used gear?

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tidelpower
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#1 erstellt: 27. Apr 2005, 13:20

After seeing a lot of esoteric discussion points lately -here's something much more mundane -
The possibility of buying used gear. I undestand that India does not compete at all with the developed world in the used market for hi-fi. But, the fact remains that they are available - through the local news paper, electronics repair shops, online, etc.
During the last one month, I have come across several pieces
1. Marantz PM65,
2. Denon PMA 380
3. Audiolab A8000 (gone now, i guess)
4. NAD 306
5. A HK model - but that didnt sound good.
even rarer stuff like a musical fidelity A1, Bell (german make) power amplifier, a phase linear quadrophonic amp!! can be found.
This brings me to my question:
How much life would you attribute to such an amplifier. These are usually discards from abroad / domestic market as the owner has upgraded. Most of the models I listed are around 7+ years old.
Am just trying to save a bit on the amp so that i can get better speakers!

thanks in advance.

tidelpower
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#2 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 10:09

I hope i asked my question clearly

How much life do you guys think can be extracted from such amplifiers. Age ranges from a 4 year used denon to a 10 year old NAD.
Also, does anyone have experience of buying used gear? What are the points to be watched out for ?
Hope to see some responses
thanks

big-ears
Stammgast

#3 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 10:31

How much life to expect from used hifi gear?

Difficult to say. Electronics can last over 15 years, or start giving trouble within months.

Personally, I wouldn't mind buying second hand if the owner was known to me and I knew for a fact that he had used the equipment as caringly as I would. Or from a dealer with a solid reputation for standing by his products.

Also, if you have an electronic bent of mind the risk/reward ratio would obviously be more favourable. Otherwise, IMHO one is better off sticking to new stuff, given the paucity of reputable/qualified service centers locally.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#4 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 11:23

owning some brands here is a crime.....you have to kill yourself when some troubles crop up. of course here dealers stand by you only upto sale and who's sure about the after sales service. When big car showrooms can cheat you in service and bill you for parts not replaced and use inferior non OEM parts ....looking for proper Hifi service is like pissing when there's a strong head wind......

anyways I'm happy....

chhbuurpppppppppp

viv
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#5 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 12:46

perfectly said!
after sales service in our country is pathetic.

jsa_ind
Stammgast

#6 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 16:09

Hi All,

Do you think if a Exchange Program & After Sales Outlet was set up in Bombay & Bangalore, it would it work ?

Like in the West there are agencies that certify a car before giving it a clean chit. The charge is minimum due to the high turn-over....would it work in India ?

I can get a company to fund such an operation if there is a demand. As a matter of fact there was an enquiry from a Brit, mentioning something on the similar lines to me the other day.

All the same the issue of creditability has to be earned (no flicking of parts, exchanging etc..). There shouldn't be too much concern about pricing because this wouldn't be the primary foundation on which the business would be based upon.

The other aspect is an Exchange program with certification would that hold any water ?

Junia.

benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht

#7 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 16:12

i don't think India is ready for such a program.
there are too many dubious charecters who will take advantage and u may never know what might happen.
IMHO of course.
Cheers,
Ben

jsa_ind
Stammgast

#8 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 16:20

Dear Benks,

What do you mean by people taking advantage off the scheme?

Please throw the worst seneario !

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht

#9 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 16:23

u know... people who think smart and replace parts and kind of stuff.
also people who fabricate fake identities...cause u are talking of very high end equipment. there are many 420s aound
u should be insured or have the ability to take in some losses due to unavoidable circumstances even after taking great precautions.
Cheers,
Ben

abhi.pani
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 16:38

I think it will work provided the agency does it well and perfect. I mean, apart from dealing in genuine products he should be able to have contacts with the Commercial audiophiles like Prithvi and Viren who are influential in their areas. He cant sit in one corner of the country and expect the whole country to know him, reach him and also deal with him.

I understand the point about 420s and fakes in our country, but it would be his lookout to avoid dealing with complete strangers (atleast for exchange scheme) and also should be able to verify the quality of the products before the deal.

There are no shortcuts to these.

Jeeves
Stammgast

#11 erstellt: 28. Apr 2005, 19:00

For me there is a personal equation. If I have bought from someone and there is now a trust I would only go to buy/take advise from that person. Well for me Prithvi should start something like that. I think he has created a pan Indian reputation over the last 15 years and he could if he is interested, create a market.

tidelpower
Ist häufiger hier

#12 erstellt: 29. Apr 2005, 06:01

Dear Jsa_Ind.

