single driver vs conventional speakers

bose is not really a single driver. it is a sub sat system

the cubes frequency range corresponds to around 250hz to around 15khz at 3db while the bass module take up the 50-250 odd perhaps even less.

bose is great when you want decent sound and you wnat a small setup and/or small space.

irrespective of what folks say, it does pretty good soundstaging in its price range with a good amp and does have the ability to disappear. and its pretty well built.

my take is that most audiophiles bash bose because thats when you can tell everyone that you have arrived as an audiophile.. perhaps like the puberty rituals


but if you want true single driver sound in hifi then you should look for fostex or lowther based speakers.

even concentric drivers by tannoy and cabasse are pretty amazing in that regard

another option is looking at truly time aligned speakers especially the green mountain range

electrostats are different..they have a "sparkling" trble..perhaps one of the cleanest in the business but it is the art of integrating it with the bass which is a hit or miss.

the probelm with single drivers is that they do the liddle very well but the lack of top and bottom makes them weak. but in a small setup they can be very good

bose is not really a single driver. it is a sub sat system

arj,

the ones i have are called videomates and are just two boxes with one of the enclosures having a built-in amp. each box has a single driver. its not the usual sub-sat variety with two or more satellites and a bass module used for home theatre. unfortunately they dont have them on the site. but i did see a new pair in bombay long time back at crossroads. way too expensive to buy first hand some 25k!!!

am pretty sure the drivers are the same
might have 2 tripath based amplifiers to run them hence the clean sound !

Steve, Lyritas' harmony spkrs are ,as you know,single(Fostex) driver speakers,and I have no hesitation in recommending them to anyone looking for real HiFi quality sound at a budget.
You must have googled fostex and seen that there a no, of outfits producing speaker systems around these divers.There are inherent advantages in having single driver spkrs-no crossovers reqd,hence no signal manipulation/degradation/cloration, no probs re time alignment,seamless sound etc etc
While Sanjays'&my reviews may have quickened your interest, it would be good if you could somehow make it to Delhi to check them out yourself.
Alternatively, you could ask Viren for the add of an owner in B'lore who wld be willing to let you audition the set up.
Bht, do google Fostex & read reviews of other people who have heard them.
Regards,
Kamal

heard the rethms with lowthers at av show in mumbai....wasnt impressed with anything I heard. Heard lowther DX3 with the lowther designed cabinets...nothing but the midrage......not impressed.

heard the 8" fostex(with whizzer) in the lowther designed cabinet and liked it.

IMHO, I would not switch to a single driver yet.
Manek.

I do subscribe to the tannow, kef and the cabasse routes though.

hi kamal,

a trip to delhi would be just too expensive. viren has a listen and return if you dont like policy so i will be availing of it. it caught my fancy the minute he put it up on his website. they're pretty recent so i dont think he has a customer for them in bangalore. i did hear his old integre 30 watt valve with his sequel reference. nice unfatiguing sound. personally not for me i prefer simpler designs.

regards

Hi Kamal, Doc,
Did you check out the Valve Mini (10 watts/channel) with the Harmony One ? One of my cousins has asked my reccomendation for a good setup (he is not a audiophile)...I thought, lets introduce him to hifi. He listens to all the soft variety of music (English, Hindi etc)...no hard rock for him. Immediately Viren's creation came to my mind....I just have a few issues here:

1. How well the 10 watter handle the Harmony One ? Doesnt have to blast them...but should be solid upto decent loudness levels. Viren says, it can do so...so I am a bit relaxed . But I would be happy to read other forum member's opinions about this.

2. Maintanance of tubes: Since my bro is no Audiophile so neither does he knows about the maintance factors of the tubes nor would he be very enthusiastic about it. Hence I have to research and decide how easy it is to maintain tubes for a non-audiophilic kind of a person.

I need your opinions regarding this buddies. Accordingly I will proceed.

1. How well the 10 watter handle the Harmony One ? Doesnt have to blast them...but should be solid upto decent loudness levels. Viren says, it can do so...so I am a bit relaxed . But I would be happy to read other forum member's opinions about this

Will check this out for you, abhi.
Any prefs as to kind of music you would like Sanjay/me to use for the listen?
Regards,
Kamal

Manek, I wish you could listen to Virens' rig-you might be pleasantly surprised.
Regards,
Kamal

You could try out Hindi Film music like Kal ho na ho, Lagaan kind of recordings. Also give Jagjit singh a try.
For English something like MLTR, Celine Dion, Phil Collins, Boney M...should be fine.

From this you could make out his choices...basically the popular ones which are melodious. One of my concerns here is bass. Please observe, if the Mini Valve does justice to reproduction of low frequency well. I know the mids will be good through the valves but decent LF adds that extra bit of excitement to the music. If the Valve mini does that well then I dont have any hesitation in going for them.

