Usher Audio

If only magazine reviews were so explicit with their unbaised opinions for all Hi Fi products ....

Krish schrieb:

I would like very much appreciate if those of you who either own the Be-718 or the mini dancers, spell out what makes these speakers special. - What is the tonal character of these speakers. - What other speaker brands would you compare the Ushers with. - What kinds of music do these spkrs prefer ( if at all). - What don't they do well. Cheers, K

I'm a Be-718 owner and have been using this speaker for close to 6 months or so now. Here are my observations.

Tonal Character - It sounds very very clean and is very slightly to the forward side of neutral. It definitely is more forward than say a dynaudio esotec tweeter which is the other I've heard extensively at abhi.pani's place. However it is not brash or tingly like metal domes. The tweeter is very very refined. You'll hear amazing amounts of detail but never ever feel that its in your face. The nice thing is the speaker is not genre specific. It can do most genres of music really well. Unlike certain others which sound brilliant in jazz/classical but boring in rock, these are allrounders that excel in just about anything you throw at it. However one better not play very poor quality recordings.

They produce a lot of bass for a bookshelf with an F3 of 42 Hz and an in room response of low 30's. Their placement is critical or else they boom very easily. They need a room of atleast 2 feet on the sides and rear to open up. Once placed correctly, it has good midbass warmth when paired with the right electronics.

The electronics matter too - even though the speaker is rated at roughly 86dB/W/m, its an easy load and can be driven by 15-30W tubes. Pairing it with a neutral or slightly laid back amp is essential for it to perform well. I use a mccormack and a modified lyrita pre and I'm quite happy with the performance. The electronics call for an upgrade though - the speaker requires far better electronics to perform their best. They are absolutely brutal in showing flaws in electronics and correspondingly scale very well with better electronics.

Coming to the flaws, I have to admit I do hear a slight bit of compression when comparing it to the new Mini Dancer-1 which is the floor standing version of the same speaker. There is a slight bit of box coloration but compared to the stuff in this price range, it sounds significantly more open. However the latter does have a much better cabinet and is quite a bit more expensive. Also with the wrong electronics, it can sound a bit bright with a slight bit of hardness to cymbals. The susceptibility to room placement would also be another problem. It is not the best option for a small room. These speakers need a decently sized room to do their magic. They are also back breakers if you wish to move them around - each of them weighs more than 17 kilograms. However considering everything, at the price point they are offered at in India (~1lac+VAT), I doubt you can do better. Infact I can go on and say that you'd find it extremely hard to beat it even for double the price unless you buy used.

Before buying this speaker, here's a list of stuff that I listened to - some of which are way more expensive.

Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE / S1.4 / S3.4
Dynaudio Confidence C1
Dynaudio Focus 220
KEF Reference 201
Thiel CS2.4
Monitor Audio GS10/GS20
Dali Helicon 400 Mk II
Focal Electra 1007Be
Cadence Avita Electrostats
Martin Logan Summit
B&W 805S
Jamo D590/C807
Magnepan MG3.6
Wilson Sophia/Duette

If I were to compare something thats similar sounding to the Usher, it would probably be the Confidence C1. The Wilsons were in a different performance class altogether but everything considered, I didn't feel the others in that list were significantly better than the Ushers.

Hope this helps!

Muchas Gracias mi Amigo.That was very comprehensive.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

If only magazine reviews were so explicit with their unbaised opinions for all Hi Fi products .... :.

allow me to complete the sentence ----

.... then, no reviews would be published at all because all the companies who paid millions of $ for advertising to promote their products would be sorely pissed!

heh, heh, heh!!

reignofchaos schrieb:

Tonal Character - It sounds very very clean and is very slightly to the forward side of neutral. It definitely is more forward than say a dynaudio esotec tweeter which is the other I've heard extensively at abhi.pani's place. However it is not brash or tingly like metal domes. The tweeter is very very refined. You'll hear amazing amounts of detail but never ever feel that its in your face. However one better not play very poor quality recordings. Once placed correctly, it has good midbass warmth when paired with the right electronics. The electronics matter too - even though the speaker is rated at roughly 86dB/W/m, its an easy load and can be driven by 15-30W tubes. Pairing it with a neutral or slightly laid back amp is essential for it to perform well.