Sounds great to me! Could you clarify a few points regarding the proposed mechanism.

Am concerned with the first one - an agency certifying/ reselling used gear. So:

1. Does this agency buy used gear, check (if required refurbish? ) and sell? Like the case with a number of companies in the Auto industry. That model is successful in India for mass market products. Maruti True value and Ford assured are good examples. So, perhaps inventory carrying and other such issues become of concern.

2. Does it merely provide a platform for buy and sell of used gear (audiogon? Thats a little different but cant think of a better example

)

In either case, as Jeeves pointed out, trust is an issue, since the agency doesnt have a brand to start of with. A good dealer comes in handy.
Overall, very exciting proposition. Helps bring hi-fi to the reach of many more. And those who are into it already, maybe they can get a second system !!

Exchange doesnt sound too great. Barter is ususally a challenge since the scale to measure the value of goods being exchanged becomes flexible (dependant on user perspective) in such a case. Eg I value a NAD more than a marantz though both may be similarly priced for select models. Also, given the limited market, its likely to be fairly imperfect and thus, frustrating (long wait times, I dont get what i want, etc).

Am assuming that the agency does a good job of checking the used equipment - and thus ensures that people havent changed anything inside before selling their pieces to the agency. My vote is for the first one.

Jeeves
Stammgast

#13 erstellt: 29. Apr 2005, 09:02

Tidelpower to get back to your original question, Viren of Lyrita Audio has a Quad II amp which is 50 yrs old and working beautifully. I have amps 10 and 15 years old no problem. I would think that unless you are really unlucky (I once had a brand new top-of-the-line Nikon pack up on me after shooting just 2 rolls of film and could never be brought back to life!) most modern electronics will last much beyond the average 3rd or 4th 7 year itch!

jsa_ind
Stammgast

#14 erstellt: 29. Apr 2005, 10:57

Dear Tidelpower,

I hope I can clarify matters :

By & large our mindset is geared towards recycling & repairing things rather then trashing them. In the light of this I was wondering if a mechanism like E-bay but with some modifications would work.

Say A wants to sell a piece of equipment, for a very nominal fee he sends this equipment to the Center to get a rating done on his equipment. Should buyer B want to purchase this equipment then he could do so with confidence based on the rating of that piece. That center could act as a platform to facilitate the buying & selling, without actually investing in the equipment.

The same could be done for repairs .....equipment could come in get repaired & be sent with a certificate of authenticity of what was replaced & what was serviced.

Any company could do this provided they don't treat it as a business by itself and are willing to wait until they have earned the reputation & respect of their patrons. If they do treat this as a business entity the whole purpose of low cost & reliable service would be lost......it would just be another commercial venture which I suspect might just fizzle out...though I might be proved wrong.

As to reputation, it just has to be earned...as we all know reputation takes a long time to earn & can be lost in a moment.. Should the company be authorized by the Distributor & Manufacturer to service equipment I am sure that would lend towards the creditability of the company.

To bartering or exchange, there are companies who would be willing to exchange equipment for upgraded equipment of their own. If one were to visit

www.ATI.com you would know what was been referred to

This is a long drawn process....but can be achieved by any company who are inclined towards long term relationships rather then short time gains.......

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

tidelpower
Ist häufiger hier

#15 erstellt: 29. Apr 2005, 12:21

Dear Junia,

Thanks - this does make things very clear. I have some reservations about the success of such an agency. These are:

1. The profit motive remains the single biggest force behind private enterprise. Consider EBay as an example. Their sole motive is profit. Once the platform was suitably established, other than tweaking around it, fundamental changes have not been necessary. The first mover advantage had ensured that it approximates a perfect market. And it is profitable! Hugely so.
I would suggest that such an agency be allowed to make profit for itself. It can only result in better service.

2. The problems of logistics are fairly large in such an endeavour. Once the gear has been checked by the agency, do they get to keep it ? If so, I have to live without that piece for how long? What if I'm trying to finance my next purchase with the proceeds of this one? Aliter, If it comes back post ratings, frauds can have a field day ! But all these are fairly workable. And am sure that an agency with the profit motive would not have issues addressing these.

