Approaches to putting together a hifi system.

...and not to forget 'reviews'...

This product is reviewed favourably by a lot of reviewers/mags, so it must be good...or...
This product is raved about by a lot of forum members so this would be good...

I guess I’ll just add my philosophy.
1. Overall system approach rather than a piece-meal approach.
I feel a music system has to be designed keeping in mind the character of all the individual components and how they will create music if put together. For this, one needs extensive knowledge of what is available in the market and how they sound with other equipment.

2. I feel it is better to know the “school of thought” a particular designer follows when you buy their equipment. This usually defines the “ house sound” of any brand. This is more important than knowing what other’s (reviewers) think about it.

3. Once the system is put together, the system has to sound very resolving and as close to neutral as possible considering the amount spend on the equipment. For this, comparison to live is the key. Listening to the music as a “whole” rather than parts is also important.

4. Reliability.

All other issues like brand, china, materials, using cables as tone controls are all useless for me. Brand is an issue if you buy and sell often.

i can sense a long discussion on this one
i presume this will be the same for most products that we buy ? i believe it follows the same consumer behaviour trend..with the difference that it is a bit more of a "Speciality" product.

hence there will be the innovators who will go purely by personal experience, Experiencers who will go by secondary knowledge in Media/reviews. most of us would lie in an area between the two broad ends of the spectrum


So I guess when one talks about what made him/her go for a product in the end we are getting an insight into what governs that person..personnaly I would be vey surprised if the majority of folks are not influenced by the Brand... but there will always be some who will go purely by what they want

my philosophy is quite simple....

TOOBS !

The more I hear them, the more I drawn towards them.

manek.

if it makes music and encourages you to listen to one more song/ album thats my system.

also second squarewave on the philosophy of the designer. that way one knows what the compromises/ sound is going to be like. of course, taking with pinch of salt most manufacturer's claims of 'making music' 'awesome clarity' etc...


re point 4, the cheaper the better

What happens if you put together a system you are happy with?
Get out of HiFi and stop babbling at the forum.
Moral of the story: make doubly sure your system is never perfect/balanced/one brand/synergetic etc. Hell, audio is about upgrading and faddism, who cares about the music. Anyone want to buy my perfectly balanced system. (Just joking). Honestly my Audio analogue primo cento and proac tabs are sounding so good, that it will take minor insanity on my part to upgrade. However I miss being able to nit pick. The only thing left is a sub-woofer... Amen
Purnendu

purnendu schrieb:

The only thing left is a sub-woofer... Amen Purnendu

well it would initially be the subwoofer..then you would hear of this DAC which does great things and then a small reclocker..after that the speaker would suddenly be the bottleneck and hence time for an upgrade..but hell the amp is just not powerful enough hence that is the next target..

upgrades never end..as needs never end.

An your point on

Get out of HiFi and stop babbling at the forum.

in some strange way makes a lot of sense ! in this case ignorance (Of newer and better products) is actually bliss !

Arj schrieb:

purnendu schrieb: The only thing left is a sub-woofer... Amen Purnendu well it would initially be the subwoofer..then you would hear of this DAC which does great things and then a small reclocker..after that the speaker would suddenly be the bottleneck and hence time for an upgrade..but hell the amp is just not powerful enough hence that is the next target..

hey, Arjun, you forgot to bitch about the cables not being up-to-par & needing a major upgrade!

Arj schrieb:

upgrades never end..as needs never end.

this hobby ain't no "need".....it's a "WANT"!!

Hi,

Let's stir up things a bit.

In order to select an audio system, with whatever philosophy you propose, you have to have some music to listen to. What music - here's another opinion:

www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/49776.html

"In Reply to: The shortcomings of 'high-end' sound posted by njjohn on March 3, 2007 at 15:06:46:


You nailed it down: the "high end sound", the trademark sound of the decade is the sound that wants to (and does) impress, yet it is impersonal, without integrity, balance, and soul. Shows how impressive machine and technology is. It favors the presentation of those players, who are virtuoso with their instruments, and can play with exceptional speed, dynamics, or volume. The play of these performers will really shine on such systems. However, from such preformances you rarely get even a glimpse of what the music has to tell you. You cannot connect to the music itself, only with the virtuosity, the ability of the player, and get the same adrenaline rush that he or she feels.
The other way (real fi is the way to connect to the music. This type of setup will not favor the adrenalin-virtuoso. Their play will be unmasked, without the boost of added clarity, resolution or magnifier-glass-type imaging they will prove to be what they are, you won't be able to connect to them anymore; their brilliant cloak gone you will find that they don't understand the music, and can't connect with it nor connect the music to you. With an A/B test this will show that the real fi system has less in every aspect, because the spectacular performance degrades to a simple performance, where tha player tries to outdo its peers in one aspect or another.
The high end sound requires the "audiofile" labels, specially engineered records with special performers. The real fi systems let you play any work from interpreters, who connect to the music, and let you enjoy it even from mp3, (heavens protect the audiofiliac for saying such heresy.;)
From my point of view, the sound and music is the most powerful teacher that we have, that can affect our life at the deepeest level. Real fi begins when we can connect deeply to the recorded music, when music fills more than the air. When music can break a long standing depressed mood, cure from a cold, or cheer you up and give back your will of life after a trying long day. This is a most fragile link.

