Would you use a sub(s) in a Stereo setup?

I wont implement one sub...If I have to implement then it would be two or three. Would rather invest prefer extended range speakers.

Manek.

I don't see why not. If it improves the overall sound (to my ears) then, I certainly would.

Having a sub is wise idea ..but always go for a audiophile sub !

hey ben....

depends on the genre of music one listens.....
rock/pop music requires a sub to take the full potential of the music....

not heard much of jazz....as this genre is a smooth and relaxing music.....

others not much idea....

edges

If I have enough budget and a treated room with bass traps, I would love to have high-quality – musical sub/subs in my setup. But I won’t compromise on the quality of my main speakers to accommodate a budget for a mediocre sub……

Edges schrieb:

hey ben.... depends on the genre of music one listens..... rock/pop music requires a sub to take the full potential of the music.... not heard much of jazz....as this genre is a smooth and relaxing music..... others not much idea.... edges

Edges, you are mistaken……..the double bass in jazz goes much lower than the electric guitar bass in rock. The rest of the instruments are same. And the use of the piano which goes pretty low is more common in Jazz. I tend to hear much more true and extended bass in Jazz than in rock recordings………..

square_wave schrieb:

If I have enough budget and a treated room with bass traps, I would love to have high-quality – musical sub/subs in my setup. But I won’t compromise on the quality of my main speakers to accommodate a budget for a mediocre sub……

Agreed..but what would quantify /qualify as a mediocre sub...? and what exactly do u mean by musical subs..don't u guys keep saying that bass frequencies are low and hence the distorion in the amplifiers driving them doesn't matter...what is this musical quality that u look for in a sub..
can u guys give me what attributes are essential and what would be the other desirable traits one would want to derive from subs..

absolutely, the frequencies are the lowest in Western Classical and Jazz genres.

I subscribe to the view that speakers putting out the lower end of the frequency spectrum need a different placement than those delivering the mids & highs. Lower frequencies need wall-reinforcement (somebody calculated in a webforum that the ideal distance for <80 Hz frequencies is not more than 53 cms. from the wall). Mids & highs need to be away from the wall for the best imaging (as per the known laws of acoustics, there is nothing such as "imaging" in bass, though many audiophiles get put-off by this statement!).

Assuming there is a speaker that is capable of flat frequency response over the 20 Hz-20 KHz sound spectrum, any given placement of it will only be a compromise between the inherent requirements of bass-frequencies and the mids & highs.

Therefore it is perhaps better that speakers giving out mids & highs be separate in a stereo setup and placed away from the walls, whereas the speakers putting out <80 Hz be placed close to the walls.

The best sub is one which plays but you cannot locate it, right?
The way to go about it is as I mentioned earlier is 3 subs,as it seems was done in the Delhi AV Revolution.
Excite the room equally in respect to your listening position,instead of using one sub which will show its position in the room.
Main speakers should be capable of 80Hz minus 2db, and at least 45" from the rear wall if you are using this frequency as the x-over point or take the main speaker right up to the wall.
Regards

deaf schrieb:

The best sub is one which plays but you cannot locate it, right? The way to go about it is as I mentioned earlier is 3 subs,as it seems was done in the Delhi AV Revolution. Excite the room equally in respect to your listening position,instead of using one sub which will show its position in the room. Main speakers should be capable of 80Hz minus 2db, and at least 45" from the rear wall if you are using this frequency as the x-over point or take the main speaker right up to the wall. Regards

i disagree...
main speakers should be at least 40 Hz at -3 db(in a sub sat/speaker system)....else u will lose a lot of information in the upper octave..
besides..it is ususally in the 100 Hz region where you will find the subs wheezing and huffing when male vocals are played..
this means those frequencies are over emphasized..
i will continue this later when i get back tonight.

Dear Ben 40hz is 28 feet long, most floor standing speakers have trouble reproducing it correctly.No sat is going to give that LF unless it uses a 8"driver minimum or the speaker is processed actively.Hell, if you really measure, very few commercial subs will play below 30Hz themselves.30 Hz will require atleast a 12" driver; or a 10" very heavy cone with a long travel and a huge amp driving that mass of the cone.
Male vocals below 100hz very very very rare, only baritone in western classical music.Most male vocals 250-300 upward is the norm.

