Power and Low Volume listening

but what about the rest of the music. Practically, would I be able listen to music in a detailed way at lower listening levels if I had a more powerful amplifier? Or is there no escape from playing loudly if I want to hear all there is in the source.

Not really, I get all details at low volume ( mind you at 7 'o' clock position ) and bass is tight and heavy too with thick mids and sparkling highs., so no need to crank it up, So I guess you need a an amp and CDP which can deliver good details and power ratings are irrelvant..a good amp with 50 watts is better than one which can deliver 100 watts and the diffrence is just 3 db in loudness..

Hi Sub-Boss,
My present amp is under the 25 watts valve lyrita Integrated driving the Proac Reference Sig. Tablettes. I have to push it to 3/4 volume to get an impact, at half volme its OK but the details are not as clear, and at seven O clock its not very informative, that is to say somewhat indistinct background music. To some extent I gather the speakers are reputed to ask for power although they are rated to work for amps between ten to hundred watts. I am going in for the Lyrta 50 watt monoblocks, lets see if that helps. I dont think its the quality of the sound that I have a problem with, for both the amp and CDP, but I wish I could listen to detail at a comfortable domestic volume.

Purnendu

purnendu schrieb:

Hi All, A higher powered amplifier can play louder than a lower powered one with a speaker of the same rating. Does this fact have any implications for listening at low volumes? My problem is that loud music is a hassle in a domestic situation. If I turn down the volume then the details or information also goes down. Does a higher powered amplifier make it possible to generate more information at lower listening levels. I believe it does help produce better low frequencies, but what about the rest of the music. Practically, would I be able listen to music in a detailed way at lower listening levels if I had a more powerful amplifier? Or is there no escape from playing loudly if I want to hear all there is in the source. I would be glad for practical as well as theoretical advice. Purnendu

not sure if it is only the amplifier alone, it could also do with speakers. Not all speakers are dynamic enough in low signal situations..

Could you list down you Speaker/Amp ?

from my limited understanding the biasing in your Amp (If it is a A/B amp ) also affcts low volume scenarios.

Not all speakers are dynamic enough in low signal situations

Oops Rf's are 98 db/w/m

from my limited understanding the biasing in your Amp (If it is a A/B amp ) also affcts low volume scenarios.

Mine is a class A, so it actually gives me all details at low volumes

Also depends whether you are positioned in a near-field setup or mid/far-field setup. If you are listening in a nearfield setup, its very convinient to listen at low volumes as you are not losing subtle information in the air. Before the loss, it reaches your ears. Whereas in a mid/far field setup you do lose information within the air if you listen at low volumes and those informations are subtle ones, but it would be apparent that you are losing them, hence the urge to pump up.

Also when the noise floor matters. When its low you can even manage at half the normal listening volume but when its high you just cant manage.

So try listening at nearfield and see if it solves your problem.

Thats one of the reasons why headphones maintain their clarity and details even at very low volume levels. There is almost no loss within the air.

A few points:

- Tubes are a little gentle on bass
- Human ear is less sensitive to very low (<250 Hz) and very high (>6000 Hz) frequencies
- You amp & speakers are alright

Suggestions:

- If the amp has tone control - increase treble & bass when hearing at low volumes
- Bi-amping may help - get an equivalent rated solid-state amp to drive the woofers

Regards

Sanjay

another point is the ear itself

after 30 all of us , especially men, have varying loss of hearing..hence speakers with a more "bright" nature preferred over the dark sounding ones !

also requiring louder sound which causes problems to the younger folks

Hi Purnendu,

VERY interesting topic. I have been down that road not too long ago.

My conclusion .... as in most walks of life, quantity make a poor substitute for quality. I am currently living with quality and limited quantity compromise.

I have heard the Proac Reference Sig. Tablettes a couple of years ago. They are awesome but need power.

I have unfortunately ( for myself) not heard your amp in familiar surroundings.

Try listning to yr syetem late at night, when ambient noise is low... listen intently. Do you notice more detail ?

The power is also much better after 10 pm, and improves sound noticibly ( yeah - we are in THAT territory where Cables DO change the sound and presentation )


A high powered amp could also be noisy, and the noise is hidden in specs that compare the noise to MAX output.

There are ofcourse Great amps that deliver high power, but then they are rarely priced for mortals ...

Also, the size of yr listning room dictates the amount of p[ower required. You have not mentioned yr room dimensions, or yr speasker efficiency.

There there is WHAT do you listen to ? Sound stage (like me ) ? You probably need more space between the speakers, you, and the walls, for sound stage. Then U also need more power. If you are content with rhythm, and freq extreme4s, then near field and lower powers could satisfy.