Right, I understand.
Will do needful in a few days,if thats OK by you-have hurt my foot so presently find it difficult to drive.
Regards,
Kamal

welcome to the tube gang abhi am sure the 10 watter will drive the harmony ones cos they're 92db. with the cadence arcas at 91 db the wattage rarely went up to beyond 20 watts with the canasya. and that was a living room more on the larger side so for the average flat a 92db speaker into 10 watts should be ok. if he wants bookshelves the monitor audio's are 90 db.

Right, I understand. Will do needful in a few days,if thats OK by you-have hurt my foot so presently find it difficult to drive.

Please take your time buddy. I am glad that you have agreed to do the needful for me. I will wait.

welcome to the tube gang abhi

Hey not for me..for my bro.
Even he wouldnt have imagined what I am planning for him.
He was looking at mini-compo and suddenly he will land with something so radical as Single driver Towers + Tube amp
HE will definitely find it something of StarWars types..

bose is great when you want decent sound and you wnat a small setup and/or small space. irrespective of what folks say, it does pretty good soundstaging in its price range with a good amp and does have the ability to disappear. and its pretty well built. my take is that most audiophiles bash bose because thats when you can tell everyone that you have arrived as an audiophile.. perhaps like the puberty rituals

Hi Arj,
2-3 days back I was at Bose showroom at Bangalore. I had a audiophile cousin with me. We played the Bose-301 BS speakers. After the demo here are few things that we noticed in common:

1. For a common man, the sound is defintely awesome and infact dream-like. They produce exciting sounds.

2. The excitement was partly because of its vastly open open sounding characteristics (wide stage) and partly because the speakers does "Dissappear"..so for a lay man its "MAGIC". The vocals are typically pronounced. Together they sound life-like.

So there is no doubt that any layman would be instantly floored by the sound and would consider BOSE to be BOSS of all music systems

From a audiophile point of view, here are the things that were missing:

1. No center image whatsoever. The whole imaging concept is lost infact. Forget about pointing out instruments during a music, you cant even point out where the vocals are coming from . Its all mixed up within a wide wall of sound...they sounded as if the two speakers are connected out of phase but without any bass cancellation. Now that should obviously irritate a audiophile.

2. The mid-bass was prominent but anything under 100hz was heavily lacking...no extension whatsoever..now even this is a trait an audiophile cant live with.

Tonally they are definitely biased but thats ok as it depends on the person's choice.
For 17.5k a pair, I would consider it to be a serious contender for HT application. They can give you an environment much more surreal than others.

Finally I could conclude that Bose has its own market and they shouldnt brought into the audiophile scenario and bashed left-right. For a commmon man, they get great sound at a price. Remember Bose doesnt require great amplification, cables and sources to sound its near-best, it can sound 90% of its potential with a very mediocre amp also. Here I heard them with Yamaha AX-396 stereo amp (around 12k price) and I never felt the amplification to be cheap. So that adds to its benefits.
Overall they are a consumer product and hence consumer-friendly

i have a bose acoustimass which i use for HT. when I sold my earlier speakers i actually used them as my main speakers with my amp.

I found very good imaging and the disappearing act..no problems there.
the bass pretty good ie averagely tight but very clear till i guess around 50Hz as most bookshelves have.

so it behaved as about any decent bookhelf speaker.

most of the bose showrooms are not really great in speaker placement especiallly for the bass module and the amplifier used by bose is not really very good. (and it cannot be placed jus about anywhere like they claim). may be as imaging is not really their or their prospects concern.
but believe me when i say that they image well!

hence my statement that with a good amp and good placement they are good.. again they are good not Great, but they perhaps have been more villified than they deserve, very similar to microsoft they are a brand the experts love to hate.

there are going to be compromises that they will make if midbass and below are to be separated from the rest and for that they have done pretty well.

again they are targetted at the segment who want to move up from the folks who are moving up from the sonys/kenwoods of the world and for that they have voiced it just right.. for the folks who still enjoy their music with a hipped up treble and bass will love the extra tizz provided by bose which have their 2khz and 200-500 hz notched up

Those are pretty good comments re Bose.
Spot on analysis, Abhi&Arj-thats exactly the way I felt when I first auditioned them 2-3 yrs back at their listening room in Delhi.
And the marketing hype has to be seen to be believed-so slick,with pretty girls out to hypnotise you into swallowing everything they spout out!
They get the audience nodding in agreement in no time flat.
Their demo at that time was primarily into evoking a wide,wide sounstage-so they opened with the action in a soccer stadium, some effects of a bullet train flashing past, some street scenes, and finally, a wee bit of "Unforgettable" by Nat King Cole (heard him?)so,3-4% music rest mainly special effects to dazzle you into pulling out your cheque book on the spot!
Truly a marketing truimph.
But, if people continue to fall for it, who's to condemn Bose?