3. Barter, to me, still is questionable. Companies (including the one you mention) are willing participants for their own products. But a consumer to consumer exchange for different goods. Hard to click.

Lastly, it would be far easier for the agency to charge the customers (both buyers and sellers) and make a name, rather than give services free and build their brand. Its easier to believe people and organizations who value their own services.
Example, if all the above points had been made in exchange of top $$ by a top notch management consultant for your start up agency they would be far more believable than me doling out free advice.

rgds
Vaibhav
ps just my two cents. Maybe i will now

jsa_ind
Stammgast

#16 erstellt: 30. Apr 2005, 04:02

Dear Vaibhav,

Yes profit is the fundamental driving force for every company, but when & how you what to collect the same differs from company to company. Some are the "Wanna make a killing right away types" some are "Need to get rid of inventory and recover monies ASAP" some are volume driven "Just a little over a greater numbers" No one philosophy is the best, they all work but some a little better then others depending on the environment in which the principles are applied...............

Personally I would prefer a "Little over a greater volume" Firstly the buying power of an average Indian (I am Indian too) is relatively lower than that of some other countries, added to that the basic philosophy is to recycle & get the most one could for the maximum amount of time...from refrigerators to music systems to cars....it just runs in our blood. Is it something to look down upon...certainly not...in such a scenario I feel ( I might be wrong) you could create a cult of following if you could provide reliable service at a nominal cost.

Secondly Distributors & Dealers are constantly pressurized to sell....one only has to go back to the place where he/she bought equipment & see how one is driven from pillar to post to get things fixed. The same company/individual who was going all over you to make the purchase now treats you as if you were non existent ! Can you blame them ? Certainly not...their niche was to sell equipment to roll their monies faster.....again I see that as an opportunity by itself. More then a couple of Distributors in audio have welcomed the idea of having a central place to get things fixed.

In lieu of the relatively lower margin, if one were to base a business solely on this criteria, according to me it would fail. I know of more then one company who have changed tracks after finding that fixing of equipment alone wouldn't bring bread on the table. For obvious reasons if you are pressurized for money you are more than likely to cut corners & overcharge...a sure recipe for disaster ! Hence it is imperative to have a main business and slowly built this business up with patience & determination.

Making money may not be the recipe of better service...for me it is attitude, intentions & motives that really determine the success of any venture....money is required but not as a major contributing factor. Let me illustrate, we are on a forum that is free...the knowledge that is gained for free is priceless, us old fogies can vouch what all of members are getting now on a platter, we had to wear our soles thin trying to get the same information, before the advent of the internet ! Is the forum successful ?...offcourse it is....how much did it cost each of us Zilch ! What I am trying to get at it that with monies from other sources, determination, patience & the right attitude one can make this happen......this is my perception....I will stand corrected if anyone else can advise the concepts are wrong at the very foundation.

Let us talk about Exchange...again something with the outside world does not know. Ever wondered why companies want to exchange older products with newer ones....the traditional lines are "Oh they want you to buy more from them, therefore they offer an incentive to exchange the older products"...well that is the official reason, the unofficial reason is companies want to study the life cycle of their components in a real world situation. I personally know companies who would give an arm & leg to get hold of their older models just to see the effect of use & aging on their units. In the US it is a multi million business to turn around old equipment to the manufacturers. Companies glibly put it as exchange programs but the reality is something else. Isn't India a gold mine for such equipment ? I hope I don't get shot again in the head...I am not mentioning names here........

As to logistics I agree that could pose a problem, however over a period of time things could improve. I mean a few key cities could start off and then others could follow....it is the same story of distribution which can be followed. The important thing is to start off and then adapt as time progresses.

Barter I agree may not work, but how about buying & selling after a certificate of authenticity is given by a third party...yes there is the creditability issue of the third party, which over a period of time may become a mute issue.

I agree wholly to your point of charging the buyer & seller...however I feel it should be a nominal amount.

Linux was started free & people valued the product...I am sure someone could emulate the same and make a success of the same, if the basic guidelines are followed.

Boy I am sorry for being so long winded.......hopefully I will improve in the future !

Thanks all the same for your views & observations.

Regards,

Junia.

P.S. Oh everyone will get rewarded for their inputs...in fact some already have been...may not be monetarily but in kind.......that we shall discuss in person Sir, when I come back to India this June.......