Amplification for your needs

I have heard good examples of all of them so can’t really say which is best. It is all a matter of taste. I guess the biggest divide in audio is Tube vs Solidstate. An ideal amplification for me would be the best Valve preamp and the best Class A solid state I can afford. So that makes it hybrid.

My vote to SS Class A since that is what I own and have come to love

But a Hybrid with a Tube Pre and a SS Class A POwer section is i feel the best of all worlds :). WOuld love to have a Croft or a Manley as an active pre..

to me a Power section as a Tube..unless it is a SET (Like the delicious Sun Audio amp) is difficult to manage..espacially due to some pre-concieved notions on longitivity of tubes which may or may not hold water in reality

Class AB is best taking economy into consideration. The extra heat from Class A would send the airconditioning bills through the roof (give a high-power amp and a hot climate like Chennai's).

However, Class AB's have non-linearities due to switching on and off. Class A is sonically better but not affordable for most folks. Maybe the first 3W in Class A would be a good compromise.

Tubes may have lower higher-order distortion but reliability and servicing are issues.

Arj schrieb:

to me a Power section as a Tube..unless it is a SET (Like the delicious Sun Audio amp) is difficult to manage..espacially due to some pre-concieved notions on longitivity of tubes which may or may not hold water in reality

Arj, a question: if there is a PRE-CONCEIVED notion on the longevity of tubes that MAY NOT hold water, then, why do you believe that managing output power tubes is/could be an issue esp. for your location where power output tubes are quite easily available?

Neutral schrieb:

Tubes may have lower higher-order distortion but reliability and servicing are issues.

based on what experience of yours?
OR, is it another PRE-CONCEIVED notion of yours like Arj's?

Sorry Bombaywalla, no personal experiences whatsoever
However, from what I have read, tube amps need regular biasing. Again, based on my reading, their service lives are shorter. They are less tolerant of voltage fluctuations as they use step-up transformers.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any point, Sir.

Neutral schrieb:

Sorry Bombaywalla, no personal experiences whatsoever However, from what I have read, tube amps need regular biasing. Again, based on my reading, their service lives are shorter. They are less tolerant of voltage fluctuations as they use step-up transformers. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any point, Sir.

Neutral,
re. the biasing - a decent tube amp will have biasing potentiometers easily accessible by the user & whenever new tubes are inserted, they do need to be biased. Checking the bias once every 6 months is a good idea but it is not necessary to adjust the bias unless it has drifted.
If the bias has drifted, it could be several reasons & one of them is that the output tube is going bad. Good tubes do not allow their bias to drift.

Re. service life - yes it is shorter than preamp/small-signal tubes but if properly biased a power tube can give you 18-24 months of service. Maybe even more.

Re. tolerance to voltage fluctuations - I don't know who told you that they use step-up xformers!!!
that makes no sense at all!
The power xformer is made for the country the amp is made for & so it will be designed for 120V or 240V, etc directly. The output xformers are merely passive coupling & impedance xformation devices.

Ideally bias needs to be adjusted every month.

My present sonic thirst would be quenched by a good quality SS integrated. After a while I might crave for SS separates or Int Valve. Still later I might crave for Tube Pre & SS Power or SS Pre with SS Power Biamp. Later I would be Tube Pre and Tube Power Biamp. And after that?...
.... I wonder if I'd have life or money left for anything else...

Basically "yeh dil maange more"

Regards

Sanjay

Class AB1 SS (or Tube) offers the best bang for bucks. You need very fine ears to differentiate between a well-built Class AB and Class A amp. At least to my fading hearing the difference is zero.

Right now my main amplifier is an EL84 PP biased at Class AB1 and I can hardly notice any difference.

Neutral-ji and Sdhawan-ji:
Operating a tube at around 75% of its plate dissipation will probably keep it going forever. Tubes are a hardy lot. If you mistakenly feed 500 volts dc to a 250 volts max rated tube, it will only glow a bit more brighter during the period you are doing the fool drudgery. Try that with a pair of BJT or MOSFET and see how quickly you are rewarded with that meltdown smell.

if your tubes require rebiasing every month then something is drastically wrong with them or the amplifier. I don’t know about the new production tubes, but the old European, US or Indian BEL tubes are very stable. A freash pair of tube will drift slightly during the burn-in period. Thereafter it should hold a steady bias. I have measured bias on EL34’s after several years of operation and found just 3mA~6mA of drift. Even upto 20% of tube mismatching will not produce a hearable sonic degradation although you can see it in a spectrum analyzer. FWIW a typically pair of loudspeakers may have a greater mismatch.

