Head Fi - The cheaper option?

A year ago in Singapore I heard the HD600, the HD 650 and I THINK the HD 580, all at the same shop demo...

Hardly a Great Demo, it was at Sim-Lim.....

However I was APPALLED at the sound quality of the cheapest of the 3. It was FAR worse than many Half-That-Price Senns. The sound was Muffled, and no detail, no resolution, and dowright bland. I was dissappointed that Senn even released such a commercial product at this price point, and the lasting impression on my mind is Not To Buy Senns Blind... without listning to them.

That is why, when I recently bought In Ear Phones from HK, I kept FAR away from Senns, since no one will allow a listne to In Ear phone, as much as any one will alow you to try on underwear before buying

My biggest regret is that I do Not recall the Lousy sounding Senn model number. Maybe it was Not the 580. But the point is that a cheaper model sounded just AWEFUL, and I dont think it was damaged, it just sounded shabby.... worse than Down the line products from Senn.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

My biggest regret is that I do Not recall the Lousy sounding Senn model number. Maybe it was Not the 580. But the point is that a cheaper model sounded just AWEFUL, and I dont think it was damaged, it just sounded shabby.... worse than Down the line products from Senn.

It was HD-595..if I remember correctly .

Amp_Nut schrieb:

A year ago in Singapore I heard the HD600, the HD 650 and I THINK the HD 580, all at the same shop demo... Hardly a Great Demo, it was at Sim-Lim..... However I was APPALLED at the sound quality of the cheapest of the 3. It was FAR worse than many Half-That-Price Senns. The sound was Muffled, and no detail, no resolution, and dowright bland. I was dissappointed that Senn even released such a commercial product at this price point, and the lasting impression on my mind is Not To Buy Senns Blind... without listning to them. That is why, when I recently bought In Ear Phones from HK, I kept FAR away from Senns, since no one will allow a listne to In Ear phone, as much as any one will alow you to try on underwear before buying My biggest regret is that I do Not recall the Lousy sounding Senn model number. Maybe it was Not the 580. But the point is that a cheaper model sounded just AWEFUL, and I dont think it was damaged, it just sounded shabby.... worse than Down the line products from Senn.

Well the general consensus is that HD 580 and HD 600 are really very similar and it is hard to differentiate between the two.
Also these phones need good amplification to shine cos they are much harder to drive. I am guessing you just got a bad phone from the store.

vjcritic schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Buddy Vjcritic, I have listened to HD-580 but I anyday prefer my MS-1 over it (amplified or not doesnt matter). But the same MS-1 was a "chota bachha" infront of HD-650. So you see, the 650 is a huge step ahead of the other Senns. Do listen to it. Its an awesome all-rounder unlike the other Senns and Grados. It plays any genre of music with superb musicality. Please listen to it at the earliest opportunity ;) MS 1 and HD 650 is not really a fair comparison. HD 650 is more than three times the cost. But anyway will sure listen to the 650 when i get the chance. :)

Buddy, MS-1 has been largely favoured over SR-125 and is actually compared to SR-225 (thats the reason of their extreme VFM)...I have even listened to MS-1 side by side to RS-1 (though out of an ipod) and MS-1 was not a slouch then (I am sure, with amplification the RS-1 would be far superior). But the same MS-1 was nothing compared to 650 (through the headphone out) .

abhi,

Hows the performance of MS-1 with PA2V2? Me too on a look out for an headphone amp for my MS-1...

abhi.pani schrieb:

Buddy Vjcritic, I have listened to HD-580 but I anyday prefer my MS-1 over it (amplified or not doesnt matter).

The HD580 will eat the MS1s...give them good amplification and a good source...they jsut keep scaling with the electronics...not so with the MS1..u start hitting the limits fairly soon.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Buddy Vjcritic, I have listened to HD-580 but I anyday prefer my MS-1 over it (amplified or not doesnt matter). The HD580 will eat the MS1s...give them good amplification and a good source...they jsut keep scaling with the electronics...not so with the MS1..u start hitting the limits fairly soon.

Wouldnt comment as I have not heard them with really high end amplification. But with entry level amplification (not ipods) the MS-1 was far ahead .

My PA2V2 has got lost in the postal transit. I need to go and figure in the post office .

