Auditioned the Acoustic portratits yesterday..:))

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Beitrag

square_wave
Inventar

#1 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 10:14

Hi Guys,
I listened to the acoustic portrait floorstanding speakers yesterday at siva's place. I went armed to the teeth with the Burmester test cd and some of my fav stuff like Pink floyd, diana krall, coldplay-parachutes, some dave brubeck jazz etc...
He had the plinius amp driving them. The source was a Arcam FMJ series cd player. The pre- was a DIY project under development. I had listened to them at Prithvi's place but I wanted a longer second listen in a different place.
Started with some western classical from the burmester. The speaker's ability to disappear was immediately apparent. The sound was totally free from any box colorations and boom and the music just flowed into the room. This freedom from coloration is not possible without exceptional build quality and damping. I then went on to play "stimela" from the same cd. Very few budget speakers can convey the essence of Hugh Masekela's vocals. The speakers did a very good job. I could almost see him on the stage. Then came the bass test with the "poem of chinese drums".There is subtle difference in the different beats in this track and some of the beats extend very low. The portraits again did a commendable job. I could almost see the skin on the drums. I went on to play some pink floyd with some complex passages. The speaker held it own and never muddled the sound at all. Totally enjoyable. The bass lines never lost track and I found myself singing along...:) Then came the jazz test. Diana krall's vocals was seductive and uncolored. The double bass was in control and musical, never sounding boomy. Totally out of the box performance! The wind instruments and piano with Dave brubeck sounded almost like live. Never shrill. Very clean presentation. I have yet to hear a speaker sounding this good anywhere in this price range. Can it be compared to the Proacstudio-125? Well, the proacs to me are a better speaker. They have mids to die for. It has a signature sound which I find very seductive. But it comes at more than double the price of the acoustic portraits. The only speaker I found that could be compared to the Acoustic portraits are the KEF Q7 priced at around 65k.The KEF Q7 seemed to have a better low extension than the Acoustic portrait but I can't really say unless I play both in the same room with the same electronics.
In my honest opinion acoustic portraits are one of the best speakers out there under 60k.Anybody who has a budget like this should do themselves a favor by auditioning them.

benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht

#2 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 10:50

hey sqwave,
good to see ur reviews on the APs. firms up my desire to build a DIY make using the very same drivers when

(that's right i'm literally down on my knees and praying)i go to the US for my studies. Will however, give them a listen myself.
maybe my comment of th ap reflects ur views that the Proacs vocals were much better and since i heard the AP after the Proacs my bias and criticism was obvious.
however, i dont agree with ur views on the KEF Q7s. i auditioned them for well over an hour and they are simply not worth the price. the bass or as u say the low extension sounded very much artificial and not at alll to my tastes.
but however they were paired with a Denon 2ch amp. actually at that price range u are better of considering the quad 22l(wonderful speakers) and the AP(though they are priced well below the Q7).
reading ur review has made me to firm up and take a ahrd listen of the AP which i will definiteley do and give my opinion(if that's worth anything)

Ben

Manek
Inventar

#3 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 11:39

benks,

everyones opinions matter......thats the reason why this hobby is so interesting and this forum so addictive

benk did point out that the 22L's are also an excellent choice but its younger brother the 21L is quite something as well, probably the best of the quad L range speakers to my ears.

well another local brand/talent taking the fight to the established brands.....

Way to go !

Manek.

square_wave
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 12:01

Hey benks,
When I auditioned the Q7,they had much more lower extension than any floorstander of that size in that price range. This made me wonder if the speaker was sounding right. I then proceeded to check exactly this. Playing a variety of tracks with genuine bass extension. Never did I find the bass to be flabby. In fact I found it very tight and musical with good extension. The "racetrack' LF driver technology has been around for more than 20 years. There must be a good reason for continuing the design even now. I personally know a person (murthy) who is using 19 year old Q series speakers. If you get a chance, try to drop in to his house for a listen. You are in for a shock ! There is not even a hint of muddiness in the bass section. His room is perfect so prepare yourself for the most holographic imaging and realism you have ever heard !

benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht

#5 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 12:52

hey Manek,
IMHO the best of the quad l series has to be the 12L( i have'nt heard the 21L). amazing speaker for its size.though i personally don't like the piano gloss finish the build quality though is top notch.
though the local brands may be churning out good and even some excellent products i only hope their service and RELIABILITY goes beyond those extended by the international brands. that is what in my case makes a wonderful product.one that can take punishment(like my PIC microcontrollers