I think I will sign off this rambling with repeating myself :Quantity make a poor substitute for Quality.

One more point - try isolating your room. Rubber lining at the door edges, weather seal below the doors, curtains, etc. And then you could use somewhat higher volume without disturbing others in the family. Moreover, cutting off ambient will have a positive impact on your hearing too - as amp-nut suggested

And don't mind the coloration of tone controls - use them to counterbalance the lack of "coloration" in the ears at low volumes.

Regards

Sanjay

SDhawan schrieb:

One more point - try isolating your room. Rubber lining at the door edges, weather seal below the doors, curtains, etc. And then you could use somewhat higher volume without disturbing others in the family.

Good points doc.. basically play at the best volume but do not trouble the others with it

Whereas in a mid/far field setup you do lose information within the air if you listen at low volumes and those informations are subtle ones, but it would be apparent that you are losing them, hence the urge to pump up.

Not really!! I'm talking about good listening levels and it really doesn't matter whether you choose near or far field, it's the system which has to give you good details and by pumping up volume we are just hearing everything loud with details ... no no all details should be there irrespective of volume..

no no all details should be there irrespective of volume..

Ofcourse all the details should be there irrespective of the volume (else its far from hifi )....but can we hear all the details irrespective of the volume is the question.

The minimum volume at which you can hear all the details varies a lot between near, mid and far fields....
Hence the question if a more powerful amp helps ?
As far as I understand, if you are straining your amp to get all the dynamics and details at your listening position, you MIGHT be shortage of power. In that case some more power or a more sensitive speaker would definitely help (considering that you dont compromise with the quality that you originally had).

Also if you dont mind listening at near field, you must try that before spending more on your system.

As I have already sighted an example of headphones which allows you to listen to all the details even at very low volumes....thats because you are in extreme near-field position, if it can work for headphones, then why not speakers

OK,
So my objective should be to get all details at lower or modest listening levels although to some extent the limitations of my ears will prevent me from hearing details at lower levels. Let me take up some of the suggestions.

My listening room is 18ft by 11ft and 12ft high. Not very large not too small either. Last year or so I have had the speakers firing across the long axis. I liked having this distance because it created a space between me and the speakers, which were about 2and half foot into the room and about 3 feet away from either side wall. This set up was fine for loud music but lower the volume and the impact and presence went down as well as the details of the music.Last week I changed the set up to a nearfield arrangement so that the speakers are firing across the width of the room. Well the speakers are closer to the rear wall, about one foot or little more, but there is lots of space on either side. Certainly this arrangement has helped in that I can listen at lower volumes, and indeed blasting becomes uncomfortable. SO am I happy? Mostly Yes and a little no. The imaging was not superlative in the earlier arrangement but now it is even less tangible. There is however one big advantage I think in the present arrangement.In front of the speakers now there is no wall, but a large opening 8*12ft leading to another room. This has had the effect of reducing resonances. I also tried out the system in this second larger room which has unevensided walls and openings. Here the system sounded better, more open and powerful without getting congested. However for domestic reasons I cant keep the system here.

One problem is also the kind of music. Large symphonic works have an enormous range from soft to loud. Its mainly with this kind of music that I have a problem, so that soft passages become hard to listen at a volume where loud passages are OK, and the other way round. JAZZ is somewhat more limited in its range and less of a problem. Indian classical is no problem as also chamber music.

Cables are QED silver Anniversary (I wish I had bought longer pieces) and interconnect is Audio Analogue. Power is from an extension strip plugged into the wall Nothing fancy here but it will have to wait. Rack is the TNT flexy. I have mostly everything covered, its now a matter of fine tuning and getting the details right. Things like TT set up need more attention. Also I need to glue down the speakers on to their stands. Right now they are just kept on them because I dont want to spoil their finish by sticking double sided tape. All this I can do gradually. As of now the system sounds good, and although its not really a knock out, its neither tiring to listen to nor does it draw attention to any one feature.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Let me stick to this near field set up and see how it works. Next week I get to try the monoblocks. That should also help.

Purnendu

Also if you dont mind listening at near field, you must try that before spending more on your system. As I have already sighted an example of headphones which allows you to listen to all the details even at very low volumes....thats because you are in extreme near-field position, if it can work for headphones, then why not speakers

You are right and I'm no big fan of imaging and good seperation is what matters and ofcourse it does work for speakers... I'm an example.

I have tried both near field and far field.. I feel both are good..but near is better as I can listen without too much disturbance to others..

