Newbie speaker audition

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Ananth
Neuling

#1 erstellt: 06. Feb 2007, 09:37

Hi the forum,
I have been an interested reader of the forum for some time now and have now taken the plunge. Would love to hear from you chaps on this.
1.My Requirements:
I listen to Music a fair bit - Western classical, Carnatic, Jazz mainly.
I am looking at a setup that can serve music as well as HT purposes. I understand that a stereo amp could (will actually :)) give better music performance but I have decided to take that hit.
The setup will be in my Living room - 22x14x10 (L,B,H) which has an dining room attached to it in a L config of roughly the same size.

Given this I am looking at recievers in the ~90 W range.

2. My auditions - in brief (I am using the definitions on audio quality as has been posted at Axiom and ofcourse coloured by my understanding of them)
Reference pieces: Beethoven's symphony no 5 in C Minor, Symphony No 3 in E Flat and Birdland from Weather Report
Movies: Lord of The ring -Two Towers. Helm's deep scene where the Orc's tramp down the valley. Raindrops falling in the foreground.

a. Onkyo 604 with Jamo 660, Onkyo 107 and B&W 309
- 107: Was a surprise since I expected to be lot worse(based on experience of 4600. I was able to make out the different instruments, and could keep up with the dynamic shift (especially in Symphony no 3). I felt it lacked a bit of detail. Birdland should have made my tap my foot but. Overall I thought it was a decent speaker.

- With Jamo 660: I expected a lot more from this. The details were very muted. Bass tended to predominate. It seemed to be made for the Home theatre boom sounds. Give it a miss.

- B&w: Ah. This was sweet. I could make out every instrument,was very responsive- alive I should say. For eg: Symphony no 3 has Cello's only playing on the right in the overture and then suddenly explodes with Violins and this handled it beautifully. I listened over 30-45 min without noticing the time. This was lovely. The Home theatre : I oculd feel the Orcs thumping the spears, the conversation of King Theodred was clear and the boom when the wall blows up was just awe some. This became my reference.

b. Yamaha Rx-V659 with diamond 8.4 and 9.5:
- Diamond 9.5: I felt it was bottom heavy and lacking details in the mid range. I was disappointed with that as I heard some good things about it. I tried the Home theatre - I guess the bass came into its own then. But my issue is should not a speaker that is good for music be good with the movies as well. I understand that sometimes you may have to compromise on the the bass but then hey what is the SWF for.

- Diamond 8.4: This made my shortlist. Everything the younger brother was not (9.5) funny thought the newer one was to be an improved one. The details were clear and could I had a sense of the stage. Maybe the bass was not as good as 9.5 but hey it had the zing. Could not check out the movies as I had to leave for another appointment. Maybe I should hear them again.

c. Yamaha 459 (in lieu of 659) with Tannoy fusion
- Fusion fs 4: Sharp, Crisp (alright I am making these terms up but this is what I felt). The notes was crystal clear.I felt like it I when I heard the B&W.The Bird man made me tap my feet. Lovely. I put in the Lord of the rings and boy was I disappointed. There just no bass no punch and worse the sound just hurt my ears. (Velodyne VX10) did not know if it was an issue with the AVR (they were brilliant with the diamonds) or the FS4 being too emphatic with the mid range and missing out on the low end. I was told there was an issue with the Velodyne cabling but it did not seem logical. I think I should go there again. I was told that they would be getting the Marantz next week so awaiting it eagerly.

d. Sonodyne sonus 2605 with the their stereo amp: OK I heard this the first time with the stereo. I had to sit fairly near - about 2 meters from the speaker. The bass and treble was made flat and the volume control was in my hands. I was amzed with the sound quality. I went here right after listening to the Tannoys and was surprised how good this sounded even compared to the Tannoys. Maybe it was'nt as detailed as the FS4 (or is it that I am subconciously factoring in the 15 k difference in cost). The home theatre performance was brilliant- This was demoed without the TV. For those of you who have seen the showroom at Forum know that the Sonus is kept in the outer enclosure without the TV. I could visualise the scene just by listening- the details were well etched out. All this mind you in an all glass environment....or was that a factor in making this sound better. Any Sonus 2605 owners/listeners out there- your inputs please.

Also - The build quality (external) was good and the speakers was a hefty 21+ KG. Pretty happy that an Indian company could do this. This is probably going to be my choice given the VFM factor. I want to another round of auditions just to make sure.