U misinterpret my post...neway..i'll clear things up..
The chesty sound that u get when listening to male voices is at 100 Hz..not implying that the male voices go lower than 100Hz.
the best setup for a sub sat combination would be to setup the sats on top of the sub so that the voice coils are in the same plane.
with this you get seamless integration.
Alternatively the sats can be placed next to the sub.
In a sub sat system with speakers with -3db cutoff at 80 Hz you lose out on the lower two octaves if u use only a single sub.for example..if the speakers have a -3db at around 40 Hz then u would need only one sub to account for the lowest octave.

For the sound of the various drvers to reach the listenre at the same time u would need to place the sats and sub's voice coil in the same physical plane.
If placed ina different direction then the arrival time to each of the listener's ears would not be same unless placed directly behind the listener. Have only read about this.

Note: donot place anything on the sub as that would resonate at the frequencies being outputted by the sub.
channel sepearation below 100/80 Hz is almost non-existent...The better sources in increasing order of degree of channel seperation in the lower frequencies are
Vinyl
Tapes
CDs
Cheers,
Benkenobi

benkenobi schrieb:

U misinterpret my post...neway..i'll clear things up.. The chesty sound that u get when listening to male voices is at 100 Hz..not implying that the male voices go lower than 100Hz. the best setup for a sub sat combination would be to setup the sats on top of the sub so that the voice coils are in the same plane. with this you get seamless integration. Alternatively the sats can be placed next to the sub. In a sub sat system with speakers with -3db cutoff at 80 Hz you lose out on the lower two octaves if u use only a single sub.for example..if the speakers have a -3db at around 40 Hz then u would need only one sub to account for the lowest octave. For the sound of the various drvers to reach the listenre at the same time u would need to place the sats and sub's voice coil in the same physical plane. If placed ina different direction then the arrival time to each of the listener's ears would not be same unless placed directly behind the listener. Have only read about this. Note: donot place anything on the sub as that would resonate at the frequencies being outputted by the sub. channel sepearation below 100/80 Hz is almost non-existent...The better sources in increasing order of degree of channel seperation in the lower frequencies are Vinyl Tapes CDs Cheers, Benkenobi

Dear Ben
Love your enthusiasm.But the post seems to have contradictions.
1) Do not put anything on the subs as it would resonate with the sub.Ok, then wouldn't the satellite resonate too and colour the mids first thus creating a masking effect, when you put it on the sub as you suggest.
2)Two subs for <80 Hz and one sub for <40Hz.Ok,if channel seperation below 100/80Hz is non existant, how does one sub two or three matter if it is only a frequency cutoff issue?
3)That chesty sound you talk about is not a real signal of male vocals, it is a cheaply made, improperly braced subwoofer resonating higher up in frequency closer to 250Hz or so.
4)Alinging voice coils to ensure similar arrival time of signals from the driver ONLY WORKS WITH FIRST ORDER CROSSOVERS,and no other type,and subs do not use first order crossover,because they would be subs no more with such a shallow low pass filter.
Regards

deaf schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb: U misinterpret my post...neway..i'll clear things up.. The chesty sound that u get when listening to male voices is at 100 Hz..not implying that the male voices go lower than 100Hz. the best setup for a sub sat combination would be to setup the sats on top of the sub so that the voice coils are in the same plane. with this you get seamless integration. Alternatively the sats can be placed next to the sub. In a sub sat system with speakers with -3db cutoff at 80 Hz you lose out on the lower two octaves if u use only a single sub.for example..if the speakers have a -3db at around 40 Hz then u would need only one sub to account for the lowest octave. For the sound of the various drvers to reach the listenre at the same time u would need to place the sats and sub's voice coil in the same physical plane. If placed ina different direction then the arrival time to each of the listener's ears would not be same unless placed directly behind the listener. Have only read about this. Note: donot place anything on the sub as that would resonate at the frequencies being outputted by the sub. channel sepearation below 100/80 Hz is almost non-existent...The better sources in increasing order of degree of channel seperation in the lower frequencies are Vinyl Tapes CDs Cheers, Benkenobi Dear Ben Love your enthusiasm.But the post seems to have contradictions. 1) Do not put anything on the subs as it would resonate with the sub.Ok, then wouldn't the satellite resonate too and colour the mids first thus creating a masking effect, when you put it on the sub as you suggest. 2)Two subs for <80 Hz and one sub for <40Hz.Ok,if channel seperation below 100/80Hz is non existant, how does one sub two or three matter if it is only a frequency cutoff issue? 3)That chesty sound you talk about is not a real signal of male vocals, it is a cheaply made, improperly braced subwoofer resonating higher up in frequency closer to 250Hz or so. 4)Alinging voice coils to ensure similar arrival time of signals from the driver ONLY WORKS WITH FIRST ORDER CROSSOVERS,and no other type,and subs do not use first order crossover,because they would be subs no more with such a shallow low pass filter. Regards

