Which one is more reliable.Mass marketed or High end

This is actually true except for some hi-end manufacturers who give importance to the engineering and reliability issues. I feel it is mostly due to the fact that, some hi-end manufacturers have to operate within a certain “budget constraint’ while delivering the maximum quality for the buck. So they tend to concentrate more on the quality of parts or rather parts that give the best sound according to their/target audience ears and tend to ignore the engineering and reliability issues. This approach is ok if the target audience are hobbyists with lot of money and understand basic electronics and know what they are getting into. But the common man is in trouble if something goes wrong especially if the manufacturer is in some other country. Another issue is the sensitivity of high-end electronics. They are sensitive by nature and tolerance value would be certainly less than main-stream electronics and therefore prone to problems if not taken care of.

Good Point, ani

I concur with you.

Hi End products are often built by Audio Enthusiasts, sometimes DIYers, and Often Not by engineers with Production, Quality Assurance and reliability experience...

What is more reliable ?
Formula F1 Car
or
BMW [3 or 5 series] / Mercedes [C or E Class]

My point being;
One is engineered for custommer satisfaction & the other for pure performance.

In the persuit of that there is a very very fine line between reliability / durability & extreme state of the art performance.

You will never have a 'commercial' mass market CD player that will up sample to 4. somthing Mhzs will you. However the new Wadia decoding computer does that, hence its stability gets compromised & price goes high.
You may never come across any mass producted amplifier that works in pure class A. There are many such examples I can site.

ani schrieb:

Specialist hi end manufactureres are so obsessed with one or two aspects and do tend to miss out on some basic engineering.

So true.

Guys above...what you've said is so true, but still...stating that the product is built for pure performance is not an excuse for being unreliable. In fact, performance and reliability should not be taken as two separate, mutually exclusive entities. To say that a piece of equipment is a good performer should also mean that it is a consistent performer. If you are expecting consumers to spend huge amount of money to buy a product, don't you feel that it is the manufacturer's responsibility to provide a product that would last as well? If they are obsessed enthusiasts, let them make the machine and keep it to themselves. If you bring it to market, it should be treated as any other marketable product, however exotic it may be.

F1 cars are made for an entirely different purpose. You do not expect car enthusiasts to buy it and drive it around town. A more closer analogy would be a Buggati and a Beemer...the former is an exclusive custom-built machine and the other is an exotic mass-market (dare I say that!!!) product...both are expensive. Both are excellent example of quality engineering...and both are reliable...

My $0.02

soulforged...agree with your analogy....F1 cars, as you know are competition cars and are made/tuned for a race. Those wont survive more than a day in the real world.

So top performing production cars in my books need to have reliability built into their performance(to me reliability day in and day out is part and parcel of performance)and methinks high end equipment must have reliability built into its performance characteristics.

Manek.

What is more reliable ? Formula F1 Car or BMW [3 or 5 series] / Mercedes [C or E Class]

Premier Padmini

To say that a piece of equipment is a good performer should also mean that it is a consistent performer.

The most bang on statement in this thread...

Bhagwan,

I would say that there are top performing as well as reliable F1 cars like Renault and Ferrari (not that reliable or fast). Take the case of Maclaren Merc or BMW give them the right track and conditions they may be laps ahead, but say if the temp goes up by a degree the engine blows!

If you take the case of mass produced cars like BMW and Merc yes they are reliable compared to what competition has to offer, At the same time we have to keep in mind the Lexus

Regards


Anil

Speakers are - by thumb rule - generally reliable. They will not stop performing - unless they are ill treated and abused.
So, under the domain of speakers - mass produced and hi-fi there is no problem.

The problem comes when we look at power amps & cd players.
Here the reliability of Hi-Fi sure has a lot left to be desired.

If I take the example of CD Players, every high end cd manufacturer has to depend on a mass market cd transport & chip set to begin with. When that is 'souped up' and 'tweaked' its life gets reduced. That is why it fails. Lens dies or transport stops working etc.