LOL, the difference between high end sound and real fi sound is like the the one between sex and love....... For the observer both look the same thing, but on the personal level it is something entirely different. For the same reason, real fi is also something very subjective, most personal. High end is the exact opposite, the ultimate impersonal shine and glamour, the biggest breasted woman with the most sex partners in the highest budget porn movie.


long live DIY!

Janos"


Viren.

viren schrieb:

High end is the exact opposite, the ultimate impersonal shine and glamour, the biggest breasted woman with the most sex partners in the highest budget porn movie. Viren.

Can i get a copy of that movie?

Nice said Viren....

regards,
Sandeep

viren schrieb:

Hi, Let's stir up things a bit. In order to select an audio system, with whatever philosophy you propose, you have to have some music to listen to. What music - here's another opinion: www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/49776.html "In Reply to: The shortcomings of 'high-end' sound posted by njjohn on March 3, 2007 at 15:06:46: You nailed it down: the "high end sound", the trademark sound of the decade is the sound that wants to (and does) impress, yet it is impersonal, without integrity, balance, and soul. Shows how impressive machine and technology is. It favors the presentation of those players, who are virtuoso with their instruments, and can play with exceptional speed, dynamics, or volume. The play of these performers will really shine on such systems. However, from such preformances you rarely get even a glimpse of what the music has to tell you. You cannot connect to the music itself, only with the virtuosity, the ability of the player, and get the same adrenaline rush that he or she feels. The other way (real fi is the way to connect to the music. This type of setup will not favor the adrenalin-virtuoso. Their play will be unmasked, without the boost of added clarity, resolution or magnifier-glass-type imaging they will prove to be what they are, you won't be able to connect to them anymore; their brilliant cloak gone you will find that they don't understand the music, and can't connect with it nor connect the music to you. With an A/B test this will show that the real fi system has less in every aspect, because the spectacular performance degrades to a simple performance, where tha player tries to outdo its peers in one aspect or another. The high end sound requires the "audiofile" labels, specially engineered records with special performers. The real fi systems let you play any work from interpreters, who connect to the music, and let you enjoy it even from mp3, (heavens protect the audiofiliac for saying such heresy.;) From my point of view, the sound and music is the most powerful teacher that we have, that can affect our life at the deepeest level. Real fi begins when we can connect deeply to the recorded music, when music fills more than the air. When music can break a long standing depressed mood, cure from a cold, or cheer you up and give back your will of life after a trying long day. This is a most fragile link. LOL, the difference between high end sound and real fi sound is like the the one between sex and love....... For the observer both look the same thing, but on the personal level it is something entirely different. For the same reason, real fi is also something very subjective, most personal. High end is the exact opposite, the ultimate impersonal shine and glamour, the biggest breasted woman with the most sex partners in the highest budget porn movie. long live DIY! Janos" Viren.

Viren,
this njjohn's post is harping on the old topic of musicality vs. accuracy & whether one can have only 1 of these items or both in playback. From my limited experience I believe that one can have both.

He is also saying that commercial audio manuf are out to make a profit only & care very little (if anything at all) about the music playback sound. Hence DIY is the route to take if one cares about the music.
Some very valid points on atleast 2 very old topics. There are some commercial manuf that make audio gear servicing the music. A few.....but they do exist.

[quote="bombaywalla"]
hey, Arjun, you forgot to bitch about the cables not being up-to-par & needing a major upgrade!
[/quote]

Heh heh..the thought did cross my mind but thought ill step out of that one

[quote="bombaywalla"]
this hobby ain't no "need".....it's a "WANT"!! [/quote]

True ..very true

Virenji..this one is the Quote of the year for me-
[quote="viren"]
LOL, the difference between high end sound and real fi sound is like the the one between sex and love....... [/quote]
..I guess it is both together that we all need..ahem-ahem Want

I agree with njjohn on some aspects especially when hi-end manufacturers stress on the need for diamond tweeters with hyper-extended frequency ranges and such devices to get the best out of your recordings………
But I feel musicality and accuracy can go together. In fact what we need is a balanced mixture of the two to achieve a connection with the performer.

I remember my visit to Siva’s house last weekend. Total connection with the performer was what I experienced with his reference speakers, valve preamp and his new assembled transport / dac combo. The approach is what is important rather than ultra expensive / hyped up devices.

square....
siva's new assembled transport+dac....which transport ? the cd drives or the philips transport ? any ideas ?