Some disturbing comments on the Usher Be-718s!
From the above comments it appears that the tweeter is out-of-phase (& maybe even phase reversed!) with the midrange driver. That would be 1 explanation for the overall forwardness & the revealing nature of the tweeter. That would also explain why one needs to tone down the tweeter with a laid back amp.
If the tweeter was in-phase w/ the midrange even a vintage integrated amp would have sufficed.
The speakers should preserve the phase relationship of the music by not adding their own distortion but if they (speakers) do then what you have is basically an unlistenable situation that demands "better" electronics. That's one way to solve the issue, yes, but that's a band-aid IMHO. The better option would be to remove the source of the distortion!

reignofchaos schrieb:

Coming to the flaws, I have to admit I do hear a slight bit of compression when comparing it to the new Mini Dancer-1 which is the floor standing version of the same speaker. There is a slight bit of box coloration but compared to the stuff in this price range, it sounds significantly more open. However the latter does have a much better cabinet and is quite a bit more expensive. Also with the wrong electronics, it can sound a bit bright with a slight bit of hardness to cymbals. The susceptibility to room placement would also be another problem. It is not the best option for a small room. These speakers need a decently sized room to do their magic.

hmmmmmmmmmmm...... not encouraging!

reignofchaos schrieb:

Before buying this speaker, here's a list of stuff that I listened to - some of which are way more expensive. Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE / S1.4 / S3.4 Dynaudio Confidence C1 Dynaudio Focus 220 KEF Reference 201 Thiel CS2.4 Monitor Audio GS10/GS20 Dali Helicon 400 Mk II Focal Electra 1007Be Cadence Avita Electrostats Martin Logan Summit B&W 805S Jamo D590/C807 Magnepan MG3.6 Wilson Sophia/Duette If I were to compare something thats similar sounding to the Usher, it would probably be the Confidence C1. The Wilsons were in a different performance class altogether but everything considered, I didn't feel the others in that list were significantly better than the Ushers. Hope this helps!

hats off to you - you did do due diligence before you made your choice.

bombaywalla schrieb:

Some disturbing comments on the Usher Be-718s! From the above comments it appears that the tweeter is out-of-phase (& maybe even phase reversed!) with the midrange driver. That would be 1 explanation for the overall forwardness & the revealing nature of the tweeter. That would also explain why one needs to tone down the tweeter with a laid back amp. If the tweeter was in-phase w/ the midrange even a vintage integrated amp would have sufficed. The speakers should preserve the phase relationship of the music by not adding their own distortion but if they (speakers) do then what you have is basically an unlistenable situation that demands "better" electronics. That's one way to solve the issue, yes, but that's a band-aid IMHO. The better option would be to remove the source of the distortion! hmmmmmmmmmmm...... not encouraging!

The speaker uses a second order crossover like most conventional bookshelves and yes the phase is reversed between the drivers. I have checked it by opening the rear panel. However isn't that true in just about every other time aligned, second order design?

Its not that significant a problem as you gather it to be :-). With nine out of ten amps, it sounds just fine. It is only the combo of that odd forward sounding amp and poor source material that makes the sound seem etched. It is a rare phenomenon to be honest you'd be hard pressed to notice it. I guess in a budget design compromises have to be made somewhere or the other.

A first order crossover is ideal but to get high quality drivers that overlap enough in frequency is not that easy a task. Also the speaker designer must incorporate in the design a method for canceling the response shifts off axis. As I said, the speaker has its own flaws - however these are trade-offs I'm willing to accept since the speaker is built to a price point. I'd definitely have issues with these design decisions if I had paid more for the speaker.

The designer at least got the basics right and built a good quality, rigid, time aligned cabinet, used high quality parts in the x-over, the driver response is some of the best in the business and the speaker is aesthetically quite pleasing. Most other speakers, especially those sold at similar prices in India don't even get these basics right.
For the price I paid for it, I'm more than willing to live with the quirks :-).