Voodoo_CHild schrieb:

abhi, Hows the performance of MS-1 with PA2V2? Me too on a look out for an headphone amp for my MS-1...

I have a PA2V2 and I am not really impressed with it. I just prefer the sound out of my LAPTOP Headphone out. When I am using the IPOD the PA2V2 gives a little bit of volume and drive.

But it no way does it compare to a good Home Amp. I have heard that the GoVibe5 with an ELPAC power supply comes close to a Home AMp. I would also check out MisterX's XPAMP which comes up for sale once in a while. You can check out head-fi for more info.

GoVibe5 is in the same price range as PA2V2. MisterX XPAMP is around $80 in the ForSale forum.

Also MS1 will not really benefit much from an AMP since it is easy to drive. I also have the SR60 and I was listening to it most of the time without the PA2V2.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Buddy Vjcritic, I have listened to HD-580 but I anyday prefer my MS-1 over it (amplified or not doesnt matter). The HD580 will eat the MS1s...give them good amplification and a good source...they jsut keep scaling with the electronics...not so with the MS1..u start hitting the limits fairly soon.

Yes that is what I am hearing too. HD 580 is the best value point in the Sennheiser line. If you ever upgrade to the HD650 I am first in line when your HD 580 comes up for sale

vjcritic schrieb:

I also have the SR60 and I was listening to it most of the time without the PA2V2.

How does your SR60 compare with the higher model SR225? What's the benefit from upgrading?

vjcritic schrieb:

Also MS1 will not really benefit much from an AMP since it is easy to drive. I also have the SR60 and I was listening to it most of the time without the PA2V2.

Hi vjcritic,
I use my MS-1 with a Creative Zen DAP. But I have also listened to it with a Headroom amp and also with a high quality M-Audio sound card (which had a very current output compared to my DAP)...the difference was HUGE.
Direct to DAP was almost nothing compared to Headroom amp or the M-Audio sound card. The Difference was absolute HUGE!!!.

So I feel I need a good headamp sometime in future.

abhi.pani schrieb:

vjcritic schrieb: Also MS1 will not really benefit much from an AMP since it is easy to drive. I also have the SR60 and I was listening to it most of the time without the PA2V2. Hi vjcritic, I use my MS-1 with a Creative Zen DAP. But I have also listened to it with a Headroom amp and also with a high quality M-Audio sound card (which had a very current output compared to my DAP)...the difference was HUGE. Direct to DAP was almost nothing compared to Headroom amp or the M-Audio sound card. The Difference was absolute HUGE!!!. So I feel I need a good headamp sometime in future.

The AMP I meant was the PA2V2. I am sure decent home amps will drive MS1 with authority and sound will be much better. It was just my opinion that the PA2V2 is not on par with my Millet or any other decent home amp and that you would not benefit much from one.

But I sure got some much needed volume with the IPOD/PA2V2 combo.

Neutral schrieb:

vjcritic schrieb: I also have the SR60 and I was listening to it most of the time without the PA2V2. How does your SR60 compare with the higher model SR225? What's the benefit from upgrading?

I was afraid to do Blind testing Afraid I might not find any difference. But the difference becomes apparent after you have used the SR225 for a while. The sound is cleaner and Bass is much more punchier. When you go back to the SR60 you can grasp how much better SR225 was.

When you go back to the SR60 you can grasp how much better SR225 was.

All Grados are like that...the sound signature is so similar that the difference is not so apparent immediately but only after you have spent sometime with the headphone.

Finally its time for me to upgrade from 580 to 650. Just bought a new HD650 for a ridiculously low price from bhphotovideo. Comparisons between the two once I return back to India. Need to build a better headamp as well. Don't think the existing one is good enough for an HD650. I'm 100% sure that the headphone amp-nut is talking about is the 555 or 595 series. They are consumer headphones, not meant for folks like us. IMHO they sound pathetic.

Edit: Anyone claiming that a laptop audio out is good enough for driving any decent headphone is only fooling himself.

Nice going Reign. Can't wait to read your comparo review.

