Listening to 'Brothers In Arms' XRCD

Dear Abhi,

You are right about XRCD they are fantastic.

Reason why they are not popular ?

who will buy them for $20 plus ?

How many of your favourite artists are available on XRCD?

I too feel sad they are not available here in regular shops.

You also will have to consider the fact JVC choose only the best recordings for producing XRCD. Like they say a chain is as strong as the weakest link, so the master tape has to well produced and naturaly most of well produced music will be from musicians who care about quality. The end result is what we hear XRCD

Hi Ani,
I agree with you on most of the points but still....

1. Why is it that no one else is producing XRCD...though its a patent of JVC, cant others have copyright to this technology ?

2. Agreed that the best of the recordings being selected gives us the awesome quality of XRCD, but looking at the difference between XRCD and normal CDs, isnt it worth condering more labels to be recorded on XRCD ? If you consider master tape, I agree that some are recorded too well but most of the others are also decent...atleast going by todays standards. It all boils down to the way its recorded on to the CD and the CD pressing quality which makes the difference to us. Thats the reason many import CDs sound better than its Indian counterpart. I really wonder why we people are losing so much on music when we are spending big bucks on equipments just to go that extra mile... and moreover technology is available that can give us something like XRCD...but we are still forcefully bound to normal CDs.....what a Pity

its the same problem with SACDs as well as DVDAs :). great hardware but no enough software.

surprisingly there are comparably good recordings on CD as well. if you listen to Jazz in the Pawnshop CD, the recording is pretty amazing (Although the music to me was not all that great ;)hence do not her it much )

lets be thankful that at least some recordings in XRCDs exist..but looking at the future, it is all going to be MP3s and AACs.

Buddy Arj,
SACDs and DVDA requires additional gears (which are not cheap) to enjoy them fully but XRCD doesnt need one, a normal CDP is all they require and then they churn out wonders of music then why the hell these people restrict such technolgies to reach the public...cmon its not some rocket science we are talking just some more encoding/decoding/recording that we are talking about.......They dont have to use any Gold plated CDs, its just normal CDs that they use and it all boils down to how you record and even that we are deprived off...

I bet if it would have been invented by someone like Sony, then it would have been lot more popular and accessible to the interested people around and at a much better pricing strategy.

I agree on the Hardware.. but even with the limited choice the choice of universal players that did a good job at playback was quite high and if there had been enough labels in it the cost of hardware would have come down further.

unfortunately their demise (?), among many other things, came down to who the buyers are and what do they know about it.

I am sure the difference between a XRCD/CD/MP3 will not really be heard in a regular Sony/Kenwood.... and the people who constitute more than 90% of the music market dont care about the quality of the CD. (Some of the recordings are really really bad ).

surprisingly XRCDs do have a ready market in japan. thats the whole reason why they still exist

But you must listen to some pressings by Hugo and denon in japan. you will be surprised that they were done using regular CD technology on a regular CD !

Since we were on the the concept of Jitter on another thread. one of the reasons many CDs do not sound as they could is because the Stamping is not good enough. hence the pits in the cd are not formed very well with sharp edges and a normal transport will not read them well hence they can cause ambiguity.

good transports like Meridian have inbuilt error protection logic.
(Thats the reason US stampings are considered bettr than most although the Japs rule)

Some folks have recommended extracting from these CDs via EAC and then re writing them into a regular CD at a low writing speed and the results apparently are much better for even on a NOrmal CD. Have not found the time to really do a comparison but is one of those things to do on a rainy day, whenever it comes up

Hi Abhi,

I have been down that SAME road, with the SAME questions running thru my mind, when I heard my 1st XRCD, almost 2 years ago.

However, on extended listning, I suspect that (all ? - Shame on me for generalising ) XRCDs are tonally touched up to sound more "audiophile."

IMHO It impresses, atleast initially, just as the 'Loudness" control would a newbie.
The XRCD do sound phenominal, but I suspect its with also a little different freq response equalisation.

On another point ....