Dac is the Reimyo. The transport is one which Siva is working on. Uses the same parts as some super hi-end brands. I guess siva will be able to throw more light on this. PM Him.

Manek,

It is based on CD-PRO2M module....For this project, either you have to be a s/w engineer...or you would need the help of a s/w engineer

Regards
Siva.

I do not think it is correct to "fully" blame the manufacturers. To a large extent it is also the consumers who demand "specific" types of product...and they supply the same.

For example, The VanDenHul cables are so highly regarded. I do not think it is because they are great cables by themself, but because they are made to a specific audience.

I believe VanDenHul, round's off the highs (i've heard three models of this brand) ....and in systems where there is high level of distortion (which causes harshness), this cable might seem to be a good fit.

But the question is .... is this the right way to build a system ??.

Regards
Siva.

square_wave schrieb:

Dac is the Reimyo.

cool DAC..I presume its one of the smoothest sounding and accurate DACs in the Market

Arj schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Dac is the Reimyo. cool DAC..I presume its one of the smoothest sounding and accurate DACs in the Market

Yup…..very smooth and neutral / accurate.

sivat schrieb:

But the question is .... is this the right way to build a system ??. Regards Siva.

A very good question. so many times have we heard on my cdp is bright hence i will use a warm amp.

right or wrong i guess depends on how you look at it..but expecting that system to be accurate would be silly as now there are 2 levels of distortion.

But if this is being done to make the sound as near to as one would want it with the constraints on cost and availability , it is a different game altogether.

Siva would you be referring to the "DSA commands" (if I remember the term right) which control the transport unit ?

not very tough to find software programmers in bangalore atleast .....

BTW what do you make of many manufacturers using cdrom, cdrw and sometimes dvd roms as transport devices nowadays ?
How do they measure up ? moded or otherwise ?

I know a couple of people who tell me that many universal players start to sound a bit edgy mid-cd(denon, marantz etc). One person I know has recorded one long piece 5-6 times on the same cd and has drawn the conclusion that the same pieces sound edgy after the first 20 minutes of play.

Can you throw light on this ?

Manek.

Manek said :

I know a couple of people who tell me that many universal players start to sound a bit edgy mid-cd(denon, marantz etc). One person I know has recorded one long piece 5-6 times on the same cd and has drawn the conclusion that the same pieces sound edgy after the first 20 minutes of play.

Interesting Gyan... new to me.

My theory to expalin this ( I am Not saying the edgy sound is a fact ) would be that beyond the 1st 20 minutes.... means on the Outer 66% of the CD... the Disc wobble probably causes higher read errors, and therefore the edgy sound.

I recall... one of the 1st CD Transports by THETA, more than a decade ago, used an LD ( 12 inch dia Laser Disc for video ) mech.

The reason ... the mech could handle a 12 inch, Heavy optical disc well, so should do even better with a 5 inch CD.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I recall... one of the 1st CD Transports by THETA, more than a decade ago, used an LD ( 12 inch dia Laser Disc for video ) mech. The reason ... the mech could handle a 12 inch, Heavy optical disc well, so should do even better with a 5 inch CD.

you know what......my friend used to have this very Theta CD transport. It was the Theta Data Pro or something like that. It had a 12" drawer used for LDs with a sub-platter for the CD.
My friend had that transport for a long time (10+ years) before he switched to something else only 4 yrs ago. The Theta unit had gotten so old that Theta was not willing to service it anymore.
Ironic that you should bring up this venerable CD transport!

Manek,

The S/W also needs to control the menu...etc., Since i have not spent much time doing this, the transport is kind of awkward to control..

In terms of sound, it is definetly far better than Marantz SA8400 and Pioneer 733A Universal(when used as a transport). However, i'm not in a position to argue about which will be better..... in terms of either scientic facts or theory.

I guess the results have spoken for itself.... I would trust a regular PCM only transport

Regards
Siva.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I recall... one of the 1st CD Transports by THETA, more than a decade ago, used an LD ( 12 inch dia Laser Disc for video ) mech. The reason ... the mech could handle a 12 inch, Heavy optical disc well, so should do even better with a 5 inch CD.

heard on the same note that the XBOX (or was it playstation) being an excellent transport for the same reason..very stable platter

Hi Arj,

Could you elaborate on that, please ?

I would like to know more....

Dont XBox and PS-2 use a standard DVD ( Digital Versatile Disc ) ?.... I am Not a gamer, so Very ignorant about these things...

Then their mechchanical ability would, in principle be simailar to a similarly engineered DVD drive ?

hey I had a friend who also had that transport with a 12 inch drawer but was "enligtened audio" if I'm not mistaken.

manek.