Pace, Rhythm and Dynamics

I had been to a jazz concert yesterday. At the chowdiah memorial hall Bangalore. It was a German band and they were performing along with some well known carnatic musicians.
I thought I will pen something before the memory is lost in time.

The “essence of the performance” or the “entirety of the experience” to me is as follows:

1- The creativity and competence of the artist.

2- The purity of the sound. There are many aspects in music reproduction which can cause various types of distortions. The absence of these will help the mind connect with the reproduced sound without much assimilation / calculation. The artist plays an instrument and the brain immediately relaxes and connects without having to do any kind of calculation. This is as opposed to a badly amplified concert wherein the eyes see that an artist has played a note and the brain “tries” to assimilate this information and “forcibility” accepts that a note has been played and tries to enjoy it irrespective of the fact that the note has been mutilated by myriad of distortions. This causes brain fatigue or disconnect with the sound / music.

3- One thing I noticed is that there is no “pin point imaging” at all in the sound. This is a fact that I have noticed for many years when I listen to concerts (mostly unamplified – in close quarters). However, what happens is that one can comprehend the “general location of musical manifestation” in a three dimensional space within an orchestra. This general location will occupy a certain harmonized space in the “xyz” co-ordinates in the soundstage. But this aspect of sound reproduction is extremely low in importance compared to many others when you listen to a band.

4- The many aspects (terms) that one uses to describe sound, namely; Dynamics, timing, pace, rhythm, detail, highs, lows, mids…..and what not ……..;

All these qualities are intrinsic to the “overall musical manifestation” which emanates from the band. To me these aspects are very evident (and complete) in each note the band is playing. It is extremely difficult for me to separate any of these qualities when I listen to a band playing music. If the sound is right, your brain will not try to “separate and analyze” any of these aspects. It is only when something is wrong; the brain tries to figure out what is going on.

Pace, rhythm, dynamics and Naim;

I firmly believe that there is no specific brand which has an exclusive capability to identify only these aspects and do justice to them much better than any others. Naim historically has built a perception that their gear can do these better than the others in the UK. In the olden days when UK was known for the “mellow sound”, Naim used to be the brand which stood out by following a different approach which gave them this reputation. I do not have any experience with Naim at all so cannot comment. But I am sure there are many others now who can do all this. If Naim sounds different from all others in the current market, then we need to figure out what “naim” is doing with the sound !

If the engineering is right and the purpose is not to create gear which is partial to certain aspects of music reproduction, all these aspects will be “correct”. This is my personal opinion.

Pace, rhythm, dynamics and Naim; I firmly believe that there is no specific brand which has an exclusive capability to identify only these aspects and do justice to them much better than any others. Naim historically has built a perception that their gear can do these better than the others in the UK. In the olden days when UK was known for the “mellow sound”, Naim used to be the brand which stood out by following a different approach which gave them this reputation. I do not have any experience with Naim at all so cannot comment. But I am sure there are many others now who can do all this. If Naim sounds different from all others in the current market, then we need to figure out what “naim” is doing with the sound ! If the engineering is right and the purpose is not to create gear which is partial to certain aspects of music reproduction, all these aspects will be “correct”. This is my personal opinion.

Actually you are right. When music feels right you do not feel like analysing the PRAT as a separate entity. But that is top-down approach which is easier said than done. If you look at it bottom-up what companies like Naim do is get the PRAT right which makes music sound right (or say more right). You may be correct that there might be many other companies which get this aspect as good as the Naim but the challenge is to find them. I think it is a tough challenge because I have not found any till now. Some Naimees say that Avondale is another such brand. Avondale is also a UK brand who have been modding Naims for sometime now. Now they have their own line of equipments as well.

I have heard the older Naims and yes while they did PRAT very well they lacked refinement and air in the music to an extent. Actually that rather raw energy and drive gave them the fame and cult following. Today's Naim has changed. Now they are very refined, airy, transparent but still retains the drive and rhythm. What you notice with such a setup is even if the music is new one still identifies the rhythm instantly and recognizes the melody of it. I carried some of those Hindustani classical CDs which I normally find somewhat boring and guess what I loved it on the Naim. I recognized the music, it just made sense. I could not warm up to the old Naim sound btw. So, you are right, realism cannot be attained just by having right PRAT. But I think keeping it intact is the most difficult thing to achieve in a hifi setup. Interestingly rock, jazz and hindustani is where these issues show up more IME, whereas western classical is okay even if there are PRAT issues to an extent.

I dont think companies like Naim are trying to do something to the music, they are just trying to choose a different set of compromises which according to them are less important for faithful music reproduction.

square_wave schrieb:

3- One thing I noticed is that there is no “pin point imaging” at all in the sound.