I did an A/B between the XRCD and normal CD (Sultans of Swing -The best of Dire Starits HDCD) using the the same "Brothers in Arms" as the reference track

I have almost always felt ( heard ) that compilations dont have the sound quality of the original. It would be interesting if you could listen to ( and revert to us ) if the Best Of ... sounds as good as the original Vanila flavour CD... Brothers In Arms. Though the HDCD compilation should theoritically sound better, I doubt if it actually....

Many Classics are now being re-released after being "digitally remastered."

Further, old classic works ( Dark Side Of the Moon ) are releleased on SACD Hybrids.

I have a "Brothers In Arms ' SACD Hybrid disc, and the CD Layer on the SACD sounds different ( worse ? ) than the original CD version.

To sum it up, I suspect that CD lables are now freely equalising ( Tone controls - Ugh ) the master tapes, so we have a variety of CD versions, all sounding subtlely different, only I would caution when using the word 'better.'

No offence to XRCDs, ...... and the Brothers In Arms XRCD is approx US $ 40 ! Phew !

Hmmmmm......one thing is true that all these difference between XRCD/CD/Mp3 wont be as prominent in a Sony/Kenwood system. So may be thats the reason JVC kept it so constrained.
Its really Sad

Now I am always sure that I am loosing a lot of music even though I am listening through a decent set-up.

Hi Amp_Nut,
Now thats confusing...
Whether its equalization that makes XRCD sound more attractive or its better technology to record onto the CD which makes ot sound better is something too complex to answer...atleast to me

About the gain, I listened to both them at similar loudness and I found XRCD having lot more texture to the sound.

About getting a Vanilla flavour CD and then doing a A/B, Yes I will certainly do it asap and put it on the forum.

Whether HDCD has any significance is something even I am trying to dig into...not sure whether there is an improvement in SQ due to HDCD.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi Amp_Nut, About the gain, I listened to both them at similar loudness and I found XRCD having lot more texture to the sound.

i agree with you there. i have 4 XRCDs and i found the "texture" to be very very satifying. maybe the detail is due to enhancing of some frequencies but it neither sounds digital Nor does it sound harsh.

i particularly like an ambum called sister drum by Dadawa. its all in chinese and i inderstand not a word, but sometimes get goosebumps due to the texture of the music.

I also have the Sheffield drum track on XRCD..i really find it very unmusical and a waste of money i prefer the henry james newton & friends cd to that for pure listenability...

Arj schrieb:

it neither sounds digital Nor does it sound harsh.

Yes, thats the key, it neither sounds digital/clinical nor re-mastered nor Harsh, it just that it sounds naturally detailed with a lot more body to the song.

I remember some people on this forum had said that it sounds more analogue........I really cant comment on that because I havent listened to a well-setup analogue sound yet (I mean vinyls) so really cant comment on the analogue aspect of XRCD but it does involve more than its traditional CD counterpart is all I can say.

Abhi, I have quite a few xrcd's and they are good. Expensive they are. Is the asking price justified ? My answer is no but I bought them only becuase they do sound good and they are the transcriptions of my favourite LP's.

Telarc is another brand with excellent recordings at normal CD prices. Dont know if you would find music to your liking in the telarc catalogue but I sure find a lot of it.

Manek.

Telarc is another brand with excellent recordings at normal CD prices. Dont know if you would find music to your liking in the telarc catalogue but I sure find a lot of it.

All Telarc CDs have a high dynamic range. To some audiophiles this sounds clinical / artificial as in reality such high dynamic range cannot be achieved in live concerts.

Also Telarc recordings are detailed, bright but at times do sound harsh.

Regards.

Behram.

Abhi,
for comparison you can try out the 2 cd compilation of Dire straits and Mark Knopfler try to find the EU presssing. This a HDCD disc remastered by Bob Ludwig one of the best in industry. On non HDCD players the bass may sound bit bloated. Compare it to XRCD you may find out XRCD or CD they all sound different....! I have many versions of DS CD's and they all sound different The latest MK album Shangrila sounds so good on EU version compared to the boomy Indian CD. You wont belive that both are from the same master!!

If Ones & Zeroes lovers wont blast me out I would like to point out that my Dire Straits LP's pressed in india will sure make you think what is wrong with XRCD !

behram,

My experience with Telarc has been quite good. I have a few and none of them are bright or harsh.

Manek.

