhagwan69... an AC Regenerator or a PURE SINE WAVE UPS is almost essential for most places outside Mumbai. A stepped Sine wave or Quassi Sine wave is WORSE than the electric supply that you receive from the power company.

The product recommended by Bhagwan69 is superb, but probably beyond your current budget ? ( Rs 1 Lakh+ depending on the capacity. Yes, available from official dealer in New Delhi )

2. It is ESSENTIAL that you use ONLY a Sine wave UPS. The regular computer USP could overheat and DESTROY your stereo equipment.

The advice here is: Do NOT connect a UPS to your stereo unless you are ABSOLUTELY SURE its sine wave. When In Doubt - Leave It Out !

3. If you are laying separate AC lines for your stereo :

a. I would recommend TWO Separate lines from your Main distributor. Use one for your CD Player and the other for your amplifier. It has improved sound in my set up...

b. Do NOT use a Circuit breaker IN either of these 2 lines. They are NON LINEAR and the conductive link's resistance increases as the current drawn rises... the worst that you can do .... IMHO.

c. Do NOT connect any computer or Air Con or CFLs to the 2 audio spurs that you use.

d. If you are wondering iF all this is worth it, try a nice Power Cord connected to your CD player. If there is no difference to the sound, you probably wont hear a diff with the separate audio spurs either .... ( I know this will be refuted by those who do not believe in Power cables )

And I have seen how a square wave or quasi sine can waste a system....

Ampnut is right. Pls confirm first.

Manek

well the one I am talking of is used by Siva on his system..so i really would not doubt that !

So I assume Siva has checked the output thoroughly. Yes that definately holds weight.

Siva,

Could you give us the exact model number ?

Manek

SURT2000UXI

I use an APC 1500VA Smart UPS. I know for sure its a pure sine wave and having connected my setup through it, the audio quality improves dramatically. Blacker backgrounds with a lower noise floor, faster transients, better bass - the improvement is all round. abhi.pani has heard the same at my place.

A good UPS is really worth it. However please make sure its a pure sinewave UPS. The best option would be an isolation transformer followed by a double conversion UPS like the APC Smart series. Avoid the cheapo backups like plague.

APC Calls most of thier UPS as smart UPS and not all of it is of similar type. So please go by the model numbers.

Has anyone checked the output of the sine wave ups on a scope ?

Siva ?

Manek

Secondly

Wouldn't true online ups offer the isolation one needs ? Why use another isolation transformer ? Won't that be too many tranbsformers in the chain ?

Manek

Siva,

Do you mind telling us how much that piece costs with batteries of 15 mins backup ?

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Secondly Wouldn't true online ups offer the isolation one needs ? Why use another isolation transformer ? Won't that be too many tranbsformers in the chain ? Manek

manek, I dont think the UPS has a transformer..unless you meant that it anyway isolates from the power supply ?

Yes that's what I meant arj, so if the true online ups is isolating the load from the mains ac, would one really need a separate isolation transformer before the ups ?
The spec sheet of the apc has a large ac mains voltage operation range of 160v to 280v as well hence I assume one box would serve many purposes.


Manek

True. I would also guess the same same. Hey ROC was there a reason you suggested this ?

Also what is the Battery backup capacity you are using with yours. Also I see that the APCs power sockets are not for regular power chords...did you re terminate your power chord ?

Arj schrieb:

True. I would also guess the same same. Hey ROC was there a reason you suggested this ? Also what is the Battery backup capacity you are using with yours. Also I see that the APCs power sockets are not for regular power chords...did you re terminate your power chord ?

I have a power distribution unit that plugs into the back of the UPS. From there, its normal plugs.

I'm not sure why but I was suggested an isolation transformer by the APC guy and also one of my more experienced Audiophile friends here.

I've never tested the battery backup but I guess it should do an hour pretty easy since it takes my SLI'ed computer system with a quad core and 6 hard drives for 20 mins without much trouble.

2KV with 15 will cost around Rs.42k/- ...that was two years ago.

reignofchaos schrieb:

I'm not sure why but I was suggested an isolation transformer by the APC guy and also one of my more experienced Audiophile friends here.

hi reign,

was recommended to me too by viren and mr murthy as its better than a servo stabilizer. one question how does the apc work? does it provide a sine wave even when the power from the main outlet is on or sine wave only when power goes off and the apc kicks into action?

thanks

Online ups would typically do two conversions, ac to dc and charge the batteries, the battery output dc to ac which would be a sine wave output.

The sine wave output would be irrespective of mains on or off.

Manek

stevieboy schrieb:

reignofchaos schrieb: I'm not sure why but I was suggested an isolation transformer by the APC guy and also one of my more experienced Audiophile friends here. hi reign, was recommended to me too by viren and mr murthy as its better than a servo stabilizer. one question how does the apc work? does it provide a sine wave even when the power from the main outlet is on or sine wave only when power goes off and the apc kicks into action? thanks

There are two versions - line interactive and online. The online ones are always off battery. The line interactives run off battery when needed. Depends upon your budget :).

thanks guys will look out for the online one. will have to decide between that and an isolation transformer. was aiming for an ac regenerator though...

The online ups is doing the job of regenerating ac from dc.

Manek

hi manek,

but will it be the same as a dedicated ac regenerator like ps audio or pure power ones?

regards

If hey both give clean sine waves output, are good with generating the current needed, how does it matter ?

How do ps audio or pure power generate ac ? Curious.

Manek

PS audio is an amplifier based regenerator ie it behaves as a power amplifier and amplifies a sine wave to the required voltage. Purepower regenerates from DC using an inbuilt battery to augment and create a pure sinewave.

the latter is more efficint..PS audio wastes close to 50% of power.


APC is also very similiar to Purepower..although apparently i very loud. but if you can keep it in a different room maybe it will work well

Arj schrieb:

PS audio is an amplifier based regenerator ie it behaves as a power amplifier and amplifies a sine wave to the required voltage. Purepower regenerates from DC using an inbuilt battery to augment and create a pure sinewave. the latter is more efficint..PS audio wastes close to 50% of power. APC is also very similiar to Purepower..although apparently i very loud. but if you can keep it in a different room maybe it will work well :)

The online version is super loud. The line interactive isn't since the fan comes on only when on battery. I tried both at my place and there wasn't a noticeably difference or maybe my equipment isn't resolving enough. So I got the line interactive. Both sounded significantly better than direct wall power. YMMV.