I said alinging of the voice coils should be on the same plane not place it on the sub.
And the operative word is 'need'(ask yourself if u do indeed need it).
Secondly, i said that you would need two subs as you would lose out on the frequencies and nothing to do with stereo seperation.
The cheap subs you talk about which exhibit this trait cost anywhere between 10-40k..
not exactly cheap by my standards.
Regarding the first order issue i will check that up and let u know...
BTW, what i put up was what i read ina speaer journal.
Also, a larger sub is always better than two smaller subs as the two cubs would be coherent while the larger sub would be having larger linear movement(typically).

ok i got a question when looking at speaker specification they mention frequency range and frequency response both are different ....could some one explain this

frequency response would be the range of frequencies between the two -3db points at the extremes.
regarding frequency range i would guess it means that the speaker just reproduces the frequency but at lower db levels than the -3db.
This is how i understand it..
set me right if i am wrong.

m going a bit off track, but would someone care educate me on this.. my Q is. how does a sub with one woofer give the stereo effect effectively...my passive sub..not one of the best but works out very fine for me.. has two speakers init..one for each channel. it comprises of two 5 1/2 inch drivers. i chked out subs from jbl...didnt find them any more impressive than my current subs..will chk out the polk over the weekend..

benkenobi schrieb:

frequency response would be the range of frequencies between the two -3db points at the extremes. regarding frequency range i would guess it means that the speaker just reproduces the frequency but at lower db levels than the -3db. This is how i understand it.. set me right if i am wrong.

Dear Ben very good,frequency response is more anechoic measurement, and range is -10db in room for speakers in real situations.Regards

neckie schrieb:

m going a bit off track, but would someone care educate me on this.. my Q is. how does a sub with one woofer give the stereo effect effectively...my passive sub..not one of the best but works out very fine for me.. has two speakers init..one for each channel. it comprises of two 5 1/2 inch drivers. i chked out subs from jbl...didnt find them any more impressive than my current subs..will chk out the polk over the weekend..

Dear Neckie
Single woofer powered subs,sum the L&R signals to mono, in the amplifier stage.The rare single woofer stereo passive subs have a dual voice coil for the two channels;bad idea, as some recordings with out of phase low frequency signals in both channels wreck the sub, ,because the 2 voice coils fight each other and the driver goes for a toss.
Hope that answers your question.
Regards

Dear All,

I was wondering if the sub is crossed at say 80 to 100 Hz can a human decipher the location of the subwoofer ?

I am intrigued !

Please help !

Regards,

Junia.

Would Neckie please specify what sub is he using? Is it a push-pull, or simple twin-driver sub?

The following advice on subwoofers came from one of the Gurus of high-end audio, Doug Blackburn (I am not a techie, so don't stone me).

1.) The crossover frequency of a subwoofer should be one octave above the -3dB point of the main-speakers to avoid loss of information interms of octaves. That is, if your main-speakers' -3dB point is 40 Hz, your subwoofer crossover point should be 80 Hz. That is quite an overlap, especially if your sub & main-speakers roll off gently.

2.) That means, if your main-speakers can not go down to 40 Hz at -3dB, your subwoofer crossover point has to be above 80 Hz. This results in sound from subwoofer becoming directional.

3.) If the sound from your subwoofer becomes directional, you would have to employ two subwoofers for the left and right channels respectively, or have to place the subwoofer in the middle to avoid the imaging being "pulled" to one side.

That roughly supports Ben's arguments. Correct me if I am wrong! In reality 80 Hz is two standard deviations below the lowest frequency whose direction a pair of golden (human) ears can locate. So may be marginal relaxation to the 80 Hz rule is allowed. However, if you really test with a test-disk, even the best of the subwoofers can be found putting out sounds much above the 80 Hz benchmark, though these sounds may be something like -12 dB with respect to the pass band. It is said that employing brickwall filters can cut off the above 80 Hz sounds coming out from the subwoofer, but result in significant degeneration of sound quality. So there is a trade-off.

Inference: Yes, subwoofers crossed at 80 Hz can be located if one has a good pair of ears.