Comments and reccomendations required for my next round:
1. On other possibilities in the budget range of 50-70 k for the 5.1 speaker set. Maybe a trifle more for a better SWR.
I live in bangalore BTW

2. I liked 3 speakers at different price levels (B&W, the Tannoy and the Sonus 2605). Whle I felt I could possibly rate the 2605 lower than the other two I am surprised that I could percieve very little difference between them. Is this due to the fact I did not hear them with all other things being equal, or my ears or not sensitve enough to pick the nuances. If this is due to the latter I would like some help from the bangalore members

3. Dont understand the timbre matching factor that every one seems to raise. Why cant I use a B&W 309 as fronts and have the rest as something else say Sonodyne.

4. Given the mid-level AV R like Yamaha 659, Onkyo 604, Denon 2307/1907, Marantz 4001 (OK its 80 w but should still be sufficient right) what differences can they probably have on the output quality. For stereo - in the pure direct mode they are supposed to be just amplifying the signal. Given that why would the music sound different.

5. I have listened to speakers with diff amplifiers. Ideally they should have been tested with all other variables constant (Inputs, listening room, cabling etc). And given that you are going to different places and with diff amps, cabling, room config etc how can you decide a speaker is good. Can a pair of good speakers be loused up by a bad configuration (like maybe the music ranch one??)

Arj
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 06. Feb 2007, 13:25

Welcome Ananth !
First of all let me commend you on a woderful 1st post..you seem to be very clear on what you want and that is always the best part to start.

also its great that you did not start and end with a Bose.

Before starting on Hifi, the most important part is to fix the budget and I am assuming you have already done that and hence your above choices..hence i will try not to deviate from that and give you another option in brands, Unless you are really asking for it !

But since you want to use it for music and Hifi..you need to decide which is "more equal" . from your post i seem to get the impression that you are going music first but not at the expense of movies.

Also for music you seem to rpefer the 309s..(Although the Hifi Purist in me is itching that you go at least 1 model up into the 600 series !)

liked 3 speakers at different price levels (B&W, the Tannoy and the Sonus 2605). Whle I felt I could possibly rate the 2605 lower than the other two I am surprised that I could percieve very little difference between them. Is this due to the fact I did not hear them with all other things being equal, or my ears or not sensitve enough to pick the nuances. If this is due to the latter I would like some help from the bangalore members

Picking out differences in speakers is very difficult from a critical appreciatiion of equipment hence better to go the way you have of looking at it from how it sounds to you.

all other things being equal, keeping it all same, is the ideal way of auditioning but unfortunately for the first time buyer who is buying an entire system it is practically and logistically difficult as dealers are different.

the Room has a great influence on the sound but that can usually be negated by placement and some very basic room treatment so you eed to factor that out. but you can definitely insist that they keep the configuration (In terms of speaker distances and seating position) as you want it ie same

so go by what you feel sounds the best, but you need to listen to music for a very long time and ideally with a checklist/rating sheet on factors which are important to you. and then decide..

although you will get recommendations from folks here,..they are all specific to their tastes (Just google Fletcher Munson Curves and you will get to know how each ear is different !)

so go by your ears

Dont understand the timbre matching factor that every one seems to raise. Why cant I use a B&W 309 as fronts and have the rest as something else say Sonodyne.

the term is a bit overhyped..but more than 70% of HT audio comes from teh center channel..hence use only movies with lot of conversation and music to see if it feels homogenous to you..if so go for it..but go for a good center. may folks actually use the same model as the front (as a single unit) to ensure that.

Another thing is Speaker sensitivity. if both the fronts and the center are of different sensitivities then an increase in volume would increase the output from the center and the fronts in a different ratio which is not very nice !.

hence if you like the BWs so much it is better to go for a BW center as well or else err on the +ve side for the center ie the center can be louder than the other (Higher sensitivity) since it carres a70% of the content and almost 95% of all dialogues.

the surrounds can be anything..unless you are anally picky

Given the mid-level AV R like Yamaha 659, Onkyo 604, Denon 2307/1907, Marantz 4001 (OK its 80 w but should still be sufficient right) what differences can they probably have on the output quality. For stereo - in the pure direct mode they are supposed to be just amplifying the signal. Given that why would the music sound different.

well that is the beauty/complexity of this hobby..each component is different and gives a different tonality and each amplifier has a different synergy with each speaker..the permutations are mind boggling.

