GOing balanced.is it worth it?

Sachi, from what i have figured out, it is very beneficial in the following cases

1. when you have very long runs of cables (Digital or ICs)
2. where RFI is high, balanced cables provide better performance over single ended
3. where the components are themselved designed as per balanced. e Electrocompaniet and Ayre are two brands than come to mind

not sure of any other

Arj,

Do you have any personal experience where you have compared the same gear in both unbalanced and in balanced configurations and seen a difference worth shelling out the money on?

As i am very interested in that..

I know about the technical advantages..but what matters is the subjective gains..

hmm I have 2 experiences ..in my case the thory was not proven right

I had a Electrompaniet Pre for some time. I have used both Balanced and RCa cables between my DAC (Wadia 12 then) and it and found no major observable difference.

On the other hand currently my Transport to DAC sounds better with my balanced DH labs digital cable than with an RCA DHlabs cable I used to test. the sound was much more smooth and had a better flow to it..although i doubt if i would have recognized the difference Blind

I did discuss it with many folks and they all mentioned the points i mentioned in the above posts. So personally I would not shell out any extra money for balanced


Apparently most equipment today do have a balanced connector (which is a market need rather than a technical one) but internally they do not really used balanced design which really defeats the purpose !

what compoennt are you looking at ?

I just started out on a project to build a
B22 amplifier and wondering whether to build a balanced amp with the possibility to drive two unbalanced headphones as well..or just go for a basic single ended amplifier.

I am looking to build something similar to this..
http://www.amb.org/audio/beta22/gallery/cotdt/cotdt2.jpg

internals
http://www.amb.org/audio/beta22/gallery/cotdt/cotdt5.jpg


I am also undertaking another headphone amp build..a Stacker (single ended) tube amp..so going single ended with the B22 means less time and money spent on it and more to spend on the Stacker

Funny you should ask that sachi.

I just did this comparision an hour ago with a very expensive and highly resolving system...

The difference was not noticable at all ! No sir !

Manek

thanks for the reply Manek..reinforces my decision to go single ended..

My 2cents... a sort of an anti view to the establ;ished thinking.

I had used only Unbalanced equipment all my life, so when I set out to buy myself a "Good" system, I decided that the Preamp MUST have balanced i/p and o/p... based on all the good things I had read in reviews... Balanced would (help) springborad me to the next level.

The only other precondition I set for my Pre Amp was that it MUST have a Remote controlled Volume control.

My current system :
CD Player: Electrocompaniet EMC-1 UP (Balanced and Single Ended but Balanced is Recommended Strongly)

Pre: Audio Research LS-26 (Balanced and Single Ended on Every Input and Output)

Power Amps: Gamut M-200 Monoblocks (Balanced and Single Ended but Balanced is Recommended Strongly)

Speakers Revel Ultima Studio with Transparent Audio Speaker cables.

Interconnects ... currently experimenting on this front with various cables... Balanced and unbalanced.

My conclusion ?


I can hear a diff between Balanced and Single ended on Most Cables.

I did hear ( or Thought I heard ? ) a Slightly easier music flow using Balanced SINE's Top-Of-The-Line interconnects ( $ 700 I think ). Yes, I got to try these in both, Balanced and single ended Avaatar. ( I Liked the SINE Interconnects )

My conclusion, Balanced... OK for one-up-manship, but for sound ... Nah !

The fewer electronic components of Unbalanced, will make a simpler circuit, and probably sound better.... That is My 'un-balanced' opinion

Very interesting...amp_nut am not all that surprised to be honest..but impressive ssytem tough..should definitely make time to drop by and listen to it when i make it over.

thanks for the insights gentlemen..
I am still debating though whether to go ahead and build a balanced amp with the option of driving two unbalanced headphones at the same time as well.

I am thinking of designing it in this fashion

I have not read all posts above carefully. But here is my feedback.

Balacned connection is essential when you have long runs of cables. For short runs like 1 m, you should be okay with RCA. Having said, it also depends on the circuitry of the two devices that you are connecting and also the circuit you use for balanced connection (I've tried transformers and OPAMPS...and prefer the transformer solution).

Expermient and find out what suits you .. its not to say balanced will bad comared to single-ended ... but merely for the sake of science.

Manek schrieb:

Funny you should ask that sachi. I just did this comparision an hour ago with a very expensive and highly resolving system... The difference was not noticable at all ! No sir ! Manek

Interesting.......
What did you use ? If I may ask ...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

My current system : CD Player: Electrocompaniet EMC-1 UP (Balanced and Single Ended but Balanced is Recommended Strongly) Pre: Audio Research LS-26 (Balanced and Single Ended on Every Input and Output) Power Amps: Gamut M-200 Monoblocks (Balanced and Single Ended but Balanced is Recommended Strongly) Speakers Revel Ultima Studio with Transparent Audio Speaker cables. Interconnects ... currently experimenting on this front with various cables... Balanced and unbalanced. My conclusion ? I can hear a diff between Balanced and Single ended on Most Cables. I did hear ( or Thought I heard ? ) a Slightly easier music flow using Balanced SINE's Top-Of-The-Line interconnects ( $ 700 I think ). Yes, I got to try these in both, Balanced and single ended Avaatar. ( I Liked the SINE Interconnects ) My conclusion, Balanced... OK for one-up-manship, but for sound ... Nah ! The fewer electronic components of Unbalanced, will make a simpler circuit, and probably sound better.... That is My 'un-balanced' opinion :Y

Part in Bold - I did not understand. Please do shed some light...
Thanks.

BTW - Nice set up - Congrats.
Sounds Good. Room Plays well too !!