I received a pair of well-used QUAD II monoblock in 2004. This pair was made in early 60’s and came with the original set of valves. When I tested the tube for emission I was surprised to note that all the KT66 output valves tested almost 80% strong. This was quite astonishing. Can’t say if a pair of BJT or MOSFET can live that long.

I think we can already see signs of Tueb versus solid state camps appearing here....

Bombaywalla, i assume ur biased towards tube amps..well for me the class A solid state rules..

Class AB when done right can come very clsoe to Class A..so yes..practicality makes me lean towards Solid State though i must admit i haven't heard a tube power amp..only a tube pre. and a DAC with a Tube analog out..

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I think we can already see signs of Tueb versus solid state camps appearing here....

No, I do not think that we are seeing a polarization as yet! I hope that we do not (this group in this forum is far politer than other groups I'm a member of) because this can get VERY, VERY ugly!

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Bombaywalla, i assume ur biased towards tube amps..well for me the class A solid state rules..

no, again! I have a few systems-one is a hybrid with tube preamp & a class-AB mono power amps, a 2nd which has a tube integrated & a 3rd which is complete solid-state. I can see what tubes do for me & I can see what s.s. can do for me. AFAIK, I've each system optimized for the task & am reaping each technology's best. (of course, each system can be taken to a higher plane with additional tweaks).

Savyasaachi schrieb:

....though i must admit i haven't heard a tube power amp..only a tube pre. and a DAC with a Tube analog out..

If possible, I would strongly urge you to change this situation. You won't regret it!
s.s. is definitely convenient esp. in India. However, there are very few s.s. amps worth owning & listening to. IMHO.
Like I said, I'm on both sides of the argument since I own both types of power amps!

tube amp all the way. a solid state quite hurts my ears now. i find a tube amp breathes life into the music. though a solid state has more slam bang.

No vote!

Not bothered about class A or AB bias.

Tube v/s SS yes there is difference and the choice depends on speakers used as well as type of music that i prefer to listen to.

IMHO i have noticed that the difference in tonal quality between some tube amps and SS amps have reduced. Tubes sounding like SS and SS sounding like tubes !!

ani schrieb:

IMHO i have noticed that the difference in tonal quality between some tube amps and SS amps have reduced. Tubes sounding like SS and SS sounding like tubes !!

Could you please throw more light on this??

square_wave schrieb:

I have heard good examples of all of them so can’t really say which is best. It is all a matter of taste. I guess the biggest divide in audio is Tube vs Solidstate. An ideal amplification for me would be the best Valve preamp and the best Class A solid state I can afford. So that makes it hybrid.

Ditto here...
But based on some readings and discussions, I guess that its not easy to mate Tube-Pre to SS Power...dont know how far is it true though...but if it mates, it should sound Magical I believe.
Truly speaking I am yet to hear a well implemented tube equipment...hence cant comment on how they sound.

Shahrukh schrieb:

ani schrieb: IMHO i have noticed that the difference in tonal quality between some tube amps and SS amps have reduced. Tubes sounding like SS and SS sounding like tubes !! Could you please throw more light on this??

closest Tube sounding SSs i have heard are Lavardin, sugden and to some extent the AA puccini. i guess it has technically to do with presence of 2nd order harmonic distortion.


Tubes sounding like "SS" hmm..other than a Lamm i had heard quite some time back cannot really remember anythinhg else..although a Nagra, from what i hear, might come close.

bombaywalla schrieb:

Arj, a question: if there is a PRE-CONCEIVED notion on the longevity of tubes that MAY NOT hold water, then, why do you believe that managing output power tubes is/could be an issue esp. for your location where power output tubes are quite easily available?

I agree on this and have been explained the same many times..in fact many russian fighterplanes used to use tubes since they do not give up under electromagnetic pulses/fields (would be interesting to try and see a pilot change valves mid flight;) )

call me prudish..but somehow tubes glowing etc etc in hifi just do not do it visually for me.. also the worry of keeping it safe from peeking/poking children;; (I have a very very curious 3 year old and even more curious nephew )

sound wise..i am not one of the neutral accuracy school of thought and like looking at a painting more than a photograph (Although I prefer photography to doing a painting..), an prefer a coloured tubey sound..and thats why I have an SS "Tube" amp !

so Yes I do have a tube "Bias" (Pun intended) but no concrete evidence of why.


yeah tube availabiity is not too much of a problem here in paris..but I do not intend to be around for too long et je préférerais être en Inde

screamgigi schrieb:

Class AB1 SS (or Tube) offers the best bang for bucks. You need very fine ears to differentiate between a well-built Class AB and Class A amp. At least to my fading hearing the difference is zero.

gigi-ji, (YOu are too polite to have a screaming in front of you ) agree with you on that..