Use the three subs dude,I am not kidding.Besides why would I want a sub, if my speaker is doing 40Hz -3db anechoic?It will probably do 35-37Hz in room anyways -3db that is, and 30hz -10db.Thank goodness for the non linear human hearing in relation to loudness.
Regards

I get the point! Learning!!! So in-room has a slight frequency extension compared to anaechoic chamber, is it? Could you elaborate a little bit on "non-linear nature" of human hearing?

kspv schrieb:

I get the point! Learning!!! So in-room has a slight frequency extension compared to anaechoic chamber, is it? Could you elaborate a little bit on "non-linear nature" of human hearing?

Dear Satyam,
Rules
No1)There are no internet audio gurus,always remember that,because you are your own teacher in audio.
No2)Mug above rule
Ok, the two extensions in these conditions are different. Regarding the F M loudsness curves, basically it says
at low spl we hear very little LF & HF as compared to the mids.As spl increases we start hearing LF & HF with increasing intensity as compared to the mids;i.e the louder you get the more and more LF& HF as compared to the mids.GET IT
This helps saves woofers and tweeters at higher spls,"THANKS THE GODS I SAY".
Regards

Dear Kspv

A more detailed & precise explanation on Fletcher-Munson Curves may be found at

http://richardbrice.net/fletcher_munson.htm

Regards,

Junia.

deaf schrieb:

kspv schrieb: I get the point! Learning!!! So in-room has a slight frequency extension compared to anaechoic chamber, is it? Could you elaborate a little bit on "non-linear nature" of human hearing? Dear Satyam, Rules No1)There are no internet audio gurus,always remember that,because you are your own teacher in audio. No2)Mug above rule Ok, the two extensions in these conditions are different. Regarding the F M loudsness curves, basically it says at low spl we hear very little LF & HF as compared to the mids.As spl increases we start hearing LF & HF with increasing intensity as compared to the mids;i.e the louder you get the more and more LF& HF as compared to the mids.GET IT This helps saves woofers and tweeters at higher spls,"THANKS THE GODS I SAY". Regards

I totally agree with the two rules...that was good one !

Hey ben, you choices are skewed.... I am not an "audiophile" in the truest sense, but I still prefer full range speakers to sub, as I found that improves the coherency considerably - matching a sub to the rest off the speakers is very tough althoug the rewards are worth it. That doesn't prevent me at all from abhorring a sub in the setup though - so voting for sub!

No...not at all..the choices are apt..
u see i have made it clear that most of us don't have full range speakers...nonetheless, some people eschew from subs. The reasons they state is the same as you rs..that coherence is lost and that they would not be time aligned and what not..
of course they are valid..but the choices are expresslly made out keeping in mind that none of us(at least most of us) don't have full range speakers..
given a choice,i myself would go for full range speakers..

benkenobi schrieb:

No...not at all..the choices are apt.. u see i have made it clear that most of us don't have full range speakers...nonetheless, some people eschew from subs. The reasons they state is the same as you rs..that coherence is lost and that they would not be time aligned and what not.. of course they are valid..but the choices are expresslly made out keeping in mind that none of us(at least most of us) don't have full range speakers.. given a choice,i myself would go for full range speakers..

Dear Ben
Very true, but most audiophiles, whether they accept it or not love 'deep tight bass', as opposed to correctly alinged low frequencies in a room.Go to a live event, and you will realise that, there is no deep tight bass, just pitch perfect low frequencies from the instruments.Exposure to live music hence, gives us the ability to integrate a sub, if you chose to use one, better and more correctly to your main speakers.
Regards

Just to make things clear to myself:

Is time-alignment important with respect to <80 Hz frequencies? Since any way a 20 Hz sound wave would be something like 52 feet long (and seldom there are any listening rooms of that length), invariably we end up hearing the low frequencies through reflected waves only, and to my understanding these reflected bass-waves can not be time-aligned with the sound of mid-woofer & tweeter. The other way we feel low bass is through floor (or furniture) vibrations, which has nothing to do with time-alignment (that concerns only with hearing).

This is not to deny the (well researched) fact that time alignment between midwoofer & tweeter is important.

kspv schrieb:

Just to make things clear to myself: Is time-alignment important with respect to <80 Hz frequencies? Since any way a 20 Hz sound wave would be something like 52 feet long (and seldom there are any listening rooms of that length), invariably we end up hearing the low frequencies through reflected waves only, and to my understanding these reflected bass-waves can not be time-aligned with the sound of mid-woofer & tweeter. The other way we feel low bass is through floor (or furniture) vibrations, which has nothing to do with time-alignment (that concerns only with hearing). This is not to deny the (well researched) fact that time alignment between midwoofer & tweeter is important.

