What do you look for in a loudspeaker?

Dude since we two didn't come across points earlier I don't want sparks again so I will refrain from posting on this thread but read it regularly to find out what our dear memebers have to vote for...

What do you look for in a music component?

what do you mean by that??

sub this no private party my dear friend so do come across with your views.

powersupply schrieb:

What do you look for in a music component? what do you mean by that??

It can be anything like speakers, amps or source. I know the biggest and loudest does not apply to source equipment so please excuse.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Dude since we two didn't come across points earlier I don't want sparks again so I will refrain from posting on this thread but read it regularly to find out what our dear memebers have to vote for...

Sub, please do vote or let me know your views on the post.
Even I got carried away in the earlier thread. Sorry for that.
Hey this is just a small exercise to sense the general trend among the members. Nothing to have sparks flying about. If the post needs any change, pls do suggest.

Hey this is just a small exercise to sense the general trend among the members

Here I go I have voted for the first option..I atleast got a chance to get close to what we all dream by voting...but I think most of them are going fo option 1 which makes it easier for us..

If the post needs any change, pls do suggest.

It looks perfect ......

hmm.. slightly difficult for me to put in.

CDP: definitely cleanest/natural sounding (Option 1)
Speakers: Something which makes my foot tap (Option 4)
Amp: Something which can drive the speakers better to achieve foot tapping (Option 4)
cables: (Option 2)

I have edited the poll to include only loudspeakers. I guess we can’t have a single poll which encompasses the entire chain looking at ARJ’s post.

I have edited the poll to include only loudspeakers. I guess we can’t have a single poll which encompasses the entire chain looking at ARJ’s post.

Then I think I can't vote but..here's how I want it in order....

1.The cleanest and most natural for the given budget
2.Anything that makes me tap my foot
and last..........
..I like metal music too so they gotta sound like metal..oh yeah without the above characteristics in two options it isn't even faintly enjoyable...

If the first option is met, your last criterion is automatically done. A natural, clean sounding speaker will give you the metallic sound, if it is in the recording.

BEAUTY vs ACCURACY ?

Clearly the forum is divided on the topic.

Last night I read a Great piece by Laurence Borden in the March 2005 Issue of Stereophile - "Truth vs Beauty"

He was comparing a belt drive CD transport vs a conventional CD transport. He also spoke about a comparision between Wilson & Sonus Faber speakers.

Similar analogies could be drawn in Solid State vs Tubes... etc.

I recall more than 30 years ago, I heard the B&W 801 AND the KEF 105 ( both in their 1st avtaars ). At that time these were Both Statement speakers, amongst the best that the market had to offer ( they cost a HUGE Rs 35K then ! and US $ 1 was Rs 12 !! )

To me, the KEFs were accurate... and little else.... I think "clinical' would be a good description.

The B&Ws were warm ( and therefore less acurate ( ? ) but Far more involving and musical. I preferred the B&Ws....

An interesting comment in the Stereophile article is :

" the difference between Beauty & accuracy is not so clear cut. In all true beauty there is accuracy and in all true accuracy, there is beauty "

I also recall reading the signature line on this forum
" It aint nothing, if it aint got swing ! "

amp nut...

That signature line is .......

Maneck,

Thanks for the correction ...

Cheers

Yes amp_nut. This one thing has fascinated or rather bothered me for some time now. I some how get the feeling that we are not measuring the right stuff in audio equipment. I have listened to a dynaudio/bryston combo along side proacs connected to MF power amp and a tube pre-amp. The dynaudio/bryston combo will any day measure better if we do it the conventional way but it was the other combo which made me want to sit and listen to the music. It involved me better and moved me closer to the music. The other one was good but something was missing which made it sound a bit cold.

square_wave schrieb:

Yes amp_nut. This one thing has fascinated or rather bothered me for some time now.

dont worry too much on this.. there has been a Subjectivists Vs Objectivists thing going on in audio who argue on that very basis nat every opportunity whether it be loudpseakers or Power chords
A photograph can be checked for accuracy and conformance in terms of texture form etc with the original subject but to do so for a painting would be rather silly..

A little analogy..
so you need to decide whether you are looking for a photograph which gives you exact facts or a painting with a little bit of artistic license thrown in as the painters signature

I like the painting to resemble the subject very well but if it a painter i like, i would prefer he thorws his shades to make the paiting better (After all in most cases i have not seen the subject !)