) and when they seem to go wrong the ssurance that the right person is there to heal my 'baby' back to life. customer care is a very alien thing in this buisness( barring a few), especially in the low end. once the product is installed(yeah right, like as though they do it properly) in ur house u r on ur own(again barring a few good companies).
Hey sq_wave,
i don't know man, i really din't like the sound from those q7s( i din't like that driver array tweeter either).
he later played the XQ5, it was simply divine(the highs ) but not worth the 1.67 lac price tag, especially after i heard those Proacs.
would love to listen to Murthy's sytema nd am eager to try out his jumpers. but tomorrow i will definiteley be going to total sound and audition those diamond 9s.(BTW if u must know that total sound guy has not yet given me my bill, can u believe that. i mean he is a nice chap but come on the bill is suppposed to be my one year warranty and half of it is already gone and i still don't have proof for it. i ordered them in august and got them only in sep as my dad wanted the maple model and they did'nt have it in stock. had to wait well over a month for it)
Ben

square_wave
Inventar

#6 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 13:06

Hey,
Get your documents in order man....
The Q7 is a love or hate it speaker. I actually like the mid/tweeter placement. It makes the sound more coherent and spacious ! Well, to each, his own !

benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht

#7 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 13:08

square_wave schrieb:

I actually like the mid/tweeter placement. It makes the sound more coherent and spacious

well, i felt that there was no seperation between the mids and the highs. felt more like the cheap coaxial speaker that they sell on National market

Well, to each, his own !

Amen to that!!!
Something we both can agree on.

Ben

[Beitrag von benkenobi am 04. Mrz 2005, 13:11 bearbeitet]

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#8 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 13:22

Hi guys.opinions vary and tastes as well.......but don't tell me the spaciousness of the speaker sound depends from person to person...it is as it is.and depends on how you .look at it.........

abhi.pani
Inventar

#9 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 14:10

At last someone is here in the forum to comment on the Acoustics Portrait....

Hey man I was waiting since long for someone to go and see them. Anyway squarewave, you are lucky to audition them with the Plinius amp, I got to audition them 3 months back with a DIY amp which was not to my taste, but I definitely guessed the capabilities of the speakers.

I will go to Siva's place again for a demo, shortly.

square_wave
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 14:11

The ideal loudspeaker is a speaker which makes the sound originate from a single point. The concept of multiple drivers exist because of technical difficulties in making a single driver produce the entire sound spectrum. That is the reason why electrostatics like martin Logan and cadence speakers sound more coherent and spacious than conventional dynamic loudspeakers. The mids and highs are produced by a single diaphragm. In fact loudspeaker manufacturers spend a lot of their research money on making the speaker sound like a coherent whole in spite of having three or two drivers. Companies like Proac are champions in this. Different brands have different techniques to achieve this. The concept of KEF having the mids and highs originating from the same point is advancement in this direction. It is their way of doing it. I found it really nice and effective.
Perhaps somebody like Prithvi could shed some more light on this..:))

Manek
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 15:17

what you mean is driver integration ?

well many many ways to do it. It all starts with the cabinet, crossover point, diffraction control, driver mounting/spacing, driver sound dispersion, phase/time alignment etc etc etc......thats what makes speaker building a kind of a black art....many secret ways to do the same thing....some better than others.

As you mentioned electrostatics and electrostatic hybrids do have an edge maybe cause the panel does span the better part of the spectrum but the big challange here is to integrate the panel and a dynamic driver and make them play as one ! So two completely different drivers working on different principles are married together, for better or for worse.

Martin logan lets the panel play most of the spectrum down to about or less than 100hz and thats why the panel is so long and tall. Then they face the problem of making their dynamic driver woofer to work in tandem with or as fast as the panel which I think is a very tall ask.

Cadence on the other hand have a slightly different approach. Their panels dont go very low. They prefer to crossover the panel with the driver in the mid range and thats why their panels are smaller and they look more like regular speakers.

Two different implementations with the same principle of electrostatic hybrid speakers.

Quad on the other hand had a full electrostatic panel so that driver integration is not much of an issue but then there are other percieved issues like drivability, frequency extension etc, etc....

Hybrid electrostatic speaker manufacturers take the middle route, best of both worlds they say.

There is so much dope on the internet about driver integration(dynamic and hybrid), there is no end to it.

I'm sure Prithvi can add a lot to this as well.

Regards,

Manek.

Prithvi
Stammgast

#12 erstellt: 04. Mrz 2005, 18:06

manek,
would lt like to correct u? the stat panels of the ML go to 250HZ and not 100HZ. anythin below 250 goes to the woofer and above that to the stat panel.