Dear kspv,
Very few loudspeakers are time alinged even in the mids and highs, so subs are still far away..Which means when a step response of a speaker is taken all drivers arrive the mic at the same time, whereby you will see a single sharp right angle rise with a single decay of the all the drivers simultaneously.One such animal was the Theil CS5 and the Dunlavy designs.ONLY A FIRST ORDER BUTTERWORTH X-OVER ALLOWS TRUE TIME ALINGMENT in passive crossovers.
Regarding 20Hz in room,it is not merely a function of room lenght,but cubic volume with relation to absorbtion coefficient of the room. e.g a normal domestically furnished room will have to be about 7000 cubic feet and above to realise a clean 20 cycles.
All sounds we hear have a greater degree of reflected than direct energy, throughout the frequency range.Hence it is important for a speaker to not only have a good on axis response but also a good off axis response.This combined on and off axis reponse is called power response,and the better this is in direct radiating dynamic(cone /dome )speakers the more natural the sound.
Regards

Hi All,

I think "Deaf"'s explanation of a "normal domestically furnish room" having 7000 cubic feet, is fundamentally flawed, more so in an Indian context. The average Indian, ceiling height is 10 feet & the outer most width of a room is 15 feet, which mean the length of the room should be around 46 feet to realize 20 cycles according to "Deaf" I am sure information of the internet in theory would work well but not in a practical environment more so in India !

KSVP's question of time alignment below 80 Hz has not been addressed just skirted around so far..... I believe at lower frequencies time alignment loses it significance...however if anyone can prove otherwise I would be happy to reconsider my views.

Regards,

Junia.

A sub sounds like a great idea. But I am afraid of vibrating objects. Glass panes and other household furniture has the nasty habit of rattling at lower frequencies.

Can anyone answer this simple question:
Does sitting close (half to one metre) from a bookshelf speaker make it sound better?
More of direct rather than reflected sound.
Or do room reflections add to the character of the music.

Someone here mentioned that time alignment of mids and highs is uncommon. Is he correct? I was under the (false?)impression that audiophile speakers are routinely time aligned.

Long time since I tuned in here and missed out on many discussions

Deaf, your comments were very enlightening. I voted for Sub with some genres.

I would prefer a Well done Full range..but since they are so much out of range would prefer, ideally, a dual sub combination with Bookshelves. but since that too is out of range will be most probabily left with a Single sub but with a speaker line in (Along the lines of REL, MJ)

Integerating a sub into a room is tough..but integeating a Full range speaker (a Good one is pretty huge ) into a standard 10X12 indian room is going to be an interesting possibility especially since they would need around 4 feet behind them to breathe well.

heres an interesting link on the various frequency ranges of instruments

http://www.psbspeakers.com/Images/Audiotopics/fChart.gif

surprised to find that except for the Harp, the Bass and the ContraBasoon, nothing goes below 40 hz.

Of course Organs are supposed to go down to 16 Hz and are not mentioned here. I presume some Drum recordings have sub 30 Hs information as well.(For eg the excellent Sheffield labs recording)

But I am not aware of the Sub harmonics of these musical instruments. can someone throw some light on that ?


In the end what makes the difference, I presume , is the amount of Air the speaker moves. With the klipsch RF3s the drums in Hotel california kicked you in the gut. but with the JMR Twins the tighness and the tension of the drum is felt but not that punch (Of course in case of vocals it is a whole different ballgame)

From what I have understood a sub also helps take the load of Low Frequency from the driver and hence allowes it to perform within its speced parameters, assuming the sub has been crossed over that that frequency

All the above IMHO

to try and answer neutral's questions

not all speakers sound better close up. you've got to try and listen and judge for yourself.

time alighment of drivers is not very common. Many speaker manufacvturers avoid it. Its a bit tougher to time align drivers and adds to cost. Some try and do it mechanically on the baffle and others have tried to use an electrical time delay circuit(dont know how its done).

Some take refuge in the belief that time alignment does not matter as a few tests have shown that one cannot hear a difference between time aligned and non-time aligned speakers. Some people can decipher the same and mostly in the bass lines.

Tests have shown that speakers with 1st order crossovers are more sensitive/responsive to time alignment whereas higher order crossovers are less sensitive/responsive.

Manek.

Thanks Manek,

Is it true that d'Appolito bookshelves have better time alignment and are more suitable as nearfields? Or is there some other purpose of a d'Appolito arrangement?