Hi Maneck,

Which Telarc labels do you have ?

Behram.

Behram wrote:

"To some audiophiles this sounds clinical / artificial as in reality such high dynamic range cannot be achieved in live concerts."

Which live concerts have you listened to that you are comparing the sound of?

Have you heard a 100-piece ensemble in a concert hall? Talk about dynamics! None of our music systems or music CDs come even close.

That's why it's so important to hear live music. Brings some humility in our lives before we start bragging about music reproduction systems!

Viren.

getting a Hi fi to sound like Live music is like finding God you can only strive to be there.. but you will never be there no matter how hard you try.
Of course, some of us may get nearer to it than others.

but again if i were to try and analyse Live music from my frankly quite limited exposure
-Highs are muted/rolled off
-BAss thump is often lumpy
-Soundstaging is purely visual..usually all sounds lumped together.
-Accuracy - highly overrated anyway

but in the end the experience is too overwhelming.. i guess we look at completely the wrong things in our Hifi but expect it to sound live

ani schrieb:

If Ones & Zeroes lovers wont blast me out I would like to point out that my Dire Straits LP's pressed in india will sure make you think what is wrong with XRCD ! :angel

Hey Ani,
I couldnt get you there....would you please elaborate.

Behram,
to name a few....

Monty Alexander - live at Iridium
Ray Brown trio-Dont get sassy
Favourite pieces (compilation)
Andre Previn - Uptown
Schubert Unfinished
Dvorak symphony 8
A few others I cant remember right now....

I intend to get more telarcs as and when they pop up from time to time.

Manek.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hey Ani, I couldnt get you there....would you please elaborate.

I believe it was Ani's Not so subtle broadside at all CD/Digital lovers

Arj schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Hey Ani, I couldnt get you there....would you please elaborate. I believe it was Ani's Not so subtle broadside at all CD/Digital lovers :D

Ya I get that but still it would be great if he could elaborate on the comparision with his Vinyl...

Maneck,

I have only these in my collection from Telarc

Round Up
The Great Fantasy Adventure Album
Orchestral spectaculars
Class Brass on the Edge
Erich Kunzel Top20
William Tell and other fvourite Overtures
Bose Special Edition Lifestyle Music CD

Regards.

Behram.

Dear Abhi ,

It is the tone, timber or what you call it that makes the difference. Three different Brothers In Arms CD's of mine have different tonal quality and all sounds very real till you play the LP

The bigest difference I have noticed is in general shift in tone of CD's from that of LP, you may even wonder if it is the same voice !! I have a LP of Jesudas, a voice that I am fortunate to have heard many times both un ampified and amplified, on CD version of this LP his voice is very different not at all what you hear live but LP is very much nearer tonaly. The LP may not have the high dynamic range of Live or CD but it has the tone.

If you compare LP to CD not just of DS but in general, I feel that what you hear from Vinyl is nearer to natural, the vocals and instruments seems to be more coherent and more in line with what you hear live ( with a lot of exageration) You can try the track "Your latest Trick" listen to LP and CD then decide which one sounds better

Oh coooool.......now thats a revealation.
Howz the bass on LPs ? Does it have the same amount of depth as on well recorded CDs ? Or say, is the quality of bass better on LPs than CDs ? Just for curosity brother, I dont have th previlege to listen to a well setup Vinyl system here in Bangalore...that too Dire Straits on Vinyl would be still rare. Thats the reason I have put forward these questions.

BTW, by any chance are you based in Bangalore ?

behram,

I wonder, besides the regular record shops, does anyone deal with Telarc Cd's exclusively in Bombay ?

Manek.

Abhi,

Bass on LP can vary a lot it depends on LP pressing quality and TT setup. Brothers in Arms Indian pressing is cut at a very low level, may be to get the louder passages without distortion. The quality not the quantity that makes vinyl bass sound better to me, it may not churn your stomach but will thump your chest

Sorry pal I am in Cochin, you are welcome to drop in if you happen to come to this end of the world.

hmmm...that adds to my curosity...btw where did you get that LP from ? Whats the cost ?