Hi Square Wave,

This observation is absolutely correct. Especially when one closes the eyes one can not locate the musiscians anymore. Only when one has "eye-contact" with the musicians one can somehow audibly locate the position on the stage. But not in a way one can sometimes observe with high end equipment which produces these pin point sound stages which audiophiles nowadays are all looking for.
I therefore believe that such equipment produces a totally artificial illusion which has nothing to do with reality. Reality = High Fidelity, which is the original idea behind our hobby. Today only a few manufacturers are still determined to produce equipment that sounds natural and real. ...unfortunately

The-German-HiFi-Connection schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: 3- One thing I noticed is that there is no “pin point imaging” at all in the sound. Hi Square Wave, This observation is absolutely correct. Especially when one closes the eyes one can not locate the musiscians anymore. Only when one has "eye-contact" with the musicians one can somehow audibly locate the position on the stage. But not in a way one can sometimes observe with high end equipment which produces these pin point sound stages which audiophiles nowadays are all looking for. I therefore believe that such equipment produces a totally artificial illusion which has nothing to do with reality. Reality = High Fidelity, which is the original idea behind our hobby. Today only a few manufacturers are still determined to produce equipment that sounds natural and real. ...unfortunately

Yes Jochen, I too have heard some speakers here which sound the way you described. Very expensive speakers actually. While you are right that live music is not about precise imaging, hi-fidelity is about being true to the source i.e CD. If the recording has precise imaging then it should come out that way on the setup else not. That is my understanding. Since most music is recorded in studios and edited to sound precise I have stopped looking for "live" music at home. Yes, if the dynamics are properly reproduced a good recording can sound like magic of live to an extent. But how many of our favourite music is recorded like that

abhi.pani schrieb:

imaging, hi-fidelity is about being true to the source i.e CD. If the recording has precise imaging then it should come out that way on the setup else not. That is my understanding. Since most music is recorded in studios and edited to sound precise I have stopped looking for "live" music at home. Yes, if the dynamics are properly reproduced a good recording can sound like magic of live to an extent. But how many of our favourite music is recorded like that :.

Interesting observation !

Are recordings done this way ?

If one records a five piece band using microphones, will the recording contains information which makes the sounds more precisely discernable in the soundstage ?

square_wave schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: imaging, hi-fidelity is about being true to the source i.e CD. If the recording has precise imaging then it should come out that way on the setup else not. That is my understanding. Since most music is recorded in studios and edited to sound precise I have stopped looking for "live" music at home. Yes, if the dynamics are properly reproduced a good recording can sound like magic of live to an extent. But how many of our favourite music is recorded like that :. If one records a five piece band using microphones, will the recording contains information which makes the sounds more precisely discernable in the soundstage ?

IMO, No. The location of the instruments in a closely mic-ed recording cannot be discerned, because the mic doesnt know where it is placed on the stage . It only gives the recording engineer the flexibility to "edit" the mix to add very precise imaging cues.

Generally, using multiple mics where each mic is trying to capture a single instrument closely (what we call close-micing) is not the natural way we hear a live performance. What we hear in a real live performance is the "whole" as one. Unless it is captured like that it will never have the same level of coherency or the realism of one band.

So, if a single mic is used to capture a recording it should not have such precise imaging information but close multi-micing allows for post-editing where imaging cues are added.

Many times multiple mics are used but not in a close-mic configuration but at strategic locations around the stage and some also in the audience arena to capture the ambience and applause in a realistic way. These are great recordings and have that real live feeling.

square_wave schrieb:

If one records a five piece band using microphones, will the recording contains information which makes the sounds more precisely discernable in the soundstage ?

abhi.pani schrieb:

IMO, No. The location of the instruments in a closely mic-ed recording cannot be discerned, because the mic doesnt know where it is placed on the stage . It only gives the recording engineer the flexibility to "edit" the mix to add very precise imaging cues. Generally, using multiple mics where each mic is trying to capture a single instrument closely (what we call close-micing) is not the natural way we hear a live performance. What we hear in a real live performance is the "whole" as one. Unless it is captured like that it will never have the same level of coherency or the realism of one band. So, if a single mic is used to capture a recording it should not have such precise imaging information but close multi-micing allows for post-editing where imaging cues are added.

Abhi, I quite sure that you're not correct when you say "The location of the instruments in a closely mic-ed recording cannot be discerned, because the mic doesnt know where it is placed on the stage".
For a microphone distance of the instrument equates to time & in turn, time equates to phase. Thus, with this phase info a microphone can very easily give you a spatial cue of where an instrument is in the soundstage.
A human ear detects direction of sound in the same way - this ability is very much alive & well with forum member Krish - last evening all of us met @ Amp_Nut's house & Amp_Nut stood behind Krish & jangled his car keys. Then he asked Krish to identify where the sound was coming from. Krish, using his 2 (only 2!) microphones, was able to precisely detect the location of the jangling keys i.e. he was able to tell whether it was above/below ear height & whether left side/right side.