I guess, as in most things engineering, implementation is more important than theory.

yes a good class AB can sound better than a not so good Class A,
a good NOS DAC will sound better than a not so good Upsampling one..
a good Single drivever full range can be better than a multi driver..etc etc

Somehow we get too caught in the various design factors to actually judge by sound which actually should be topmost priority..and how it matches to what we really like and not what the reviewer or magazine or what even people who influence our hobby likes.

ani wrote: IMHO i have noticed that the difference in tonal quality between some tube amps and SS amps have reduced. Tubes sounding like SS and SS sounding like tubes !! Could you please throw more light on this??

IMHO the McIntoch Amps demonstrate this very well !

The company makes both, SS and Tube equipment.

The SS sounds more 'tuby' ... romantic & rolled off, than the Tube versions !

I heard the A-B at the McIntoch dealer in Spore, last year.

Similar coment in the current Stereophile, reviewing their Statement 2 ( or should I say 3 ) box Pre amp.

The pre amp has a separate 'Control Centre' and a choice of the 2nd box as SS or Tube amplification stages.

Incidentally, the Chinese now own the company...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Incidentally, the Chinese now own the company... :.

they are making great inroads into audio these days !

BTW on a very different note Klipsh has taken over API (I think) they own Energy/Mirage.. last yer thay had acqauired Jamo.

Martin Logans have also sold out ..I think to a chinese co.. and we already know about Quad/Wharfedale/Mission and Cyrus.

I guess this sort of consolidation is good for the industry..it is Tooo fragmented for its own good !

hmmmm martin logan too ?????? thats news to me.

The chinese sure are on an aquisition spree. First they manufactured, now they buy out the brands !

Yep, consolidation is good to a point. Dont want a monopoly situation though.

Manek.

Manek schrieb:

hmmmm martin logan too ?????? thats news to me.

I am not that sure now.. I know they have been rather recently taken over..but do not remember by whom !

What’s up with these Chinese fellas ? They own half the hi-fi brands now Don’t know if it is good for hifi though

I feel it is very good.. you would be surprised at the number of chinese audiophiles.. they have been a big traditional Harbeth/spendor and LP market. in fact harbet still sells the most in China/taiwan/japan than ROW !

the affordability/build quality and the range they have brought into audio has been really great.

at least cos like IAG do not want to mess about with the original design and only want to keep the brand/niche alive .. I feel that is very good.

in fact might bring about moe innovation in audio as the america/european cos will be challenged to innovate.
I am very intersted as to how the Indian cos will make a mark..

I have a power amp thats supposed to operate at A upto 35 wpc and then switch to AB at higher ratings. It runs really hot. Dont know how these things work anyway!
Have an old Carver SS integrated which sounds (according to most who have heard it) very tubey.
Am a bit worried about using Valves in India maybe preconcieved as b'walla says..but would like to try a very very good valve pre one day.

Jeeves schrieb:

Have an old Carver SS integrated which sounds (according to most who have heard it) very tubey.

That comes in the "never let go of " category of components. supposedly solid gold in performance and not very common in the used market .

That comes in the "never let go of " category of components. supposedly solid gold in performance and not very common in the used market .

Just like the older sugdens and Musical fidelity class A amps.. MF A's are just too good and sound so good that it's hard to find a SS amp today yet to beat them..

I have a power amp thats supposed to operate at A upto 35 wpc and then switch to AB at higher ratings. It runs really hot. Dont know how these things work anyway!

A Class B Amplifier draws current from the Power Supply, in accordance with the input signal and delivers it to the Loudspeaker. No Signal, no current drawn.

A Class A Amplifier, Continiously draws FULL Current ( ie current required to deliver the rated power into the loudspeaker ) ALL the time. Whatever is required by the speaker ( depending on the signal) is sent to the speaker, the rest is Junked as heat. If there is no signal, the full power drawn is junked as heat.

A Class AB amplifier, is made to draw a standing current ( usually small ) so that even with zero signal, the Amplifier never goes to sleep, or Cuts off.

In your case, the amp is sup[posed to continiously draw current enough to deliver 35 Watts of power, continiously... Signal or no signal.

If the demand increases beyond 35 Watts, it draws the extra, as required, from the power supply.

Almost ALL AMPLIFICATION stages in almost ALL amplifiers, are operated in CLASS A ( even in a transistor radio), except the output stage.

So the CLASS A stage is not something esoteric...,. Its normal, execpt where high output power is to be delivered.