Not a single electrostat maker has managed to integrate these two diff designed drivers (stat and dynamic woofer)

Not even cadence or ml: Its like making an elephant and an ant walk at the same speed. Thats why time alignment and phase is imp?
rgds
prithvi

Manek
Inventar

#13 erstellt: 05. Mrz 2005, 08:53

prithvi,
thanks for the correction....the martin logan guys in bombay told me 100hz when I asked them.....another case of false info or the vendor not knowing his product.

You are right about the analogy...the panels are fast for the dynamic drivers to catch up under ideal conditions. Yes time and phase alignment is paramount in these designs. Yes, ML and cadence are stiving towards that goal of seeless integration but my ears tell me that Cadence has made larger strides towards that than ML. Others opinions differ but then thats whats so great about this hobby/industry.

My belief is that seemless integration will never be possible with electrostatic panels and dynamic drivers. I also believe that they will get close, very close but not seemless. Neither will it happen with multiple dynamic drivers playing different frequencies. What is seemless to one ear may not be very seemless to another. Single/full range driver technology to my mind seems the only way out currently which is going to take time. The perfect speaker is yet to be made and till then all speakers are comprimises in one way or another. Owning speakers in todays world is about living with the speakers compromises/bad points and appreciating the the good points.

So lets enjoy the goodies available

Manek.

Prithvi
Stammgast

#14 erstellt: 05. Mrz 2005, 16:04

yes manek, getting the stat and woof to work in seamless manner will be impossible, yes the integration can get closeer by not perfect.

the best stat i heard and demoed for 6 months was the quad 989, out of the world, only they need room to breath, say 8.5 feet from the back wall.\

how ever the cadence arca's bass beats the pants off the 989, however the ML prodigy's mids are far superior than the arca's mids.

Well these are my personal findings. and to each his own.
rgds
prithvi

srikeerthi
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei

#15 erstellt: 12. Mrz 2005, 10:42

I'd been to Siva's place and had a chance to listen to Acoustic Portrait Tacet 3 speakers.

They did sound good, though a little bit of extra bass was present (even Siva said so). But seemed Okay to me coz I'd bee using them for watching movies too.

So here comes my question. He offered me the speakers on demo for a lower price (there was a slight finish defect). Do you think it is a good choice to go for that? He said it's still burnin in...

He also had a Music Fidelity Class A amp. Dont remember the model (8 years old he said). 50+50 watts output for 8.5k.

Expert opinions on this deal would be very helpful. Thnx

Arj
Inventar

#16 erstellt: 12. Mrz 2005, 10:52

that would be a MF A1 .. a great amp, sadly discontinued.
Make sure you do not run load intensive speakers (Below 8 ohms) on it as it does have problems with that.

if you decide to buy it, get the capacitors upgraded sa they would be old.

demo pieces, if offered lower are usually a good eal if you are given warranty on them.

Manek
Inventar

#17 erstellt: 12. Mrz 2005, 11:02

they should carry the same warranty as a new product at a discounted price.

manek.

srikeerthi
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei

#18 erstellt: 12. Mrz 2005, 11:06

Arj schrieb:

I've ehard that the A1's had a lot of issues. Is that true??

PS: Info found by googling, no personal experience

hifinovice1
Stammgast

#19 erstellt: 14. Mrz 2005, 03:11

Has the Corrson website been changed/removed?
When I click

www.corrson.com,I get a different site,that earlier.
Thanks.

srikeerthi
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei

#20 erstellt: 14. Mrz 2005, 05:59

The corrson website was down, I had informed Siva, he sid it will be up soon.

BTW abt the AMP, it is MF A100 and not A1 as I mentioned earlier (sorry abt that)

Any idea about its worth (he's quoting 8.5k for a 98 model)

Arj
Inventar

#21 erstellt: 14. Mrz 2005, 07:43

reply. think it is a the same as an A1

http://www.mhennessy1.f9.co.uk/mf_a1/others.htm

Think the cost was around USD200 or so hence 8.5K seems OK check this out

http://audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-18364.html

srikeerthi
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei

#22 erstellt: 14. Mrz 2005, 07:53

Thanx for the reply Arj..

As the links show they are the upgraded version of A1 and share some of its problems..

I guess I'll check Norge 2060 or Pulz amps (my budget is low <10k)

benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht

#23 erstellt: 14. Mrz 2005, 18:30

The output transistors seem to be the same 2n3055/MJ2955 combination as used in the A1. I'm surprised at this frankly, and failures are all too common. ".

if i recall correctly those transistors are the same ones used in the Rod Elliot's P3A amp. it is a very common transistor . however, many fakes have appeared in the market(in SP road).
Benks