Cheers!

bombaywalla schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb: If only magazine reviews were so explicit with their unbaised opinions for all Hi Fi products .... :. allow me to complete the sentence ---- .... then, no reviews would be published at all because all the companies who paid millions of $ for advertising to promote their products would be sorely pissed! heh, heh, heh!! :L

Dear Bombaywalla,
I wanted to say something along the same lines yesterday when I had seen this post. You beat me to this
The politics in this industry is rather cut throat from my discussions with some people in the know. There is nothing some of these biggie brands won’t do to kill high quality small players.
Go by your ear I say !

[quote="square_wave
Go by your ear I say ![/quote]
not by hearsay eh!

Bharathna,

Here you have it! It is reignofchaos who has the Lyrita Audio preamplifier. Please contact him to have an audition.

Viren

viren schrieb:

Bharathna, Here you have it! It is reignofchaos who has the Lyrita Audio preamplifier. Please contact him to have an audition. Viren

Bharathana you are most welcome to come over and audition the Lyrita pre.

reignofchaos schrieb:

viren schrieb: Bharathna, Here you have it! It is reignofchaos who has the Lyrita Audio preamplifier. Please contact him to have an audition. Viren Bharathana you are most welcome to come over and audition the Lyrita pre.

Thanks Viren and Reignofchaos. Reign - sent you a PM

Bringing the discussion back to Ushers, yea more flowers and brickbats to Usher audio please

I bought the Usher be-718 about eight months ago. I had Monitor Audio RS 6 before this, so needless to say that this was a huge jump for me.

In the past 8 months, I upgraded my amp,pre, dac, cables, moved to a dedicated music room and added some basic room treatment.

I can tell you that the sound I get from my setup now sounds far better than how it sounded eight months ago when I had just brought the speakers home.

I listen to music for hours at moderate volume levels without any listening fatigue.

Ugh...my original take on the BE-718s stands...they are just too overblown and over hyped speakers..I have heard much better speakers for the same price range.

What I heard was a huge letdown...even the bigger BE-16 or somethings didn't impress me (16k$ a pair).

Then again this passion of ours is very very subjective and YMMV...

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Ugh...my original take on the BE-718s stands...they are just too overblown and over hyped speakers..I have heard much better speakers for the same price range. What I heard was a huge letdown...even the bigger BE-16 or somethings didn't impress me (16k$ a pair). Then again this passion of ours is very very subjective and YMMV...

Obi-Wan, do elaborate.

reignofchaos schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: Some disturbing comments on the Usher Be-718s! From the above comments it appears that the tweeter is out-of-phase (& maybe even phase reversed!) with the midrange driver. That would be 1 explanation for the overall forwardness & the revealing nature of the tweeter. That would also explain why one needs to tone down the tweeter with a laid back amp. If the tweeter was in-phase w/ the midrange even a vintage integrated amp would have sufficed. The speakers should preserve the phase relationship of the music by not adding their own distortion but if they (speakers) do then what you have is basically an unlistenable situation that demands "better" electronics. That's one way to solve the issue, yes, but that's a band-aid IMHO. The better option would be to remove the source of the distortion! hmmmmmmmmmmm...... not encouraging! The speaker uses a second order crossover like most conventional bookshelves and yes the phase is reversed between the drivers. I have checked it by opening the rear panel. However isn't that true in just about every other time aligned, second order design? Its not that significant a problem as you gather it to be :-). With nine out of ten amps, it sounds just fine. It is only the combo of that odd forward sounding amp and poor source material that makes the sound seem etched. It is a rare phenomenon to be honest you'd be hard pressed to notice it. I guess in a budget design compromises have to be made somewhere or the other. A first order crossover is ideal but to get high quality drivers that overlap enough in frequency is not that easy a task. Also the speaker designer must incorporate in the design a method for canceling the response shifts off axis. As I said, the speaker has its own flaws - however these are trade-offs I'm willing to accept since the speaker is built to a price point. I'd definitely have issues with these design decisions if I had paid more for the speaker. The designer at least got the basics right and built a good quality, rigid, time aligned cabinet, used high quality parts in the x-over, the driver response is some of the best in the business and the speaker is aesthetically quite pleasing. Most other speakers, especially those sold at similar prices in India don't even get these basics right. For the price I paid for it, I'm more than willing to live with the quirks :-). Cheers!

reignofchaos,
I am happy to read your post. What I liked was your overall attitude & acknowlegement of the speaker flaws DESPITE your having paid money for the same. I think this attitude is very important for anyone to become a better audiophile/person who appreciates hi-rez playback. Most of the time I see people become real nasty when you point out flaws in the gear they paid money. The degree of nastiness is directly proportional to the amount of money they paid for the gear!
Ok, so you recognize the flaws & are willing to live w/ them until you have time & money to upgrade. Cool!