Purnendu,

With my experience the first and foremost thing is to drastically cut down the ambient noise. Kitchen and pressure cooker noise is more bugging than outside noise.
Rotating of fan in full speed is another problem. These noises add up to outside noises. Listening to music in that scenarion is total irritation.
So, the best way is to close all the windows and doors leading to your hifi room. It will be doubly better if you can spend on a split A.C. rather than upgrading your system for the time being.

purnendu schrieb:

Hi All, Does this fact have any implications for listening at low volumes? .... Practically, would I be able listen to music in a detailed way at lower listening levels if I had a more powerful amplifier? Purnendu

IMHO, I think that, GENERALLY, this is not correct. Since you are listening at lower levels whether the amp is 30W or 300W, you are not stressing it from its power output rating perspective. So, a 30W amp should have sufficient headroom for dynamics at lower listening levels.
Your ProAc Reference Sig. Tablette speakers are far from being conducive to lower level listening - they have an efficiency of 86dB SPL/W/m!! You need power for these hungry stand-mounts!
My definition of "lower listening level" is 75-80dB SPL at the listening chair 8'-9' away from the speakers.
Is this your definition of "lower listening level"??

Arj schrieb:

not sure if it is only the amplifier alone, it could also do with speakers. Not all speakers are dynamic enough in low signal situations..

I'm in agreement w/ this statement from Arjun - IMHO, besides the quality of the amp (as cited by Amp_Nut), the speakers play an important role in facilitating lower level listening. One needs a sensitive woofer to reproduce bass at lower signal levels fed to it. Besides this, breaking-in a speaker is also very important as it loosens the surround. This looser surround is more supple in reproducing bass at lower signal levels. Additionally, whether the speaker is a sealed or ported box also makes a difference - from my experience the sealed box needs a higher signal level to produce a fuller bass vs. a ported box (as a small digression: IMHO, a sealed box loads a room in a preferred way vs. a ported box). I've also noticed that higher efficieny speakers (95dB SPL/W/m types that are used w/ flea-watt power amps) do really well at lower signal levels. Speaker x-over design is also another big factor in facilitating lower listening levels - poor x-over designs suck up a lot of amp power & also load it down w/ abyssal dips in the impedance curve.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Try listning to yr syetem late at night, when ambient noise is low... listen intently....The power is also much better after 10 pm, and improves sound noticibly....A high powered amp could also be noisy,...

In general, I'm in agreement w/ these statements. Reducing the ambient noise in your listening room will facilitate lower level listening.
An audio acquaintance of mine switches off his fridge before critical listening! Add A/C blower fan hum to the list of noises cited by "myriad".

If you can hear a clock tick while you are in your listening seat, then you should be able to hear low level details.

Do try to cut down the ambient sounds. Switch off the fans, put on the AC in the room about an hour before and switch it off while listening to music.

Switch on your system about an hour or more before listening time for it to warm up to perform at its best level.

Speaker sensitivity, amp power, etc can limit the highest sound level you can achieve with your system but not really low level performance.

Make sure that your room is not dead - do a reverse treatment in that case (most unlikely that you would need that).

Regards

Sanjay

SDhawan schrieb:

Speaker sensitivity, amp power, etc can limit the highest sound level you can achieve with your system but not really low level performance. Regards Sanjay

I disagree with this statement! it makes no sense! speaker sensitivity will affect the highest sound level? How?

In your opinion, a speaker with low sensitivity (like 84-86dB SPL/W/m) will respond to a low level signal & reproduce full audio spectrum sound (within the speaker's specs) just as well as a speaker with, say, 92dB SPL/W/m??????????

Switching off the fan, as pointed out by SDhawan, does make a significant difference. Try switching off the fan while you are listning, and you will know. Besides the fan noise, I believe that the fan causes disturbances in the Air, causing changes in the Sound pressure waves between the speaker and the listner.

While it may not be the case in prenendu's system, some systems just do not resolve detail...

Owners then crank up the volume, trying to hear what is almost not there...

In your opinion, a speaker with low sensitivity (like 84-86dB SPL/W/m) will respond to a low level signal & reproduce full audio spectrum sound (within the speaker's specs) just as well as a speaker with, say, 92dB SPL/W/m??????????

Bombaywalla,
I think Purnendu is intending to listen to all the dynamics and details at a lower LOUDNESS level and not at lower volume level (in the amp).
Lets keep the loudness fixed at 80db (irrespective of the amount of volume level in the amp)....are you saying that a high sensitive speaker will spit out more details and dynamics than a lower sensitve ones (both giving out 80db) ?????