[quote="Arj
A little analogy..
so you need to decide whether you are looking for a photograph which gives you exact facts or a painting with a little bit of artistic license thrown in as the painters signature

I like the painting to resemble the subject very well but if it a painter i like, i would prefer he thorws his shades to make the paiting better (After all in most cases i have not seen the subject !)[/quote]

Good one Arj... u seem to hit the nail on the head most times..(even with ur signature)!!

square_wave schrieb:

If the first option is met, your last criterion is automatically done. A natural, clean sounding speaker will give you the metallic sound, if it is in the recording.

I beg to differ buddy Square_wave...Its not always that a natural and clean sounding speaker does everything right viz metal, classical etc etc...No it doesnt happen that way.

I remember listening to a Quad 22L which I suppose is a very clean sounding speaker. It did Jagjit Singh so well but as soon as I put in a Metallica or a Dire Straits it was terrible to say the least. Cant listen to it even for 10 mins at a stretch. I couldnt believe that a speaker costing 75k can sound so bad. But it happens. So it really doesnt go with your theory that a clean and natural sounding speaker can do everything well

So I have gone for the 4th option. Atleast it minimizes your chance to go wrong.

abhi,
I never said that quad is a natural and clean sounding speaker. You only said so in your post.

“Clean and natural” means as accurate and musical you can get within a certain budget. Usually speakers belonging to this category will try to get it as clean as possible within the permissible limits of physics and cost. It won’t accentuate anything to make it sound great with a certain kind of music and fare very bad with others. But if you compare a clean speaker to one that is voiced for metal with metal music, naturally the one voiced for metal will win. There is nothing wrong in that. Most speakers are generally voiced to sound great with a certain kind of music/audience in mind to capture that part of the market share.

our friend square wave has hit the right note above. in fact Abhi, my experience with Quad was the same as above (with a rotel or a nad amp) it can do vocals etc really well but is not able to play out sounds with complicated bass. if you have a drums + bass guitar going dynamic it struggles but it can do vocals etc quite well..

so it is one of the most clean sounding within its limits of bass..and of course within its budget. expecting it to sound as good or better than a Dyn 52 would of course be unfair as the latter is cleaner in its midrange and with very good bass.

square_wave schrieb:

abhi, I never said that quad is a natural and clean sounding speaker. You only said so in your post. “Clean and natural” means as accurate and musical you can get within a certain budget. Usually speakers belonging to this category will try to get it as clean as possible within the permissible limits of physics and cost. It won’t accentuate anything to make it sound great with a certain kind of music and fare very bad with others. But if you compare a clean speaker to one that is voiced for metal with metal music, naturally the one voiced for metal will win. There is nothing wrong in that. Most speakers are generally voiced to sound great with a certain kind of music/audience in mind to capture that part of the market share.

arj schrieb:

our friend square wave has hit the right note above. in fact Abhi, my experience with Quad was the same as above (with a rotel or a nad amp) it can do vocals etc really well but is not able to play out sounds with complicated bass. if you have a drums + bass guitar going dynamic it struggles but it can do vocals etc quite well.. so it is one of the most clean sounding within its limits of bass..and of course within its budget. expecting it to sound as good or better than a Dyn 52 would of course be unfair as the latter is cleaner in its midrange and with very good bass.

So, basically its very dificult to IDENTIFY a natural sounding speaker ??
Whats your take on Cadence line up ? Are they all-rounders ?

I have never heard tham.. only heard Of them. but its electrostats is something i really plan to seriously audition.

everyone who has told be about them has only raved about the sound..

abhi.pani schrieb:

So, basically its very dificult to IDENTIFY a natural sounding speaker ??

So its better to stick with the ones that make u tap your feet.. right Abhi?

If things were so easy then this hobby would not be so interesting would it

this is wat makes it exciting.. the more time you spend the better trained you are at this

nimz schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: So, basically its very dificult to IDENTIFY a natural sounding speaker ?? So its better to stick with the ones that make u tap your feet.. right Abhi?

Ya Nimz, I found that to be a more effective way to judge audio components. Though its good to get a bit critcal while evaluating the product but in the end, you should just take a look at your FEET to see whether its tapping or not..

It gives you the picture to whether you were enjoying all the while or just analyzing..