But you cannot really go wrong with any..I have a Onkyo but would usually recommend a Marantz in india

but they are all good.

the answer to the above can span over days of discussion with no result

I have listened to speakers with diff amplifiers. Ideally they should have been tested with all other variables constant (Inputs, listening room, cabling etc). And given that you are going to different places and with diff amps, cabling, room config etc how can you decide a speaker is good. Can a pair of good speakers be loused up by a bad configuration (like maybe the music ranch one??)

Yes it can be and very often is as you have mentioned above...very similiar to IT systems. even very good ones can be botched up by bad implementations and vice versa ..lol !

as per "Experts" more than 50% of the sound result is influenced by the room and the configuration !!! and after that the speakers. (I am knowingly not getting into the amps vs Source first vs cable discussion here !!)

finally. given the size of the room (Is the dining room walled and separate or conncted ? ) you need to have a powerful amp ..around 60-80 into 8 Ohms.

please be careful with onkyo figures as they give power into 6 Ohms..need to nultiply by 3/4 to get 8 ohm figures.

Also get at least a 10" or ideally a 12" sub to really enjoy your movies..and going by the excellent taste in LOTR (A couple for fans here) you could have a really enjoyable experience !

[Beitrag von Arj am 07. Feb 2007, 03:33 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#3 erstellt: 06. Feb 2007, 18:11

Hi Ananth,
I have a similar impression as you do regarding the products you have mentioned...

1. Even I found the Tannoys to be glaring bright and kind of clinical sounding at Music Ranch, hence didnt care much about it.

2. Regrading the wharfdales, I have similar impressions again, Diamond 9.5 is kind of bass heavy with muddy, ill-detailed mids and highs. But its younger brother Diamond 8.4 is much better, more balanced though a bit mid-heavy and lacks the final punch, but still much better than 9.5.

3. Sonus 2605, though not the most refined speakers but still the most balanced as well as the most exciting speaker in that price range. Bass and mids are well balanced and dont lack the bite or the punch we expect from a floorstander....but highs are not the crispiest among the lot, but still decent IMO, overall a nice package.

4. B&W..hmmm, as Arj said, they start sounding decent from their 600 series onwards but still they dont justify their price tag...not a VFM option IMO.

5. Jamo again start sounding good at a higher price point (40k+), but there are others in the market which can beat them.

Now let me put in brief what other products you should look at before finalizing your shortlist...

If you are looking at a price tag of less than 25k, then Sonus 2605 is a strong contender but also look at Arasu's MTM bookshelf speakers which is priced at 18k and sound darn good.

If you are looking at a speaker around 35k then give a look at Acoustics portrait MS-301 floorstander as well as Lyrita Audio Harmony1 speakers.
Here are the websites:

http://layaacoustics.com/

http://www.acousticportrait.com/index.html

http://www.lyrita-audio.in/

Debu
Ist häufiger hier

#4 erstellt: 06. Feb 2007, 19:09

3. Dont understand the timbre matching factor that every one seems to raise. Why cant I use a B&W 309 as fronts and have the rest as something else say Sonodyne.

You MUST timbre match at least the L/R and centre speakers in a 5.1 setup. Probably you may use different surrounds without noticing much of a difference in a HT set-up. However, for multichannel music listening, timbre matching for all is recommended. If you liked B&W309, better stick with 300 series for all five speakers. The subwoofer does not need timbre match, however.

- Debu

PS: My home setup: 4x B&W DM303 + 1x B&W LCR3 + 1x Velodyne CHT-8R + Denon AVR1705 + Kimber cable qwik12

Ananth
Neuling

#5 erstellt: 10. Feb 2007, 14:44

Hi Thank you for the responses. I was away in the boondocks- no access to the net.

Arj- thanks for your response.

Another thing is Speaker sensitivity. if both the fronts and the center are of different sensitivities then an increase in volume would increase the output from the center and the fronts in a different ratio which is not very nice !.

Thanks for this. This makes a lot of sense. How critical is sensitivity as a factor. There is a very informative article on Axiom at

http://www.axiomaudio.com/power.html

Or they may have very efficient speakers (Klipsch, Cerwin-Vega, Tannoy, and the like) that will play extremely loud using modest amplifiers, the trade-off being a very large degradation in tonal accuracy, a definite harshness, and a complete loss of off-axis performance that accompanies horn-loaded designs.

Keeping this what would be the golden mean in terms of sensitivity (or should this be a topic in itself?)

Also regarding the room size the dining and Living rooms are connected but have curtains to provide some sort of isolation. Also for ratings I go by their ratings in US rather than their JEITA ratings.
Finally regarding the IT implementation bit- tell me about it.