If you take the case of mass produced cars like BMW and Merc yes they are reliable compared to what competition has to offer, At the same time we have to keep in mind the Lexus

So what are the Merc, BMW and Lexus equivalents in the Audiophile industry ?
I suspect that would be a more difficult consensus to reach than for cars ?

I suppose merc and bmw are pretty high up in the chain. Very good quality, but some would complain more hype than substance. Maybe something like B&W?
Lexus, being the luxury arm of toyota, could be like onkyo and integra. No wait...thats too cheap...need a better analogy here

High-end cameras compared to mass-market cameras, are much better quality, much better performance, much better built and a lot more durable. They deliver consistent performance over their entire life - a rather long life.

Why shouldn't HiFi audio gear?

F1 cars is a wrong analogy? These are extreme examples of a highly specialized use?

Ampnut this is what comes to my mind

Merc -> Mark Levinson
BMW -> B&W
Rolls (old) -> Gryphon
Bentley -> Audio Research
Lexus -> LINN
Jaguar (original unreliable one) -> Perreaux

Dear doctor, your camera analogy has a basic flaw, you are comparing products from the same company meant for different user segments. They are all designed and produced by the same company to different standards, but the basic engineering skills are of the same caliber.

Note.: Keep away from branded film SLR cameras of Nikon

F1 cars is a wrong analogy? These are extreme examples of a highly specialized use?

Absolutely. F1 cars are simply not supposed to work flawlessly for a long time. They are excepted to last only over the race weekend. They'll be taken apart after that anyways.

ani schrieb:

Ampnut this is what comes to my mind Merc -> Mark Levinson BMW -> B&W Rolls (old) -> Gryphon Bentley -> Audio Research Lexus -> LINN Jaguar (original unreliable one) -> Perreaux Dear doctor, your camera analogy has a basic flaw, you are comparing products from the same company meant for different user segments. They are all designed and produced by the same company to different standards, but the basic engineering skills are of the same caliber. Note.: Keep away from branded film SLR cameras of Nikon ;)

Hi !

Philips is the mass market arm and Marantz is HiFi division which too has different levels of offerings - entry level to so called signature series. Its not too far away from the Nikon & Canon philosophy.

You adviced me to stay away from Nikon SLRs - I have 3 of them - 2 film & 1 digital ! I don't have the 80-200D ED IF F2.8 Lens that's your avtar

Dear Doctor you have got me wrong, I said to keep away from film SLR's that is sourced from OEM and branded by Nikon. eg. FM10 FE10 kind of stuff unless you want it for some particular reason.

BTW my avatar is not the 80-200 it is 200-400mm AFS F4 VR

I know FM 10 are mass market stuff.

But what I have is F80, N5005 & D70.

And if you were to look at their FM2, F3, F4 , F5, etc. - these are rock solid built cameras.

BTW how's 200-400 VR lens and which body do you have?

Hi,

You have a bunch of Nikon's well engineered cameras doc.

I dont own that lens and it is not in my list of 'to buys' 400AFS f2.8 and TC17 is what I have in mind

I tried the 80-400 VR and it made me confirm my mind that zooms and slower lenses are not going to give me the pics that I am looking for.

Anil

Hi All,
Do you think we can fit the Maruti 800 in all the analogies that seem to be flying around. I have had two of them so far- sold one and bought another! Anyone care to nominate the M800 of H-FI. Another poll. If its cameras we want to compare then I nominate my pentax K1000. 22 years hard duty and going strong.

Anyhow my take on exotica is that its also a matter of luck. My first serious kit was a cyrus amp and what a dissappointment it was? I doubt if I would ever buy a Cyrus again or recommend it to anyone. On the other hand my jap cdp and tape worked fine for years and years. So much for british built. The thing about cheap hi end is that there are a lot of compromises in order to get good sound, so you do need to keep tweaking the stuff, as was the case with my NAd tt. However to be fair to cheap hi-end my valve amp Lyrita Integrated has been working - hard working- and I have no regrets. I would call it my Hindustan Ambassador.
Purnendu

Anyone care to nominate the M800 of H-FI.

NAD 3020 and its sucessors ?