Continuing on Abhi;s comments.. thot this wll be relevant.. this is frm the reading prescribed by Arj's in another thread..

this is by Wes@onhifi.com

Now think about the finest musical experience you've ever had. I have a small collection of them and I can never decide which was the greatest, so I seize on whichever one seems appropriate at the time. One of my favorites is a May evening decades long past, when I was taking a twilight stroll behind Campbell Hall, the University of Virginia's architecture school. The air had that Piedmont softness that precedes central Virginia's swampy summer swelter and the school was brightly lit inside and seemed to hunker on the hill like a giant flying saucer. As I made my way toward the railroad tracks that were the shortest route to my house, I stopped at a concrete courtyard set into the building where two students were playing a game of late night Frisbee with a fluorescent disc. The two players, lit from the windows above them, drifted in the twilight like ghosts connected by the back and forth and rise and fall of the faintly glowing Frisbee. With his back against the glass wall at the rear of the courtyard, another student was playing tenor sax, manipulating the sound and intensity of his instrument by bouncing his riffs off the three walls, toying with the rapid echoes off the glass and the slow, soft ones off the low hills surrounding us. The sax player was obviously into 'Trane -- he was practicing circular breathing and initiating sheets of sound that never seemed to diminish in intensity. It was a perfect jazz moment -- and it was one of the most powerful musical experiences of my life. Thirty years later, I've heard Sonny Rollins on a tear. I've heard the Art Ensemble of Chicago at their peak. I've seen the best minds of my generation... Sorry, that's a different rap. My point is, I've heard musicians with technical capacities that put that college saxophonist to shame. I've been to Carnegie Hall. I heard Talking Heads when they were a trio. But that evening was perfect -- and no comparison can dim its luster. Every musical experience is unique. Eric Dolphy said, shortly before his death, "When you hear music, after it's over -- it's gone, into the air. You can never capture it again." I know he said it because I have it on a record, which also brings to mind what John Cage said, "Let no one imagine that in owning a recording he has the music. The very practice of music is a celebration that we own nothing." And that's the secret to conquering audiophilistinism. No matter how much we love music, we cannot own it -- we can only experience it. When we accept each musical experience for what it is and forget the incessant urge to compare everything to some ideal of perfection, we can start on our way back to the company of normal people. Oh yeah -- those people will probably turn out to be even more interesting than your favorite shaded dog played for the 800th time.

abhi.pani schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: abhi, I never said that quad is a natural and clean sounding speaker. You only said so in your post. “Clean and natural” means as accurate and musical you can get within a certain budget. Usually speakers belonging to this category will try to get it as clean as possible within the permissible limits of physics and cost. It won’t accentuate anything to make it sound great with a certain kind of music and fare very bad with others. But if you compare a clean speaker to one that is voiced for metal with metal music, naturally the one voiced for metal will win. There is nothing wrong in that. Most speakers are generally voiced to sound great with a certain kind of music/audience in mind to capture that part of the market share. arj schrieb: our friend square wave has hit the right note above. in fact Abhi, my experience with Quad was the same as above (with a rotel or a nad amp) it can do vocals etc really well but is not able to play out sounds with complicated bass. if you have a drums + bass guitar going dynamic it struggles but it can do vocals etc quite well.. so it is one of the most clean sounding within its limits of bass..and of course within its budget. expecting it to sound as good or better than a Dyn 52 would of course be unfair as the latter is cleaner in its midrange and with very good bass. So, basically its very dificult to IDENTIFY a natural sounding speaker ?? Whats your take on Cadence line up ? Are they all-rounders ?

I am not much of a fan of their entry level dynamic speakers. But the electrostatic hybrids are a different story. I have listened to two of them at different homes and I loved them with the Jazz and classical. I could not check with any other music because both do not have any other music lying around. One guy who is a western classical fan actually gave away all other music which he had. He has one of most elaborate collection of western classical I have seen. The speakers sounded absolutely dynamic and presented large scale classical music with all the ferocity and scale which I have not heard in any other form of music.

If any speaker can deal with some of the really "fierce" western classical, they can definitely deal with Rock.. maybe even metal

Hmmmmm....

If any speaker can deal with some of the really "fierce" western classical, they can definitely deal with Rock.. maybe even metal.

I often encounter this plug that Classical Music is the most demanding / telling test for a stereo system.

I personally disagree with this strongly, as much as I disagree with the claim that only old-phogies listen to classical music...