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi Kamal, Doc, Did you check out the Valve Mini (10 watts/channel) with the Harmony One ? One of my cousins has asked my reccomendation for a good setup (he is not a audiophile)...I thought, lets introduce him to hifi. He listens to all the soft variety of music (English, Hindi etc)...no hard rock for him. Immediately Viren's creation came to my mind....I just have a few issues here: 1. How well the 10 watter handle the Harmony One ? Doesnt have to blast them...but should be solid upto decent loudness levels. Viren says, it can do so...so I am a bit relaxed . But I would be happy to read other forum member's opinions about this. 2. Maintanance of tubes: Since my bro is no Audiophile so neither does he knows about the maintance factors of the tubes nor would he be very enthusiastic about it. Hence I have to research and decide how easy it is to maintain tubes for a non-audiophilic kind of a person. I need your opinions regarding this buddies. Accordingly I will proceed.

Hi Abhi !

In one of my earlier posts about Lyrita Audio I mentioned that these products are reflections of the taste and persona of its designer - Viren - gentleman, soft, balanced and shy of anything that's harsh or hard.

The kind of melodious music that you mentioned, I think Lyrita would be a perfect option - in that budget.

Regarding the original debate here - single Vs. multiple drivers:

I would say that the most impressive thing about Harmony speakers is that despite being a single driver unit they perform with great authority on the frequency spectrum. However, it does not neccessarily mean that single driver speakers are better than multiple drivers (of equivalent quality). I think that single driver just makes it a greater value for money.

When the difference between 4" and 6" drivers is so easily "visible" to the ears - why wont be the difference between sinle & multiple drivers of equivalent quality.

Hi Sanjay,

There is a fundamental difference in design between single full-range and multiple driver speakers. These differences will still be evident regardless of the quality of the individual drivers.

If it were only frequency response, then there would be no difference between speakers. There are other issues, as phase response, integration, transient response. Probably the most damaging thing in multiple driver systems is the electrically splitting up of the music signal, and acoustically recombining it in the room. Can never be perfect - it's amazing that it's good enough as it is!

A lot of single full-range drivers are high sensitivity - what this leads to is a very light weight cone. Now, all materials absorb energy, and release it over time. In speakers that causes time smearing of the music signal. Large drivers have heavier cones, absorb more, and release it over a longer time. Lighter cones absorb less, and reradiate less. That gives more clarity in reproduced sound.

All this contributes to the realism of music reproduction in single full-range speaker systems.

Viren.

However, it does not neccessarily mean that single driver speakers are better than multiple drivers (of equivalent quality).

saying single driver or multiple driver is better is really not possible. i think that one vs the other has certain distinct benefits and drawbacks. it's up to the individual to pick the drawbacks (like lesser bass and extended treble perhaps) he can live with and the strengths (coherency) he can't live without.

Arj schrieb:

i have a bose acoustimass which i use for HT. when I sold my earlier speakers i actually used them as my main speakers with my amp. I found very good imaging and the disappearing act..no problems there. the bass pretty good ie averagely tight but very clear till i guess around 50Hz as most bookshelves have. so it behaved as about any decent bookhelf speaker. most of the bose showrooms are not really great in speaker placement especiallly for the bass module and the amplifier used by bose is not really very good. (and it cannot be placed jus about anywhere like they claim). may be as imaging is not really their or their prospects concern. but believe me when i say that they image well! hence my statement that with a good amp and good placement they are good.. again they are good not Great, but they perhaps have been more villified than they deserve, very similar to microsoft they are a brand the experts love to hate. there are going to be compromises that they will make if midbass and below are to be separated from the rest and for that they have done pretty well. again they are targetted at the segment who want to move up from the folks who are moving up from the sonys/kenwoods of the world and for that they have voiced it just right.. for the folks who still enjoy their music with a hipped up treble and bass will love the extra tizz provided by bose which have their 2khz and 200-500 hz notched up

Buddy Arj,
Looks like you are talking about Bose's Sub-Satt models...I am talking about their 301 Bookshelf speakers. They really dont have any center image concept..its a wide wall of sound with everything coming from everywhere
And they just dont do anything below 100hz...thats what it sounded like with the few familar tracks we auditioned.
But as I said they dissappear and they create an ambience thats really one to die for in an HT setup.
Having 5 301 speakers on all sides and a decent sub + AVR can take the whole thing to a Fairy land.

abhi.pani schrieb:

I am talking about their 301 Bookshelf speakers. They really dont have any center image concept..its a wide wall of sound with everything coming from everywhere

OK but the 201 - 901 range are designed not to image !
they are built on the principle that to simulate a live atmosphere [mid to back of hall] 80% of the sound is reflected and only the rest is directed sound hence the lack of imaging..which actually is very tru of live performances which only do the visual imaging.

these do very well in an HT though !