Local Polydor shop, cost Rs 75 way back in 1986

Hi Ani,
What’s your turntable setup ?
I fully agree with you regarding the sound of vinyl. It is the “soul” that gets to you with vinyl. I am from the old school who grew up with vinyl and then got introduced to cd and digital audio. I used to have most well recorded records from the 80’s. Unfortunately I lost all of them during a wild phase of my life. I still regret that. The first thing I realized when I listened to the cd’s of some music I already had on vinyl was the lack of involvement of myself to the music. When I play cd’s I suddenly find myself disjointed form the music. The cd plays fine and crystal clear (all the zero’s and ones intact) but I just sit and stare at the speakers. I resisted cds for a long time but I was forced to join the bad-wagon due to non-availability of vinyl and lot of other factors. I had a recording engineer friend those days and he clearly demonstrated to me once the difference in tonality between a digital master and analogue taped one. Those days most musicians hated to be recorded on digital. But the big “ digital monster “ finally conquered all.

Dear Square wave

My set up for vinyl is the basic one consisting of Project RPM 9 turntable, sumiko BPS, Tube Box phono pre, Primaluna Prologue 1 amp and Mointor Audio GR 20 and most important gear for vinyl set up Cartridge alignment tool and my DIY disc vacuum cleanig machine

Regarding your observation of CD sound I too agree but we all have to get them to listen to your music. If you are willing to go in for some of the better Digital gears you will notice a HUGE difference in the CD playback, you can get back most of the soul back to music but still the tone may be different due to mastering or some thing that that happens while CD's are made.

Talking of CD vs LP tone I have only one XRCD and teh old RCA living stereo LP of Heifetz - Mendelssohn & Prokoviev: Violin Concertos that can be compared. Guys at JVC knows what they are doing and the result is that both are very similar in tonal balance, only negative was that tape hiss is more audible on XRCD

square_wave schrieb:

When I play cd’s I suddenly find myself disjointed from the music. The cd plays fine and crystal clear (all the zero’s and ones intact) but I just sit and stare at the speakers.

buddy, you definitely need to tweak your setup there is something wrong somewhere.. usually its either the source or the speakers.

but since you are sure of the source with regard to the 0/1, maybe you need to play around with your speakers..

Hey Ani,
I have to agree that you have a impressive setup....looks like a real Analogue guy..

Buddy square_wave,
As far as getting disjointed from music is concerned, I had the same experience with NAD amps (wherever I auditioned) its then I concluded that NAD is more of a analytical amp than what you call involving. Marantz on the other hand may not be as accurate as NAD but is more involving to my ears atleast.
Come over to my place sometimes and listen to the meek Audience52 + Plinius combo (both entry level from their respective brands) played through a entry level NAD521 cdp and then you decide whether CDs are as Un-Involving as you think.
It acts like a 100 mbps instant broadband connection between you and the music without any attention to the gears....

Hi Abhi,

R U in Mumbai ?

Wonder if I can get an invite to listen to yr system ?

Please PM me.

Thanks

Check your buddy Amp_Nut.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hey Ani, I have to agree that you have a impressive setup....looks like a real Analogue guy.. Buddy square_wave, As far as getting disjointed from music is concerned, I had the same experience with NAD amps (wherever I auditioned) its then I concluded that NAD is more of a analytical amp than what you call involving. Marantz on the other hand may not be as accurate as NAD but is more involving to my ears atleast. Come over to my place sometimes and listen to the meek Audience52 + Plinius combo (both entry level from their respective brands) played through a entry level NAD521 cdp and then you decide whether CDs are as Un-Involving as you think. It acts like a 100 mbps instant broadband connection between you and the music without any attention to the gears.... :D

Hi Ani,
That is good system that you have. Have always wanted to listen to the prologue one.
I have TS Lim modded Marantz cd67se player now and I am very happy with it.