I myself have started bidding on a used pair . currently at 200$ on ebay...

vjcritic schrieb:

Yes that is what I am hearing too. HD 580 is the best value point in the Sennheiser line. If you ever upgrade to the HD650 I am first in line when your HD 580 comes up for sale ;)

and no VJ, i will not put my HD580s up for sale even if i end up upgrading to the HD 650s...

I also just put my Altec Lansing IEMs up for sale.
Too afraid of damaging my ears. To know that they enter the ear canal and the sound waves hit directly on the eardrum scares me. I know it is not much different from a headphone, but an IEM is really pushing it. Regardless of the portability that they offer can't justify losing my hearing over it. Besides, been suffereing from bouts of headache after using it for an hour or so at relatively low/moderate volumes. something i never had(headaches) in my life till now. so bye bye to them. Will replace them with a pair of MS1s or SR225s.

vjcritic wrote: Yes that is what I am hearing too. HD 580 is the best value point in the Sennheiser line. If you ever upgrade to the HD650 I am first in line when your HD 580 comes up for sale

If I may say..the HD580 no more seems to me as the best VFM from the Sennheiser line....the HD-650 at $300 is .
The reason IMO is, the HD-580 still sounds like a $150-200 headphone whereas the HD-650 at $300 sounds and beats many $500-1000 headphones. 580 is plain mid-fi...650 is a serious hifi IMO.

abhi.pani schrieb:

vjcritic schrieb: When you go back to the SR60 you can grasp how much better SR225 was. All Grados are like that...the sound signature is so similar that the difference is not so apparent immediately but only after you have spent sometime with the headphone.

Abhi and VJ, I had the chance to compare my SR60 with a 80. I preferred the SR80. It somehow sounded more powerful and capable, even just out of a computer soundcard. So Grado seems to offer genuine improvement at higher prices. However, it was less comfortable, due to its bowls. Does the SR225 use these bowls or the more comfortable flats?

abhi.pani schrieb:

vjcritic wrote: Yes that is what I am hearing too. HD 580 is the best value point in the Sennheiser line. If you ever upgrade to the HD650 I am first in line when your HD 580 comes up for sale If I may say..the HD580 no more seems to me as the best VFM from the Sennheiser line....the HD-650 at $300 is . The reason IMO is, the HD-580 still sounds like a $150-200 headphone whereas the HD-650 at $300 sounds and beats many $500-1000 headphones. 580 is plain mid-fi...650 is a serious hifi IMO.

Abhi,
Why the price cut for the 650? Have Senn launched a new model. 580 has already been discontinued. Folks like Sachi are lucky

HD-650 is now available at $325...you can look around for a discount as well..

Couldn't resist..
pulled the trigger on a Grado SR 225 ..should have it soon..Btw, sold the IEMs ...woohoo ...

Neutral schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: vjcritic schrieb: When you go back to the SR60 you can grasp how much better SR225 was. All Grados are like that...the sound signature is so similar that the difference is not so apparent immediately but only after you have spent sometime with the headphone. Abhi and VJ, I had the chance to compare my SR60 with a 80. I preferred the SR80. It somehow sounded more powerful and capable, even just out of a computer soundcard. So Grado seems to offer genuine improvement at higher prices. However, it was less comfortable, due to its bowls. Does the SR225 use these bowls or the more comfortable flats?

I am sure it would. I prefer the Grados with the Bowls though. The Bass goes down a bit but the sound is cleaner.
Also you can try reversing the bowls. The sound is somewhere in between flats and bowls and you might like it.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Couldn't resist.. pulled the trigger on a Grado SR 225 ..should have it soon..Btw, sold the IEMs ...woohoo ...

I am sure you will enjoy it. With HD580 and the SR225 you have the best of both worlds.

this is wishfull thinking but.......

reignofchaos, if for whatever reason you dont like the sound of the 650's(wishfull thinking on my part), let me know

I'm right now having a good time with my 580's and viren's tube head amp. It sings with the Kenrad tubes. Currently have EH's in just to break them in. want to know how close the EH's would get to the kenrads with full break in.

Wonder if the 650's are being sold for 300$ here ? Sennheiser India drop any prices lately on the 650's ?

Manek.

Hehe the HD650 won't be going anywhere for sure. I just love its sound signature. What its gonna get is Stefan AudioArt Equinox cables. But thats after the headamp upgrade and a serious car audio upgrade. So it's gonna take a while.

