Active vs Passive speakers

Dear Sonnic Master,

You perhaps need to define what an Active Speaker & what a passive speaker is all about, for the benifit of all.

Regards,

Junia.

I Think many would've not heard Active speakers as they are as rare as plutonium....some names like Mackie are often seen in bowling clubs,pubs...

2 of the most known active speakers are perhaps ATC and PMC. both make wonderfully neutral actives.

JMlab has a Pro version of active studio monitors and till last year so did Dynaudio.

Actives offer lots of advantages in having well matched and bi/tri -amped systems with the right gains at each driver. but Audiophiles do not ususally prefer it as it gives them less options of playing around with Amps in getting the sound the way they want it.
(the same being the case with CDP player + Pre amps.)

One of the classic actives has been the Paradigm Active 40 which was an amazingly "highend at a low price" speaker but did not do well due to the above reason. even now if a rare one ever appears on ebay it is snapped up pretty quickly


IMHO ATC Active 12 might be one of the best of the lot now..Although I do remember seeing quite a few Active Quad 11s at audiogon as well.

As an afterthought, i think even the AvantGarde Solo could be added to this although it is frightfully expensive

My personal preference would be an passive speaker, due to practical reason as highlighted by Arj.

In my opinion Amps play an very important role in deciding the overall tonality/color of a given setup. Good amps come at good price(from the seller's perspective, and bad price from consumer perspective) price. So in my opinion it is better to have one good amp, rather than multiple not-so-good amps.

The biggest advantage of an active speaker, is that you can get the flattest frequency response, which is quite not possible with an passive crossover based loudspeaker...due to inherent techninal/theoritcal issues.

So between technical perfection and tonality of a setup...i would prefer getting the tonality of my choice and would not mind a few technical glithces.

Then again...this is only my preference. I have come across few people with PMC/Bryston active combo...and they seem to love it.

Cheers
Siva.

Other than real prfessional Active spks from PMC/BRYSTON & ATC, even LINN have come out with speakers like the KOMRI, ARTIKULTE etc that can be bought in a ACTIVE or PASSIVE version.

The ultimate solution is active, but for that you need a lot of money & as SIva mentioned that the only disadvantage is that you are stuck with the amps and cannot do much.

IMHO I too would love to go in for a fully active set-up but still prefer the passive way. Many years back I heard a full activer NAIM set-up which was out of the world in all matters and yes costed a bomb too.

Rgds

Prithvi

I too, had the good fortune of listening to a completely active Naim set up many years back.It sounded totally awesome.

BTW are there any Naim fans among you ?...they are not distributed here I suppose...

K

Hi,

The biggest advantage in going active is that each speaker driver is driven directly from the output stage of the power amp. No crossover components inbetween to cause losses, phase and time delays. If the amp is up to it, this gives the best control on the driver.

However, there is no free lunch. The crossover has moved to the preamp, where tighter toleranced low-current components are used, often ICs. Who says ICs don't introduce phase errors. Any feedback circuit, which all ICs employ, has to take care of gain and phase margins. Another one of those compromises in audio!

"If the amp is up to it!" As people above have written, the synergy between the amp and the speaker is what produces beautiful sound. Can't compromise on the amp. That makes six of them in a triamped system. Expensive!

There is another way to get that beautiful control between amp and speaker driver. Get a single full-range speaker driver, and connect an amp directly to it!

But that's another story!

Viren.

Yes Viren
Ur right about the amps, very imp. Heard the Naim tri-amped system was very well controlled and amazing. Heard a full LINN ACTIVE 6 amps per side driving the LINN KOMRI's (6 way) in Singapore. All amps were the LINN REF mono amps. No words to describe it, just plain anyone travelling to Singapore go to Adelphi & hear them at the LINN dealer there. Awesome,

Regarding the Single full range driver with a amp direct, A good combo will be a nice horn loaded spk with a SET amp, but then that is another story totally.

Rgds

Prithvi

viren schrieb:

There is another way to get that beautiful control between amp and speaker driver. Get a single full-range speaker driver, and connect an amp directly to it! But that's another story! Viren.

Man,
Recently I had the opportunity to spend an afternoon with single full-range driver speaker from Rethm. It was the Rethm the second at the manufacturer’s studio. I totally agree with you. It was the most natural sound I have ever heard in my life……..period ! There is something very special in the single modified Lowther driver in that cross-over less design……..enchanting is the right word !
For the uninitiated check out the website here-
http://www.rethm.com/

viren schrieb:

There is another way to get that beautiful control between amp and speaker driver. Get a single full-range speaker driver, and connect an amp directly to it! Viren.

Or else go to Crossoverless speakers like the Reference 3a speakers.. De Capo and Dulcet

Hi,

The DeCapo and Dulcet are not true crossover-less speakers.
The bass/midrange driver is driven direct (no crossover elements), the tweeter has a first-order 6dB/octave crossover - a single capacitor.

But, about as simple as you get. Since the bass/midrange driver covers about 75% of the musical range, it comes close to a single full-range driver. It does call for a very well behaved driver.