Just FYI: time-aligned & phase coherent are inter-related but not the same thing. A time-aligned speaker is one where the designer has taken some care to ensure that the acoustic centers of all the drivers are on 1 plane such the sound wave from all drivers arrives at the same time to the listener. A phase coherent speaker is one that maintains the phase relationship of the music signal thru-out the sound spectrum or atleast a large portion of it. A phase coherent speaker is time-aligned but a time aligned speaker is not necessarily phase-coherent. Phase coherency is the more stringent criteria between the 2.
There are very, very, very few phase coherent speakers in the market. It's a very tough design, as you correctly pointed out.

Enjoy the music!

Krish schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: Ugh...my original take on the BE-718s stands...they are just too overblown and over hyped speakers..I have heard much better speakers for the same price range. What I heard was a huge letdown...even the bigger BE-16 or somethings didn't impress me (16k$ a pair). Then again this passion of ours is very very subjective and YMMV... Obi-Wan, do elaborate. :)

Krish,

I first the Usher at the RMAF 2008.

I carried around with me only one CD..Raachel Yamagata - Happenstance.

I had seen her live in Portland only a week earlier..The CD pressing was amazingly good and resolving and having been there live gave me a very good reference to check out audio gear at the show.

I listend to track 1, track 3 and track 5 at almost all rooms i visited..some i only listened to track 1.

At the usher audio room, the first day of the convention, I found myself relatively alone and had a chance to play all 3 songs. Among the few roms I had visited earlier the one that was my reference was the first room I had entered...the Verity Audio +Luminance amplifier+Virtual Dynamics room..What I heard in that room was truly amazing..I mean the guy who owns luminance can bullshit a bit but the synergy between the gear was unbelievable.

Everything was almost spot on..there were some things with regard to the bass that left me a bit wanting, the top end was slightly rolled off too early for y tastes..BUt overall, it was a great setup.


Yeah sure the cables alone in taht room cost 2x or 3x that the usher Be718s cost but then again I did not expect the huge letdown..Everything sounded dull..the bass sounded lean, the sound stage was not wide enough...the highs were a bit bright towards the top end with a sizzle at times when Rachel hit those high notes..However, as reignofchaos points out, its possible that it is the result of bad pairing of electronics. They were using Oracle audio for the amplification and the source. I do not know much about oracle audio so I won't go there.

The second day, i hung around the first floor where all the big ticket items were, Acapella, YG acoustics, Dehavilland, McIntosh. I also saw that there was another Usher audio room...i walk in and see two pairs of floorstanders...each identical..one being an upgraded model with better crossovers and things like that which they were selling for about 20k$..16k$ for the original version of the BE16.

The bass seemed fuller, the high end still seemed a bit too bright to my tastes..

I then of course walked into the Acapella + Einstein room and soon forgot about everything else..The McIntosh system was one of the best of the show for me..absolutely brilliant..

The best speakes i would recommend at the price range of the Ushers would be to cehck out the open baffles from Emerald Physics, Bramberg audio, Robertsacoustics..

I personally would have bought the Robertsacoustics Rapide..That speaker was amazing for its size..pity smal house designs don't get the limelight that they deserve while big company backed ones are blown all out of proportion.