Low speaker sensitivity requires more amplifier power to produce same leve of sound / loudness. The resolution, tonal balance and other characters depend on the quality of the speaker. If at all low sensitivity speakers may deliver better resolution than high sensitivity speakers at low level of loudness because the compel the amps to work at more optimum levels.

And here actually sensitivity of human ear is more at fault than that of the speaker. The threshold of human ears is much higher for very low frequencies (<200 Hz) and for very high frequencies (>6000 Hz) and add to this a much higher resolution of midrange frequencies by our ears. This is also the reason why some of the older amps. had a loudness switch which is supposed to be turned on at low volume levels - this augments the bass & treble.

Regards

Sanjay

Bombaywalla, I think Purnendu is intending to listen to all the dynamics and details at a lower LOUDNESS level and not at lower volume level (in the amp). Lets keep the loudness fixed at 80db (irrespective of the amount of volume level in the amp)....are you saying that a high sensitive speaker will spit out more details and dynamics than a lower sensitve ones (both giving out 80db) ?????

Lo you are back to square one again friend.. Yes whats wrong if a person expects all dynamics at lower LOUDNESS level and not at lower volume as you have written..apart form all fans being switched off, or your wifey sleeping it's always the whole chain which gives you good details either at low level volume or cranked up and as long as it is not as what's above it makes absolutely non sense to discuss this.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Bombaywalla, I think Purnendu is intending to listen to all the dynamics and details at a lower LOUDNESS level and not at lower volume level (in the amp). Lets keep the loudness fixed at 80db (irrespective of the amount of volume level in the amp)....are you saying that a high sensitive speaker will spit out more details and dynamics than a lower sensitve ones (both giving out 80db) ????? Lo you are back to square one again friend.. Yes whats wrong if a person expects all dynamics at lower LOUDNESS level and not at lower volume as you have written..apart form all fans being switched off, or your wifey sleeping it's always the whole chain which gives you good details either at low level volume or cranked up and as long as it is not as what's above it makes absolutely non sense to discuss this.

Cmon buddy...atleast read what I am trying to ask Bombaywalla.

I am not saying its wrong to expect all the dynamics at low level. I am just asking:

are you saying that a high sensitive speaker will spit out more details and dynamics than a lower sensitve ones (both giving out 80db) ?????

Thats all I want to know from his experience.
How does that take the topic to square one

Proacs are very well built speakers but low in sensitvity (around 86db), I am just asking whether that could be the ONLY limiting factor...thats it.

According to me any well designed system worth its salt should give all the details at lower loudness levels (say 80db in this case)....its not related to the sensitivity of the speaker or the power output of the amp (considering that the amp is not strained).
I may be wrong...hence my question (as stated in the quote).

How does that take the topic to square one

your topic of db's....

I may be wrong

No you are not all wrong....infact even I want to hear form Bombaywalla..

SDhawan schrieb:

Make sure that your room is not dead

Shouldn't I make sure my room is not LIVE??

abhi.pani schrieb:

Bombaywalla, I think Purnendu is intending to listen to all the dynamics and details at a lower LOUDNESS level and not at lower volume level (in the amp).

There might have been some misunderstanding on my part. Anyway, let's see if I can clear it up w/ you guys:- in my original post (if you re-read it) I did write that my definition of lower listening levels was 75-80dB SPL at the listening chair. So you guys are calling 'lower listening levels' LOUDNESS. OK. looks like I started off correctly but seem to have equated lower listening level to lower signal level!

SDhawan schrieb:

Low speaker sensitivity requires more amplifier power to produce same leve of sound / loudness...... If at all low sensitivity speakers may deliver better resolution than high sensitivity speakers at low level of loudness because the compel the amps to work at more optimum levels.

OK, I think I understand this now: Higher bias setting for the output (& maybe other) stages.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Lets keep the loudness fixed at 80db (irrespective of the amount of volume level in the amp)....are you saying that a high sensitive speaker will spit out more details and dynamics than a lower sensitve ones (both giving out 80db) ????? :?

OK, now that you have pointed out my mix-up, I agree - speaker efficiency has minimal effect at lower loudness listening levels. IMHO, the design of the x-over network will have a far more profound effect on lower loudness listening levels. The cabinet also has a big effect because cabinet resonances end up as compensation circuits within the x-over network. IOW, if I compare, say, an 86dB SPL/W/m Dynaudio Confidence 5 w/ an 86dB ProAc Reference Sig Tablette, the Dynaudio should have better resolution at 80dB SPL loudness at the listening chair owing to its superior x-over (& superior cabinet). There is a huge price diff between these 2 speakers so it's not a fair comparison I have to admit.