If you do have a choice and if its not at a substantial cost, I would suggest you go balanced. There is not doubt that technically it is better in rejecting RFI...

Balanced Cables are far cheaper to product viz a viz Unbalanced Cables.

The 'defacto' industry for XLR's are Neutrik & they are much much [400 %] cheaper than the Neutrik Pro Fi RCA Connectors.

Hence having RCA Terminated Cables sure are more expensive to produce as compared to XLR Terminated Cables !!!



Some products I have heard / used sound same on RCA & on XLR.
Some sound better on XLR
Some sound better on RCA
I guess, it just depends on the 'way the circuit is layed out' !!! Design Plilosophy of the designer - I guess.

Most [mind this] European designers 'prefer' RCA & Most American designers prefer XLR !! Very Very General Statement. I know.
There are exceptions.
Spectral - USA
Gryphon & GamuT - Europe

But, this is what I have generally observed.....

Hi bhagwan69,

Thanks for your kind words on my room and system sound.

While it is far from ideal, It definately thrills me more than many systems I have heard... and

(as you have often said )

thats what systems should be about ... delivering what the Owner likes, given constraints of budget, room, etc rather than a pursuit of a 'correct' sound.

Balanced Cables are far cheaper to product viz a viz Unbalanced Cables. The 'defacto' industry for XLR's are Neutrik & they are much much [400 %] cheaper than the Neutrik Pro Fi RCA Connectors. Hence having RCA Terminated Cables sure are more expensive to produce as compared to XLR Terminated Cables !!!

The Balanced Connector is WAY more complex than the sigle ended RCA. The ONLY reason the balanced connector is cheaper, is the fact that it is manufactured in ZILLIONS rather than 1000s that the high end RCA ( single ended connector) is manufactured.

Further, the Balanced Wire has 1 more conductor and is also far more complex and expensive to manufacture.

Getting Balanced and Unbalanced interconnects at almost the same price is a Great deal (IMHO) for Balanced users.

Savyasaachi said:

I am thinking of designing it in this fashion

IMHO
The block diagram that you show, has the headpone driven in Bridge Mode... rather than balanced mode.

The balanced or single ended will depend on the Cirkit topology of B22 Boards 1, 2 , 3 & 4 ( all identical, I presume )

Many amps recommend use in Bridge mode ( MBL ) while I think Crown ... more than 2 decades ago had a 1000W bridge amp that was Very Rave reviewed.

Many feel that Bridged sound is Very dynamic and effortless, not so much for the 4X power it can deliver, but the fact that the return path from the load ( speakers / headphones ) does not go thru Ground.

Oops... 1 more thought... getting a 4 gang pot that tracks well will be difficult and / or expensive ... (DACT)

But then, I guess you are in persuit of high end, and have budgetted accordingly ...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

My current system : CD Player: Electrocompaniet EMC-1 UP (Balanced and Single Ended but Balanced is Recommended Strongly)

Hey thats a very nice and smooth CDP..especially the transport section which is about as good as high end does !

Thanks, Arj,

It uses the Philips Pro mechanism, like the one you are using.

Electrocompaniet also offers a "Spider" Clamp for the CD, which makes a HUGE difference to the sound... bass tightens up and the entire sound opens up... like Grunge cleared.

IMHO the difference is So significant, that the CDP should Not be sold without it !

The reson I am mentioning this, is that I am sure that a similar clamp will make a similar difference to your Transport too.... Maybe someone is aware of such as accessory, from a 3rd party vendor, for all CD Pro mechanisms ?

See the Pic at :

http://www.pbase.com/2c3d/image/34846827

Very nice CDP amp nut..envious now...

Mine is not a CDM Pro2..it a CDM 12.4.not as good as the Pro

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Thanks, Arj, It uses the Philips Pro mechanism, like the one you are using. Electrocompaniet also offers a "Spider" Clamp for the CD, which makes a HUGE difference to the sound... bass tightens up and the entire sound opens up... like Grunge cleared. IMHO the difference is So significant, that the CDP should Not be sold without it ! The reson I am mentioning this, is that I am sure that a similar clamp will make a similar difference to your Transport too.... Maybe someone is aware of such as accessory, from a 3rd party vendor, for all CD Pro mechanisms ? See the Pic at : http://www.pbase.com/2c3d/image/34846827

This clamp looks like a clamp that is used by Bow Technologies in their ZZ Eight CD Player - I heard that many many years back in Singapore - 2003 I think.

If it makes 'such a diff' then why does Electrocompaniet not supply the CD Player with that clamp as 'standard' ???
I wonder...

What is the Transport that ARJ has ?

Arj, I think the clamp or anything similar will do its magic on any Top loading mech .... like the Bow, mentioned by Bhagwan69

bhagwan89 said :

If it makes 'such a diff' then why does Electrocompaniet not supply the CD Player with that clamp as 'standard' ??? I wonder...

Good question, Sir !

Specially when the player costs as much as it does...

At the price of the spider, I guess its a Considerable extra Money in the bank.... so why give it away free

Arj schrieb:

Mine is not a CDM Pro2..it a CDM 12.4.not as good as the Pro :(

Arj,

EC uses the CDM transport, not the more expensive CD-PRO2M/K. Do note that the - CDM can also be used as a top loading mechanism with some small mods.

Which means, the transport you have can also be used as a top loading one with a puck.

Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

EC uses the CDM transport, not the more expensive CD-PRO2M/K. Do note that the - CDM can also be used as a top loading mechanism with some small mods.

Hey Siva missed out on this post. This is really interesting. I am presuming the mods are more mechanical in nature than electronic.