Here is a 2006 article by Bruce Barlett who explains the advantages of stereo microphoning i.e. using 2-3 mics as opposed to using one mic per instrument. He explains how to get imaging, soundstage depth, width, etc using this technique.
http://www.deltamedi...hone_techniques.html

BW, may be I was not clear enough. I meant, when each instrument has one or two dedicated mics placed really close it (the way it happens in a typical concert), the position of the instrument cannot be deduced simply because the mic doesnt know where in the stage it is placed. So in such cases the imaging is added at the mixing console.

What you say regarding how our ears (and mics) capture exact location of an instrument from a distance, I totally agree. It is common sense .

In fact I personally think that is how the feeling of real live performance can be captured, albeit to a certain extent.

Many times multiple mics are used but not in a close-mic configuration but at strategic locations around the stage and some also in the audience arena to capture the ambience and applause in a realistic way. These are great recordings and have that real live feeling.

abhi.pani schrieb:

BW, may be I was not clear enough. I meant, when each instrument has one or two dedicated mics placed really close it (the way it happens in a typical concert), the position of the instrument cannot be deduced simply because the mic doesnt know where in the stage it is placed. So in such cases the imaging is added at the mixing console. What you say regarding how our ears (and mics) capture exact location of an instrument from a distance, I totally agree. It is common sense . In fact I personally think that is how the feeling of real live performance can be captured, albeit to a certain extent. Many times multiple mics are used but not in a close-mic configuration but at strategic locations around the stage and some also in the audience arena to capture the ambience and applause in a realistic way. These are great recordings and have that real live feeling.

ahh, ok! thanx for clarifying.....

Maybe a little OT, but the position of the microphones in this video is interesting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSheWcRGbF0. Moreover, there are two of them. Probably goes to show that the acoustics of where the music is being performed is also critical to the placement of the microphones.

Regards,
- Nagaraj

Hi guys,

do read up on the rca living stereo and mercury living presence 2 and 3 mic techniques for recording orchestra's in stereo. They were developed in the 50's but are still super effective.

Compare it to the decca and philips way or multiple mics technique(a stage full).

Very educational.

Manek

Good to see all the old horses coming back here to chip in even if it happens once in a year

Some horses are still missing.

Lets call on SUB_BOSS, may be we need to pick up a fight or two get this place kickin once again

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/mercury.html

Interesting read about the history and recording techniques of mercury. This would be just scratching the surface to what Robert C. Fine achieved with his 3 mic recordings. If you really want to know more, just pick up one cd from the list and hear it for yourself. There are other articles which I don't have links too but once I find them I will put em up.

Regards

Manek

A recording engineers view

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/recording1.htm

Manek

Hey Abhi,
Gather from the 'other' forum that you are going to be looking at an all Naim system ( I'm referring to your post in the buy/sell section)

Interesting.

Do tell all.

Best,
K

Krish schrieb:

Hey Abhi, Gather from the 'other' forum that you are going to be looking at an all Naim system ( I'm referring to your post in the buy/sell section) Interesting. Do tell all. Best, K :prost

Yup..I saw it too

Are you going for Naim speakers as well ?

I hope Abhi doesn't get tired of the pace after the first thrill subsides. That's what happened to me when I auditioned a complete Naim set-up over several hours. So before plunging fully into it better check out the fatigue-factor also.

Hey guys, yes I am a Naimee now, as they call an all-Naim user in UK . I will write in detail what this is all about after my setup is complete. May be in a week or so.

Jochen, what you say is very much possible and I have already heard that happen but it was the case with the older generation Naim. The older Naims were all about Pace and timing but they were unrefined and veiled in their presentation. So, to an ear which is used to refined sound this will sound like "too much" and ultimately wear him out. I had the same experience. But the new generation Naim is a totally different story, it is very refined and transparent still retaining the timing, which is the foundation of Naim philosophy. The current gen Naim is so refined that old-timer Naimees refuse to accept it. Some are even surprised/shocked that Naim could do this. Even within the new gen Naim there are those one odd products which lack finesse in their sound so it is important that one studies their line up well before picking up the combo. Some products in their lineup seem to be made with an intention to fill up a gap in the lineup and it is these products which sounds half baked. To give an example the complete XS series is like that.

I will write more about Naim in a while.

abhi.pani schrieb:

The older Naims were all about Pace and timing but they were unrefined and veiled in their presentation. So, to an ear which is used to refined sound this will sound like "too much" and ultimately wear him out. I will write more about Naim in a while.

Very well said. That was exactly my experience also. So I'm looking forward to your review. Next time I have the opportunity to audition Naim gear, I'll do that. Until now I have more like avoided Naim.

Edit: added last sentence