This concept is not new. Mordaunt-Short used to design their speakers this way, and, if I'm not mistaken, so were some of the Epos designs. And they were highly regarded.

By the way, this is the design used in all Lyrita Audio speakers. The woofers are driven direct, the tweeter has a second-order crossover.

Viren.

Viren,

Interesting to know about your speaker crossover implementation.....But these so called "well behaved drivers" are not very easy to find I would think....from the top I would tend to think that good polypropylene or paper mid/bass drivers would be the place to start due to their inherent damping characteristics and gentle roll off ? Ofcourse one also needs to make sure that cone breakup is minimal/gentle at the higher end of the sound spectrum and is sufficiently damped/muted by the natural roll off characteristics of the driver.....

What would the frequency response chart of such a driver(maybe even your driver) look like ? Can you point me in the right direction ? If I remember right you do make your own drivers...dont you ? what about the tweeters ?

Manek.

Manek,

You've already pointed out quite accurately the characteristics required of a "well behaved driver". The roll-off has to be smooth, without the peakiness shown by most drivers before they roll-off. By 1000 Hz, almost all bass/mid drivers are in break-up mode already, so the self-damping of the cone has to be good. Contributing to both is the termination of the cone - the surround. They work as a system, absorbing energy travelling down the cone, and preventing reflections back to the cone.

In designing crossovers, what is important is the overall acoustic roll-off, a combination of the electrical characteristics of the external crossover and the natural roll-off of the driver. If the natural roll-off comes close to the desired acoustic roll-off, you don't need the external crossover.

Polypropylene cones do show very good self-damping behaviour, and some excellent drivers are made with these cones. Paper cones are also inherently self-damping, but their roll-off behaviour has to be controlled by special formulations and coatings. These are invariably proprietory.

An advantage paper cones have is their low hysteresis - the ability to store less energy, and release stored energy quickly. This contributes to clarity in sound, and improved dynamics.

I was lucky enough to befriend the owner of Bolton Pvt. Ltd., J.S. Monga, one of the oldest speaker driver manufacturers in India. A true gentleman, and a music lover to boot (unfortunately, he expired just recently). In my attempt to indigenise my products, Monga mentioned he had some paper cones sourced from Japan that he would like me to try out. Well, after a year-and-a-half of development efforts (could be called R&D), I have what I feel are an excellent range of drivers.

I run the bass/midrange drivers full range. They cross over to the tweeter at a high frequency between 5 -7 kHz, depending on the driver. Since one driver is covering the entire bass and midrange, you enjoy the benefits of single driver loudspeakers - an openness to the sound, clarity and better dynamics.

As you may have gathered from my earlier posts, I am not one of the flat measurement school. I feel the 1-metre frequency response measurements do not accurately depict the sound of the speaker that you hear. The 1-metre distance does not allow full integration of multiple drivers on a baffle. A more accurate measurement would be at 2- or 3-metres. It is extremely difficult to do measurements at those distances without room effects clouding the response. So, I measure at 1-metre, then simulate the response to 3-metres, and then adjust the crossover to get the smooth, even response I want.

All fine tuning is then done by ear, listening to good music!

Viren.

2 years ago at a Mumbai exhibition, I came across an active Sonodyne flrs speaker. Can you please explain. How does one connect an active speaker? Directly to the DVD player or to the preamp? Is only power amps built into active speakers?

oh my god. Dear Neutral like if one likes to connect the active crossover before preamp then...oooooh for example a three way system will be having about 3 preamps + 3 x 2 channel power amp... hmmm like Prithvi Said it costs about two bombs but I dont think anybody tries this setup? coz cost man and upgrading problem.... In genaral the Active crossover is connected after preamp stage. But man one need to get involved in building the system like anyting for the 3 preamp and 3 x 2 channel power amp setup.

Probably I am going to release a active setup but I may choose 2 way system because of its advantages...

cheers,
Sandeep

viren,

crossing at 5-7khz..wow ! that should be stretching the drivers to the limit

thanks for the explanation.....just one more question....do both your drivers roll off acoustically by the same degree ?
Is the acoustical tweeter low end rolloff the same as the acoustical high end roll off of the mid/bass driver ? I would assume that you would target atleast a 2nd order acoustic rolloff for both drivers ? or is the roll off on both drivers assymetric ? maybe 6 db/octave for the mid/bass and 12 for the tweeter ?

Manek.

Manek,

The acoustic roll-offs are close, but not similar. The bass/midrange drivers start their rolloff at 12dB/octave, then drop to 18dB. The smoothest overall response I have got is with a 12dB/octave electrical crossover on the tweeter.

Earlier, I was using the Bolton fabric-dome tweeters. However, the Vifa fabric-dome tweeters are superior, and I am using them in my floor-standing models. The Vifa tweeters are probably the best value around today. And I am partial to fabric-dome tweeters for their smoother sound.

Viren.

viren schrieb:

And I am partial to fabric-dome tweeters for their smoother sound. Viren.

That makes two of us.

Viren, How do you get the Mid driver to reach all the way upto 7 KHz. Is it a small driver? Doesn't it naturally roll off before that point? Or is it a special driver designed for full-range sound production?