Also whats this tube headamp you are talking about? I need a new amp... was planning to build one but if Viren's amp is good, I definitely might be interested.

vjcritic where are you located? If in bangalore, we could meet up for a mutually benefiting audio appreciation session :D.

I got the Sennheisers from b&h photo video. They are for 325 there. I had a 25$ coupon for basically spending too much on their site and hence managed to get it for 300.

reinofchaos.....

I had the munchies of getting meself a headamp a while ago. Mesa loves the 6SN7 tube and hence was looking to get one made somehow. As good luck would have it Viren uses 6sn7 tubes in his equipment. i spoke to him and he said he could modify his preamp design to accomodate a headphone jack, which he did. I told him about the headphones i would use(the 580's) and he did the output impedance matching. This amp can drive phones ranging from 30ohms right upto 600+ ohms as he gave me 3 taps to chose from for various headphones.

So now I have a 6sn7 based tube preamp with a head out. transformer coupled output and valve rectification.

my fav tube on my preamp and my head amp. I am happy with its performance.

Manek.

reignofchaos schrieb:

vjcritic where are you located? If in bangalore, we could meet up for a mutually benefiting audio appreciation session :D.

I am located in Chennai.

Manek schrieb:

reinofchaos..... I had the munchies of getting meself a headamp a while ago. Mesa loves the 6SN7 tube and hence was looking to get one made somehow. As good luck would have it Viren uses 6sn7 tubes in his equipment. i spoke to him and he said he could modify his preamp design to accomodate a headphone jack, which he did. I told him about the headphones i would use(the 580's) and he did the output impedance matching. This amp can drive phones ranging from 30ohms right upto 600+ ohms as he gave me 3 taps to chose from for various headphones. So now I have a 6sn7 based tube preamp with a head out. transformer coupled output and valve rectification. my fav tube on my preamp and my head amp. I am happy with its performance. Manek.

I would be interested as well in this amp..
you mean to say this is transformer coupled and you have 3 different tappings?

vjcritic schrieb:

reignofchaos schrieb: vjcritic where are you located? If in bangalore, we could meet up for a mutually benefiting audio appreciation session :D. I am located in Chennai.

Cool! Another Chennai forum member. Do PM me if you wish to meet up, vjcritic. I am now mainly into classical music.

yes sachi...

3 different tappings done with a selector switch from the output x-former....

Manek.

Interesting...will get in touch with Viren...

Manek schrieb:

yes sachi... 3 different tappings done with a selector switch from the output x-former.... Manek.

Are these different impedance options possible with solid-state amps too? Must be very convenient to use

Have been listening to the grado for a while now...i must say that so far i prefer the senn over the grado.
I am going to give the grado some more head time so that i can get accustomed to their sound signature and then try switching to the senns...One week of listening ought to be enough say wot...?

If i still don't feel like keeping it then by bye Grado and enter DT990 (briefly heard this and it is fun fun can)

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Have been listening to the grado for a while now...i must say that so far i prefer the senn over the grado. I am going to give the grado some more head time so that i can get accustomed to their sound signature and then try switching to the senns...One week of listening ought to be enough say wot...? If i still don't feel like keeping it then by bye Grado and enter DT990 (briefly heard this and it is fun fun can)

Savya what music do you mostly listen to? How would you describe their sound signatures in words. Thanks

No nO no...the Grado is jujst cutting it for me. I just don't know how Abhi could rate the MS1 above the Senn HD580. The Senns eat the grados. And comfort wise there is absolutely no competition. My ears scream out for some relief after just half an hour of listening.

My Senn Is going to stay with me.
Just listed (and already have got a buyer) for the grado.

Will be upgrading to a Beyerdynamic DT990..

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I just don't know how Abhi could rate the MS1 above the Senn HD580.

May be I need to listen to the 580 with better amplification . Comfort wise I know Senns win hands down but sound wise, unless you have a beefy amplification for 580, MS-1 would still be the one for me.
Buddy, howz RS-1 compared to SR-225 and HD-580 ?

The difference is so BIG that i go like " ahhh...back to sanctuary when i put on the Senns"..
I have heard the MS1, iGrado(pathetic), SR225, RS1 and the SR60.