I guess your statement is valid for fans of classical music, but I cant accept it as a Universal truth. ( Just my Personal opinion )

well i am a rock fan listen to some classical as well... some of the demanding music i have heard are below.. for those who know I am not talking Beethoven, brahms or Schubert here

1. Mossorgsky - night on the bald mountain
2. Mephistos waltz
3. Lucifer Polka..
in fact there is an Album (HDCD) by Eijo Oui and the Min. Orchestra called Mephistos Waltz containing some really fierce pieces.

why I feel they are very demanding if not the worst is due to very very dynamic variationsfrom HIgh to low simultaneously in different freq regions.

But also being a loyal rock fan (Of the Dire strits, ELP, PF et al kind) when i compare the two, i find avery big difference in the scale an intensity of sound.

I have heard Prodigy and i feel their pieces like Firestarter are very very demanding and perkaps tougher than most classical pieces but then thiat is in the realm of Metal for me

We all have our fav "Test" tracks.... predictably from the music genre that we like best, and which highlight aspects that we would most like to hear, and therefore associate them with the capability of a good system.

However, just for the record ( no pun intended )

1. The fastest Music transient on dics is the Sheiffied Drum Disk. ( Its about 2 Volts per micro-second )

2. The Highest ( best ) Signal To Noise Ratio of a musical recording ( ie the quietest back ground ) is supposed to be about 68 dB - A Paul Simon recording CD.

Neither of these "Excellent" recordings are Western Classical music

The above 2 figures.... I had read more than 4 years ago, so now there may have emerged 'better' recordings.... and yes, they Could be Western Classical ... ;-)

Cheers To ALL Music ... even the ones I have not yet 'grown up to like. '

OK I agree with noyu on individual track but i was talking on very much more generic genres here rather than tracks!!

I do have an xrcd version of the drum& track list as well as the Newton Howard and his frinds disc. Also have some really crushing Kodo drummers and some extreme chinese drums .. I also have Paul Simon’s "Adios Hermanos," from Songs from the Capeman which has these extreme SNR variations.(In fact he is one of my really liked artists !)

Additionally Enyas Watermark also has some really "nasty" bass content, and so does the Firestarter by prodigy which can be really nasty on any sound system

But to me.. having been and still am a rock fan and just entering ito western classical for the past few years, the sheer number of instruments and the various frequency domains that they cover parallely and at the same time vary so dynammically to weave a mosaic of music makes them so much difficult to produce the same way.

each setup seems to interpret them a bit differently and higher resolving systems always seems to add more to the music more so than others, may it be rock, vocals or anything else

But this is just my view.. perhaps am a bit biased as i am just getting into it;) and i guess it really does not matter which is most difficult to produce as long as it is produced well

Manek schrieb:

amp nut... That signature line is .......

and it also happens to be a wonderful piece of jazz by Duke Ellington, but i love the version played by the Brilliant ray brown trio (Particularly in their live album - Summerwind )

will definitely get you up on your feet or at least get your air drumming !

Arj,

you must hear the louis armstrong and duke ellington perform this number together.....heaven....its just heaven.

manek.

manek, do you know the Album name ? im getting it

Also, if you already havent done so, please do listen to an album called Kings of BAss by Gary Karr. if there is anybody who can be taken along the same breath as Ray Brown on the double bass, it him (and some people think of it the other way !!)
cheers!

thanks for the suggestion....you know ray brown i my favoutire too dont you ?

the duke + louis abbul is called "the summit". Its louis singing many of dukes numbers with duke and his orchestra in tow. Simply fantastic. Songs like "dukes place(C jam blues)", solitude, it dont mean a thing etc are just wonderfull.

If you do like count basie then I would recommend an album he cut in the sisties called "the beatle bag". A big band swinging to beatle numbers. Awesome.

but then this is a loudspeaker topic...so dont want to hijack it.

manek.


manek.

nimz schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: So, basically its very dificult to IDENTIFY a natural sounding speaker ?? So its better to stick with the ones that make u tap your feet.. right Abhi?

The problem is - can we all agree to "one" answer for the following question

What is natural sound??

If we all agree to a single answer...then identifying the speaker is a cake walk. This i do not think is possible.

Before anyone would say the answer is "live music"...no..i'm looking at a more detailed answer. For example, which refelects the nature more accurately...valve or solid state ?. I was referring to an answer that includes aspects like timber of instrument,dynamics, size of sound-stage, etc.,

Hence my choice would be "Anything that makes me tap my foot"

Cheers
Siva.