Abhi,
Thank you for your response. I thought there was something wrong after I found I did not like a couple of speakers that were praised in some reviews.

I would be giving the Acoustic portrait a try. I see you have recommended the Monitor series - Have you listened to the Tacet series?

Ananth

abhi.pani
Inventar

#6 erstellt: 10. Feb 2007, 15:14

I would be giving the Acoustic portrait a try. I see you have recommended the Monitor series - Have you listened to the Tacet series?

Yah, I have heard the Tacet series as well, I found them mediocre sounding...

Monitor series in comparision is superb

Keeping this what would be the golden mean in terms of sensitivity (or should this be a topic in itself?)

There is nothing like ideal sensitivity, but on an average 90db and above is nice to have. Again, when it goes beyond 95db, its approaching another extreme so equipment matching becomes exceptionally crucial, without which it can sound horrible.

Arj
Inventar

#7 erstellt: 10. Feb 2007, 20:18

Ananth schrieb:

Considering that all the above are competitors to Axiom, I would use it with Large Dollops of Salt

I actually owned Klipsch Speakers and they can sound very nice with a good Amplifier.

Tannoys are nowhere near bright, although the Cerwin Wega will enjoy itself in a Teenage headbangers party.

Sensitivity is only one part of a speaker that determines its sound.. there is a lot more to it hence better not to fall into the specifications trap. for eg there are 81db speakers which are excellent and so also ditto 105+ db speakers...and there are 90db speakers which can sound rather depressing and other 90db sounding heavenly

The most important "Spec " for a speaker is as to how well it synergises with an Amp. Sensitivity is only 1 part of many, two other significant ones are Nominal impedance and its Phase variation.

but in the end all these specs are just 1 input...and from the "IT" example which you seem to get, its like saying matching a package feature to a business process is a sure shot success of an implementaion

I able to get myself a nice and comely French Speaker for my home(Which I shipped back..duty and all that)

and if you are not the travelling abroad kind, the ones mentioned by abhi are also really good options to add on to.

And while you are at it why not also consider Cadence and Quad as well. Cadence is also a made in India like Acoustic Portrait, althought it is purely 2 channel. and Quad has a full complement of HT speakers

From what i seem to read and hear in these forums, the AP, and the Cadence among Indian speakers stand a good couple of Heads and shoulders above the Sonodyns

and also..

Well need to stop the urge to recommend and Confuse

too many options only creates an opportunity for a screw up

[Beitrag von Arj am 10. Feb 2007, 20:23 bearbeitet]

Tim_Choco
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei

#8 erstellt: 11. Feb 2007, 02:37

The AP is excellent for music.

But has anyone actually auditioned a movie on a 5.1 setup on AP? Any reviews on that front?

abhi.pani
Inventar

#9 erstellt: 11. Feb 2007, 04:21

Some people have auditioned the AP in HT mode and have found it to be seamless and fantastic...though I havent auditioned it myself. It also has a lot to do with the AVR used..

But the speakers could sound that good is a credit in itself, that you should look for.

Arj
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 11. Feb 2007, 04:55

Ananth schrieb:

Hi Thank you for the responses. I was away in the boondocks- no access to the net.

Also regarding the room size the dining and Living rooms are connected but have curtains to provide some sort of isolation. Also for ratings I go by their ratings in US rather than their JEITA ratings.
Finally regarding the IT implementation bit- tell me about it.

I mised that one.. tht means for all practical purposes you have one huge accoustic cavity

The Good: Very few reflections and more of direct sound which is excellent (Of course good placement is again very important)

The Bad : You are going to have some Bass suckouts. hence may need either a more powerful amp or more sensitive speaker.

There are some excellent software which do a complete simulation.. I use a pretty good one called CARA

http://www.cara.de/ENU/CARA/index.html

an online version with fractional features which can be very very illuminating is here

http://www.rivesaudio.com/CARAquick/CARAframe.html

of course after all this you will still need to rely on the organ between ones ears for the best placement

[Beitrag von Arj am 11. Feb 2007, 04:56 bearbeitet]

Kamal
Stammgast

#11 erstellt: 11. Feb 2007, 06:49

of course after all this you will still need to rely on the organ between ones ears for the best placement

You mean, the Nose?

Arj
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 11. Feb 2007, 07:29

Kamal schrieb:

of course after all this you will still need to rely on the organ between ones ears for the best placement

You mean, the Nose?

LOL

kamalji since you are reading this, I am really really glad i specified the ears..