Probably, but it does not reportedly have much of a support service system. A M800 can be repaired anywhere. The NAD dealers wont even eply to a price query. One has has to take these things into considering, or not.
Purnendu

more population or more problems calls for more service centres

ani schrieb:

I am not sure about posting this here. Mass produced Japanese (east asian origin) gear are more reliable than that from most Hi end specialist manufacturers ! Reason to belive so, had very few problems with Marantz, Teac, Philips,Onkyo, Sony, Monitor Audio and B&W that I was fortunate to own and use. They may be average or below average in performance but you are able to enjoy the same performance level during its life time without major hic ups. Mass produced products are better engineered and could afford to utilise the benefits of larger scale of operation. Specialist hi end manufactureres are so obsessed with one or two aspects and do tend to miss out on some basic engineering. I would like to hear valuable views of forum members on this subject.

Ani, These are very good and relevant points..but a question that perhaps needs to be answered before is that if we have reliability Vs Sound Quality being plotted as a graph.. at which point would ones individual "Sweet Spot" lie in

and of course both are important..

Arj,

we all want to get the maximum for the money we spend. So the sweet spot will always be at one spot, max quality and reliability. Say take the case of tyres, most high performance tyres (the sticky ones) dont last the kind miles a premium touring car tyre do. The lower life is the premium you pay for extra grip and we have to accept it, just as in the case of hi octane fuel giving you lower fuel efficiency.

Why should a quality product be unreliable because of poor engineering ?


Warm regards

Anil

My experience with mass market elctronic equipment has'nt been so good.Not the very old ones,but the recently purchased ones.Eg. sony hifi,DVD,which i've serviced recently.I think High-end products are well engineered too.Probably yours is an isolated case.BTW what problem you had with yor Marantz and MA speakers
I think ,even high-end companies,cannot afford to be un-reliable,as they to too face severe competition.They need to survive.So i think they are engineered better.

No problem with my Marantz or MA, they are mass produced MiFi products and reliable too.

Can we get down to specifics in this thread. Let's list the brands we have used and their reliability.
My experiences:
1. Pulz amp: 1yr: noise from gain controls (corrected by spraying cleaning fluid), otherwise fine
2. Pulz speakers: 1yr: moss formation on front grills during monsoon (reduced by wiping and onset of dry weather), otherwise fine
3. Friend's DIY loudspeakers with Philips bass driver and Bolton tweeter & crossover: 25 yrs: Fine with just a reconing of bass unit

Overall, so far, hifi seems fairly VFM. I have seen 5-yr warranties on some speakers like Jamo. Don't know whether they are honoured, but I really don't see any major cause for concern.

In contrast, I would assert that the surrounds of drivers made by Sony become very weak after around 10yrs. So I definitely don't believe that boom boxes are more durable than high-end audio.

Neutral schrieb:

In contrast, I would assert that the surrounds of drivers made by Sony become very weak after around 10yrs. So I definitely don't believe that boom boxes are more durable than high-end audio.

10 years - my God ! That is a life time.......

I have not been in the audio hobby for that long.

If things last for 2 - 3 years it is good.
Time to change - up grade them !!!
No No Just kidding.

Sir, 10 years is a generation. How long do you want your audio gear to serve you ?

Neutral schrieb:

Overall, so far, hifi seems fairly VFM. I have seen 5-yr warranties on some speakers like Jamo. Don't know whether they are honoured, but I really don't see any major cause for concern.

Speakers do not need any warranty.
They will only fail if they are mis used.
Under Driven or Over Driven.
Over time, the magnetic flux [tesla] of the driver may reduce. But, you may not be in a position to tell the difference, since it is very very slow and over a very long period of time.

It the electronics that have a problem.

CD Transports + Transistors & Power Supplies etc and things that mis behave and tend to fail.

Overall, so far, hifi seems fairly VFM. I have seen 5-yr warranties on some speakers like Jamo. Don't know whether they are honoured, but I really don't see any major cause for concern

That 5 year Jamo warranty means nothing. I own a Jamo speaker which was not satisfactory from day 1. Complained to Cinebells, usual excuse wait till they break in.