I agree on the fooot tapping part wholeheartedly.

but i would definitely want to look at Soundstage and imaging while auditionaing and for system tuneups/tweaking. that is one way of objectively measuring as to how the system is measuring up as it provides a "reality check "by means of a reference

some time back the music was good and had changed my DAC, but when I , for a lark, put in a Hifi news test cd, one of the tracks for Phase check gave me a jolt. although my connections were all apparently right, the imaging was not really right.(in fact it was all wrong !!). result I had to swap the red and balack terminals in just one speaker (ie red wire connected to black terminal !)

now it is dead center imaging again ..

BRW can anyone explain that to me ? was it some component reversing out just one channel ? seems odd..

Arj,

Make the loudspeakers face each other and place them as close to each other as possible.

First, try (play some music) with the connection as it is currently. Next, change the "phase" of connection in one loudspeaker and listen to the same track again.

Most of the frequency spectrum will get cancelled when the speakers are connected in opposite polarity. There will be no such cancellation if the speakers are connected with proper polarity..

Probably your room is playing some trick. The above experiment can help you identify where the problem is ... let us know the results.

Cheers
Siva.

Good idea, i guess i can figure out if it is a speaker/component issue or the room which is causing this.

but it has to be later.. just cannot think of moving the speakers having just got them into a nice position and the cables or just tidied up . my speaker cables are Huge with spades and it is with great difficulty i got them into the cheapo clips in the t-Amp !!;)

Arj schrieb:

some time back the music was good and had changed my DAC, but when I , for a lark, put in a Hifi news test cd, one of the tracks for Phase check gave me a jolt.

Are these test CDs available in retail shops like ProFx etc? Or have to be ordered seperately!!

Thanks

Nimz

Manek schrieb:

Arj, you must hear the louis armstrong and duke ellington perform this number together.....heaven....its just heaven. manek.

Yes,
That duke and Louis compilation is just pure ecstasy………….
That is my favorite Sunday evening jazz session.

Manek schrieb:

the duke + louis abbul is called "the summit". Its louis singing many of dukes numbers with duke and his orchestra in tow. Simply fantastic. Songs like "dukes place(C jam blues)", solitude, it dont mean a thing etc are just wonderfull.

just bought it ! http://www.bluenote.com/detail.asp?SelectionID=9944

its good stuff.. must say the energy levels are really great

was also recommended this on http://www.bluenote.com/detail.asp?SelectionID=10459 by an old gentleman I met in the store.. turned out to be simply amazing and also a stereophile recommended disc

Anybody know where I can pick up "Jazz At the Pawn Shop" vol 1. None of the shops here carry them.
I saw somewhere an ad for the xrcd version(double cd). I can't seem to find them on the JVC xrcd site.

Will cost You a packet $$$$$$$$$

Maybe Prithvi has it in stock ?

IMHO, I feel that XRCDs are generally rather 'Hot" ie their tonal balance is Not natural, but mastered to appeal - ON FIRST HEARING - to an audiophile.

Reminds me of my early days as an audiophile, when I was thrilled to listen with the "Loudness" button ON....

ok. will check with him.
Hey, not all xrcds are like that. Most sound more dynamic and clean than their older softer ones. One good example is the " brothers in arms" xrcd. People in general are divided on their preference. Some prefer the laid back/soft older verson to the new xrcd. I have both.I found the xrcd has more detail in the entire spectrum but is slightly on the brighter side of neutral. A friend of mine who has klipsch speakers can't listen to the XRCD version.

maybe the system is on the brighter side of neutral which becomes apparent with higher resolution

Yes I have noticed this even with some telarc cds. Systems on the brighter side of neutral usually have a tendency to sound bright with higher resolution cds and recordings.

Arj schrieb:

Manek schrieb: the duke + louis abbul is called "the summit". Its louis singing many of dukes numbers with duke and his orchestra in tow. Simply fantastic. Songs like "dukes place(C jam blues)", solitude, it dont mean a thing etc are just wonderfull. just bought it ! http://www.bluenote.com/detail.asp?SelectionID=9944 its good stuff.. must say the energy levels are really great was also recommended this on http://www.bluenote.com/detail.asp?SelectionID=10459 by an old gentleman I met in the store.. turned out to be simply amazing and also a stereophile recommended disc ;)

Hey Arj, I would love to raid your cupboard anyday……