I know that Savyasaachi didnt like the Ushers in the RMAF, he has said that before too. I dont know if you went to the recent CES and checked out the Ushers but without even hearing them, If I had to bet, I would say I wouldnt like them either, why? Since Usher likes to use them with the CD-7 -> P307A - R1.5 amp - speakers. This combo tends to sound bright for me and I suspect it will be the same for many others as well. Believe it or not the preferences can be different among the people in the far east. I dont know about Oracle audio either. All I can say is that hearing it in a show with electronics that you dont know doesnt say much about the speakers, it can be either that the speakers have such a signature sound or they are simply reflecting what the upstream components sound like.
The problem is that we all like to think we are listening to speakers, whereas we arent, we are listening to the entire system in a particular setting and unless you take the time to play with a component by pairing it with other components you know well, its very hard to judge
cheers

[quote="Savyasaachi"]the Verity Audio +Luminance amplifier+Virtual Dynamics room..What I heard in that room was truly amazing..I mean the guy who owns luminance can bullshit a bit but the synergy between the gear was unbelievable.[/quote]

O boy ! Finally someone who has listened to the verity speakers !
I have been hearing a lot of good things about this manufacturer these days. The shindo creator is a fan too.
Sachi, how would you rate the verity among the other speakers you have heard. Robert acoustics included. The rapide uses ceramic drivers if I am not mistaken. Getting the sound right with this material is very tricky. Very few manufacturers have succeeded and they sound like magic if done right. I have to confess that the previous couple of sentences are hearsay. I have not heard even a single speaker which use ceramic drivers.

Vinny,

The Verity audio speakers were really good. I liked them very much. I heard them in another room and they were sounding fantastic there too...

I put down most of my thoughts very briefly here

The Robertsacoustics Rapide speakers use the Accuton driver, the same one used by Kharma..I tell you, those speakers were something else..i loved them...If only I had about 1500$, I would have snapped up the demo pieces in an instant..but when the time does come around for me to upgrade speakers, Robertsacoustics is right there at the top of my list along with Emerald Physics.

redwine schrieb:

I know that Savyasaachi didnt like the Ushers in the RMAF, he has said that before too. I dont know if you went to the recent CES and checked out the Ushers but without even hearing them, If I had to bet, I would say I wouldnt like them either, why? Since Usher likes to use them with the CD-7 -> P307A - R1.5 amp - speakers. This combo tends to sound bright for me and I suspect it will be the same for many others as well. Believe it or not the preferences can be different among the people in the far east. I dont know about Oracle audio either. All I can say is that hearing it in a show with electronics that you dont know doesnt say much about the speakers, it can be either that the speakers have such a signature sound or they are simply reflecting what the upstream components sound like. The problem is that we all like to think we are listening to speakers, whereas we arent, we are listening to the entire system in a particular setting and unless you take the time to play with a component by pairing it with other components you know well, its very hard to judge cheers

Redwine, I agree with you regarding us auditioning the whole system and not just one component when we visit a show such as RMAF or CES (no I wasn't there). My question is that when a company like Usher bringstheir gear to important shows such as the ones above, they would want to showcase their products and play to its strengths..so I will give the Ushers the benefit of the doubt that they were not paired with the right electronics..but, I heard the BE718 in the Ultra Fi room as well..and while it was an improvement..no way was it better than the other speakers I mentioned earlier.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

My question is that when a company like Usher bringstheir gear to important shows such as the ones above, they would want to showcase their products and play to its strengths..so

This is one part I have never understood as well ! I have heard Wilson Alexandria speakers with goldmund electronics setup so badly in a hotel room for the singapore hifi exhibition..a Totem Arro sounded better !!
Sometimes Distributors just dont care about the setup..just about the display of the Brand.

Bright speakers with lean bass ? Oh boy ! I am begining to to think it just may be the whole package rather than the speaker only.

My brother has a pair of usher floorstanders and he just about hates the bright + lean signature.
He also runs tubes so maybe they compensate well for the brightness and lean bass ?

I wonder ?

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Bright speakers with lean bass ? Oh boy ! I am begining to to think it just may be the whole package rather than the speaker only. My brother has a pair of usher floorstanders and he just about hates the bright + lean signature. He also runs tubes so maybe they compensate well for the brightness and lean bass ? I wonder ? Manek

Manek. Do you mean he hates the bright+lean signature or the speakers ?
How does it sound in his system ?

Square...

He does not like the lean bass+bright tweeter signature.

He says they sound good in his system. I don't remember the model but if they have a floorstander around 4k usd those would be it.

Manek