OK but the 201 - 901 range are designed not to image !

Ya, thats what we noticed..they are simply not made to image and thats one of the reason that we felt that the target consumer is totally different from an Audiophile.

which actually is very tru of live performances which only do the visual imaging.

True for amplified performances...but in an unamplified performance, the instruments are definitely localized.

As you said, most people graduate to Bose from Sonys and Kenwoods and for them this is definite step to another level of music reproduction. I would anyday prefer and reccomend a Bose 301 + Yamaha AX-396 (all for under 30k) than a Sony boom boom compo.

But again as Kamal has mentioned, the whole world goes ga ga about Bose due to its marketing tricks....whats wrong if a micro-tiny segment of Audiophiles go around bashing Bose !! Its natural and its fun

abhi.pani schrieb:

True for amplified performances...but in an unamplified performance, the instruments are definitely localized.

i really find it hard to agree to that unless you are in either a very crowded open air (not sure if that can be done unamplified) or in small jazz bars..or else in those very rare and well designed (acoustically )halls...doubt if there are any in bangalore...apparently on 1 such in mumbai

In the opera concerts where the musicians are not on stage, they actually sit in a pit in front of the stage doubt if you are going to get any direct sound out of that !

A lot depends on where you are seated. near the front (apparently the first (5-6 rows apprently) the percentage of reflected sound is very low. but for the majority of the audience as you move back it just keeps increasing!

in fact in amplified concerts there is more of direct sound depending on the placement of the speakers. In halls where speakers are kept in a row array on the ceilings or walls, most sound is direct ! it is in concerts, usually rock/pop where all those megahorn speakers are in the front that the above holds true

but again it is the dynamics and the realism that makes live music live..imaging in these conditions is actually done by the eyes . the last thing i would be bothered about there is audio imaging ! that is something audio engineers need to do in recordings to give an illusion of live !

regarding bashing bose..I believe it really does not matter to them as their target audience does not really care about those stereo factors which we believe in so much ! and in occasions they have been bothered i thenk they have just litigated

as you and kamal have also mentioned, they found a very lucrative segment of the market and moved in well and have made money on it. the rest of the audiophile groups from the klipschs to the tannoys are also trying to get there now but i think they are a bit too late in this segment !

Hmm..whatever little unamplified performance I have heard has been in larger sized living rooms rather than concert hall hence I would prefer to be silent on that issue. But yes I agree that during a liver performance, imaging is the last thing on one's minds. Its the sheer energy, timbre and dynamics that rule there.

But still in home audio, it looks like imaging has a very high priority may be because your ears have to take over the job of your eyes as well. So in a home environment it still looks like you need good imaging to realize something real and live.
The magic in home audio still rests on the shoulders of good imaging, dynamics, speakers dissappearing and ofcourse tone/timbre(without which hifi is all but hifi).

abhi.pani schrieb:

But again as Kamal has mentioned, the whole world goes ga ga about Bose due to its marketing tricks....whats wrong if a micro-tiny segment of Audiophiles go around bashing Bose !! Its natural and its fun :D

Even audiophiles go ga-ga over brands...just the names are different.

Infact ...i think the audiophiles get ripped-off (in terms of magnitude of money being charged as premium) more than someone buying a bose system

So it is not correct to bash any specific brand....different people like different things - period

Regards
Siva.

abhi.pani schrieb:

But still in home audio, it looks like imaging has a very high priority may be because your ears have to take over the job of your eyes as well. .

very true hence the importance of the recording engineer in mixing the tracks such tha spatial imaging of the instruments happen well.. they are perhaps the less celebrated artists in the chain

sivat schrieb:

Infact ...i think the audiophiles get ripped-off (in terms of magnitude of money being charged as premium) more than someone buying a bose system

so very true vfm is so very very subjective and the brand plays such an important and highly varying part in it !!

so much that the "house sound" of some brands have really no relevance these days, it is only brand name !

Even audiophiles go ga-ga over brands...just the names are different. Infact ...i think the audiophiles get ripped-off (in terms of magnitude of money being charged as premium) more than someone buying a bose system So it is not correct to bash any specific brand....different people like different things - period

I think its not a brand that audiophiles bash, its actually the product associated with the brand which they bash.
Something like a die-hard sports bike fan will more often than not bash a cruiser, an SUV fan will more often than not bash Sedans...there are many such examples where people hate a brand just because it doesnt cater to the needs of those people...Bose being a representative of a typical non-audiophilic style of speakers, gets bashed by the audiophiles....somehow I believe its natural.

Regarding getting ripped off, yes its true that even audiophiles get ripped off in the name of brand but Bose is something that audiophiles wont even accept for free (pun intended) so they find it to be bigger rip-off to buy Bose at such prices.