Hope this helps.

can add the pass labs 0.5 (I think), adcom 555.. there use to be a classic parasound model as well but do not remember it..

all of the above come under thz "warm"category..i think it was after these that the accuracy theme came into vogue and tonal accuracy was apparently transmogrified

Thanks Amp Nut.
The manual suggests turning off the amp when no music is being played.

.... to save the unnecessary heating of the amp.

It will be dissipating over 100Watts idling...

[quote="SUB_BOSS"]
Just like the older sugdens and Musical fidelity class A amps.. MF A's are just too good and sound so good that it's hard to find a SS amp today yet to beat them..[/quote]

Really!!!!
you have got to be kidding.....
I think that you need your ears cleaned if you find Musical Fidelity amps so good that they are unbeatable by any other s.s. amp!!

The Sugden, I agree.

Really!!!! you have got to be kidding..... I think that you need your ears cleaned if you find Musical Fidelity amps so good that they are unbeatable by any other s.s. amp!!

When we talk of other int SS amps it's amps in and around the price of purchasing a used MF( FYI 'A' series are out of production )
MF A series are considered to be better sounding than int amps today and I have come to conclusion after conducting many listening tests and found it be very musical and open...So if you feel I need my ears cleaned I strongly feel you to them listen first before you jump into conclusions..

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

When we talk of other int SS amps it's amps in and around the price of purchasing a used MF( FYI 'A' series are out of production ) MF A series are considered to be better sounding than int amps today and I have come to conclusion after conducting many listening tests and found it be very musical and open...So if you feel I need my ears cleaned I strongly feel you to them listen first before you jump into conclusions..

SUB_BOSS, you are talking about the A32cr MF amp & amps that were released in that same time-frame, correct?

Yes, I've listened to those & I didn't not think much of them. They had an initial "wow" factor & they seemed better for rock music (which is usually recorded w/ a lot of compression & distortion). However, after some time I got tired/fatigued w/ their "same sound" delivery. They were also heavy on the bass (too much "boom-boom" bass) to the point of skewing the sound in that direction.
I found that the Sugden (as you suggested), the Parasound HCA series, Portal Panache to name a few to sound far better & even-handed. FWIW.

sub is talking of the MF A1.. that was a pure class A amp.. a precurser to the later A100s and the the not so hot MF B1 s.. the X series is in some warped logical way a continuation (And degradation) of the original.


i believe anthony M was more consumer/sound oriented then than his fly by night models these days..

The A1 was really good although it did had heat problems with difficult loads

but these days MF is really really sad

Arj schrieb:

sub is talking of the MF A1.. that was a pure class A amp.. a precurser to the later A100s and the the not so hot MF B1 s.. the X series is in some warped logical way a continuation (And degradation) of the original. i believe anthony M was more consumer/sound oriented then than his fly by night models these days.. The A1 was really good although it did had heat problems with difficult loads but these days MF is really really sad :{

OK, I see!
If it's the A1 model SUB_BOSS is talking about, I've not heard it nor the A100.
I stand corrected, SUB_BOSS.

According to me MF has been really sad for the last 6 years (& maybe more for you guys who followed his models even further back in time). His A model DAC from about 4 years ago was pretty sad too sonically.

bombaywalla schrieb:

According to me MF has been really sad for the last 6 years (& maybe more for you guys who followed his models even further back in time). His A model DAC from about 4 years ago was pretty sad too sonically.

Completely agree...

OK, I see! If it's the A1 model SUB_BOSS is talking about, I've not heard it nor the A100. I stand corrected, SUB_BOSS.

Yes Dear Bombaywalla I'm talking of A1, A100, A120 and 1000 ( i think so)..are all class A are very good for VFM and sound very very warm with good tight lows , smooth mids and silky highs.

The A1 was really good although it did had heat problems with difficult loads

A1 is very small , but A100 and bigger A120 have no problems..

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

and sound very very warm with good tight lows , smooth mids and silky highs. ;)

I really wish we had better terms to describe SQ

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

A1 is very small , but A100 and bigger A120 have no problems.. ;)

Aah..but it is rated as an all time classic in terms of sound quality. in trying to fix the heat problem there was some compromise on design..

In reality the A1 was not Pure class A. it was a high bias Class AB deisign with the bias as as high as 8W in class A

A100 , i believe had a lower bias?? but am not reall sure bit it is after the A100R (If i remember right that things really went down the drain..)

Sub, in your case, your power need will never ever be above 5-6W unless you want to enetertain the inhabitants of the dozen buildings around you at the expense of your eardrums and bone marrow..so YOu will only hear class A..