None can compare to the Senns. Sure they have a nice airy sound and all, but the comfort and the really closed soundstage bothers me a lot. Another significant lapse is that the bass just doesn't extend. The feel is cheap and fragile. The cable is good but a bother more so than the Senn cables.

And for rock, my senns blow the grados away.

How big is the difference between RS-1 and 225 ?

oh i don't know...i heard the RS1s more than a couple of months back. Anything i say won't do justice to either headphone.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

And comfort wise there is absolutely no competition. My ears scream out for some relief after just half an hour of listening.

Is your pair new? The pads takes a while to get soft. The more you wear them the softer it becomes. You could try hastening it by washing it with soap! Once it "breaks in" it gets much more comfortable.
The brightness takes a while to get used to. I am able to use it for hours together now.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

The difference is so BIG that i go like " ahhh...back to sanctuary when i put on the Senns".. I have heard the MS1, iGrado(pathetic), SR225, RS1 and the SR60. None can compare to the Senns.

Sad to hear this But, doesn't surprise me! Grado sound is not for everyone. I like my SR60 a lot, but I know that the Senn HD600 sounded a lot more natural than a Grado RS1.

Await your review of the Beyerdynamic DT990.

vjcritic schrieb:

You could try hastening it by washing it with soap! Once it "breaks in" it gets much more comfortable. The brightness takes a while to get used to. I am able to use it for hours together now.

RUDOLF, the red-eared reindeer

That's what I look like if I forget to take off my Grados. 1 hr max my ears can take. But, when absorbed in music, lose track of time.

vjcritic schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: And comfort wise there is absolutely no competition. My ears scream out for some relief after just half an hour of listening. Is your pair new? The pads takes a while to get soft. The more you wear them the softer it becomes. You could try hastening it by washing it with soap! Once it "breaks in" it gets much more comfortable. The brightness takes a while to get used to. I am able to use it for hours together now.

No bought them used for 140 bucks...excellent condition though. Can't justify keeping them when my Senns outperform them while costing 125 brand new!

Neutral schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: The difference is so BIG that i go like " ahhh...back to sanctuary when i put on the Senns".. I have heard the MS1, iGrado(pathetic), SR225, RS1 and the SR60. None can compare to the Senns. Sad to hear this But, doesn't surprise me! Grado sound is not for everyone. I like my SR60 a lot, but I know that the Senn HD600 sounded a lot more natural than a Grado RS1. Await your review of the Beyerdynamic DT990.

The SR225 are now sold...closing the deal on the DT990 in the next 10 minutes ..all in a day's work eh..
How my wallet must hate me!

Savyasaachi schrieb:

The SR225 are now sold...closing the deal on the DT990 in the next 10 minutes ..all in a day's work eh.. How my wallet must hate me! :Y

Excuse, a real noob question Is trading hi-fi gear like selling shares? I mean, can u buy a pair for 140 and sell for 160 just 2 weeks later. Maybe your wallet will love u then

If u sold those AL thingies, do kick them off your profile. I guess they are only good for airplanes.

Not when someone offers a modded SR225 for 135

Savyasaachi schrieb:

The SR225 are now sold...closing the deal on the DT990 in the next 10 minutes ..all in a day's work eh.. How my wallet must hate me! :Y

Nice! Looking forward to a review!

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Not when someone offers a modded SR225 for 135 :D

What's the Maximo i-Metal, Sachi? A new pair of headphones. I gave up on headphones and am listening to the big speakers even though its early morning. For all the clarity of headphones, u can't beat the soundstaging of big speakers

Neutral schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: Not when someone offers a modded SR225 for 135 :D What's the Maximo i-Metal, Sachi? A new pair of headphones. I gave up on headphones and am listening to the big speakers even though its early morning. For all the clarity of headphones, u can't beat the soundstaging of big speakers :D

This
Maximo iMetal 390S

Got it as a sample from the Manager. I must say, i am surprised at the quality of this litle bugger. Better than the UE Profi3 and Vmoda vibe as well.
COmes in a small great looking case with an airline adapter to boot!

I totally agree with you on the big speakers front. Can't wait to move into my own place and get me some speakers and a pass labs X150 amp(now you know what i am aiming at)