After 6 months of break in, same sound. Promised that an Engineer will look into the problem. No sight of any Engineer. In the recent AV show in Mumbai there was a Jamo stall. Enquired like a newcomer about the warranty issue. As was expected they gave a big sales talk and then I presented my case. They were all apologetic and promised to send the Engineer over. Still waiting for the "Engineer" although I dont require him now, the problem has been fixed long ago.

so what was the problem behram ?

The crossover network values were not proper.

wierd...

to think mass market speakers would get that right and some kind of quality check would be prevalent.

Manek.

Oh there goes my theory along with Behram's Jamo

Behram schrieb:

The crossover network values were not proper.

I appreciate your knowledge, Behram

Most folks would not realise this. And would pass it off as just the speakers sounding that way. I guess the gist of this is that the drivers are more reliable, whereas the electronic components in a speaker can act weird or fail.

BTW, electronics (amps & players) are fairly cheap nowadays, compared to speakers. So, I guesss, if one gets 5 to 10 yrs of service, one can afford a failure after that.
Entry level:
DVD player: 3,500
Amp: within 15,000
So no need to get hyper.

But, if it's hi-end audiophile stuff, then it will really hurt if it breaks down within 2-3 yrs. I can imagine Doc Dhawan's pain at having his equipment stolen a few months ago.

Sorry to hear about doc Dhawan's theft, was it insured. does anyone here insure his stuff?

However, theft is different from a breakdown? You cant blame the company for theft, and when expensive stuff doesnt work properly its exasperating. However this sort of thing happens in other fields also. For instance the likelihood of goofing up when you are trying to write a path breaking type of academic paper is much greater than than when one is grinding out routine stuff. Its the latter guys who make money, the former kinds just become more and more unpopular, and a target of jibes, until ofcourse they come up with some thing that everone has just got to admit is special. Unfortunately it doesnt happen too often, and it hasnt happend to me!! Not yet anyhow...
Purnendu

Going thru the specs of today's slimline DVD players one cant help noticing that the Audio DAC specifies an impressive 24 Bit / 192 khz. Here are the specs :

DVS 562M DVD Player

Key Features :
Compact DVD Player : One of the slimmest players in the market today
DVS players truly customized to Indian conditions : Operates within a wide voltage range (90-270 V) and upto 55o temperature.
Easy upgradation to a DVD Home Theatre System
Multi-format Playability
DVD Video/ DVD + R/ DVD + RW/ VCD/ Audio CD/ CD - R/ CD # RW/ MP3/ Kodak Picture CD/ JPEG CD
Dolby Digital/ DTS Digital
192 KHz/ 24 Bit Audio DAC
Composite/ S Video
Digital Coaxial/ Optical Output
NTSC/ PAL Output
GUI Menu Operation
Progressive Scan
L/R Stereo & 5.1 Channel Out

All this for Rs.2199/-. How does it actually sound compared to our older and much rugged audio only CD players specified DAC 16bit /44khz ? Anyone ever had a comparison done ?

Behram.

To add some :

Do we use Hi-end and mass marketed products in the same manner??? I don't atleast.

I Keep my Hifi clean,very clean.. handle it with extreme care, play CD's after cleaning them with soft cloth and use buttons with delicacy as we would touch a baby's cheek...remote is used only when necesary..

But mass market stuff like my DVDP ..it's been ages since I cleaned the CD's which go into it and forget cleaning the player..abuse the buttons and push the tray before it goes in....Switch the mains off when the player is playing.. , play all kinds of crap CD's in it which are lying in a box... Only experiment is I have not tried whether it plays if kept upside down.. hey but it works perfect inspite of all torture..

So IMHO mass market products are better in relaibility.

Hi-end are like girlfriends as you need to pamper them to be normal and functional..

. and mass products are like your ex girl friends...

Hi-end are like girlfriends as you need to pamper them to be normal and functional.. . and mass products are like your ex girl friends...

Tu paagal hai...................

Abhi, our Tiger became active...lots of fun now..

Try abusing an ex and you will see who the tiger is……………….