Hi Arj, Abhipani
I am talking about my setup some ten years back when I compared vinyl and cd in my old setup. I was just sharing my experience when I first got into cd’s. It is a different story altogether now I love my setup than any entry/midfi setup I have heard The only gear I have to upgrade is the amp. I am just waiting for a good room to do all the final tuning to my system. First upgrade is the amp. But even now if I play a well setup vinyl in my system, I am sure it will be a different experience altogether. I know it is all subjective, but I grew up with vinyl so I immediately take to its pure analogue tone and timbre. I have done comparisons between vinyl and cd in some perfectly setup modern systems including one at absolute phase and I definitely prefer the Vinyl. Maybe I am biased because I grew up with vinyl.

ani schrieb:

Dear Square wave My set up for vinyl is the basic one consisting of Project RPM 9 turntable, sumiko BPS, Tube Box phono pre, Primaluna Prologue 1 amp and Mointor Audio GR 20 and most important gear for vinyl set up Cartridge alignment tool and my DIY disc vacuum cleanig machine Regarding your observation of CD sound I too agree but we all have to get them to listen to your music. If you are willing to go in for some of the better Digital gears you will notice a HUGE difference in the CD playback, you can get back most of the soul back to music but still the tone may be different due to mastering or some thing that that happens while CD's are made. Talking of CD vs LP tone I have only one XRCD and teh old RCA living stereo LP of Heifetz - Mendelssohn & Prokoviev: Violin Concertos that can be compared. Guys at JVC knows what they are doing and the result is that both are very similar in tonal balance, only negative was that tape hiss is more audible on XRCD ;)

Hi Ani,
That is good system that you have. Have always wanted to listen to the prologue one.
I have TS Lim modded Marantz cd67se player now and I am very happy with it. . I was just sharing my experience when I first got into cd’s some ten years back. It is a different story altogether now. . I know it is all subjective, but I grew up with vinyl so I immediately take to its pure analogue tone and timbre. I have done comparisons between vinyl and cd in some perfectly setup modern systems including one at absolute phase and I definitely prefer the Vinyl. Maybe I am biased because I grew up with vinyl

Similar post twice. TT pin got stuck or what?

Buddy Square_wave,
Howz CD67se compared to your earlier NAD-C542 cdp ?

Sorry for the double post.

The modded player is a totally different animal. Bass weight and harmonics is the biggest improvement. I never had a c542 player.

Is your Nad amp also modded.........

Dear Square wave,

Thanks for the compliments, on behalf of my system:) I got your point regarding CDP's 10 yrs back, but would like to point out a few CD players that would be worth listening to since you like vinyl sound.

They are not the latest models but to my ears they are the best Red book CD players I have heard till date. You may note that I came across these players in the course of about 4 yrs will have to give margin for my poor audio memory. One thing is for sure they all sounded different from the usual CD players and all make use of DAC or filters that are not run of the mill. The second observation is a recent one, I was reading a paper published by commercial application development dept. of Glamorgan university regarding DAC and WTA filter implemented on FPGA.

Arcam FMJ 32 - the ring DAC- Dcs was behind it

Perreaux CD1P - PCM 63P DAC said to be one of the best sounding single chip DAC used in some Linn and Monarchy DAC. HDCD filter PMD100 another legend in digital filter.

Wadia 861 - lots of their own signal processing

Chord DAC64 - proprietory DAC and Filtering system developed as a cheaper alternative to single chip solutions used by others.

Wadia and Chord DAC are more coherent sounding which is what I like in vinyl. These two players lets the notes decay naturaly which most of the CD players just refuse to do !! If I exagerate most CD players spits out the transients, plays the body and swallows the decaying part of the notes

Warm regards

abhi.pani schrieb:

Is your Nad amp also modded.........

No buddy I need to change it. It is a decent amp for the $ but the rest of the system deserves much better.

Hi Ani,
I agree some hi-end players can sound very analogue and can paint a coherent picture with all the details intact Wanted to ask you one more thing. Which all tube amps did you consider/audition before you picked up the prologue one. Can you share your experience with the Prologue one ? Thanks.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Buddy Square_wave, Howz CD67se compared to your earlier NAD-C542 cdp ?

I can actually vouch for the Modded CD67/63. TS Lim is a very big name in Sg and I think I had recommended Sq Wave to him. his cdp mod is extra special and as per him and he focuses on musicality (He also happens to be a musician who plays the violin). interistingly as per im the newer Marantz cdps do not offer the same scope for improvement.

regarding NAD, his view is that NAD design is slightly compromised hence not so much scope..

And how do we get these specially modded CDPs here in India...any reliable source you could think off ?