Hifi Truth

hi SUB,

forgive me if this sounds stupid..

Is a "bright" amp necessarily "accurate"?

hi SUB, forgive me if this sounds stupid.. Is a "bright" amp necessarily "accurate"?

Dear friend no question can be stupid... I always prefer that an amp sounds accurate to you..yes I agree it might be inaccurate by measurement on many counts..but there are none which are accurate here...now tell me which food is accurate?? it depends upon whta you like and ofcourse we try to have the best among what we like..after all thats the pursuit for excellence...anyways where's your wharfs???got it yet??

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Magazines are in the business of selling advertising and providing entertainment. Whether you are a discerning listener who wants the best sound for the money or an industry professional searching for the best products to represent, the Audio Perfectionist Journal is the one source that you can rely on for accurate information about home audio equipment and technologies. Here you’ll learn about all the things the commercial magazines and underground publications either don’t know or don’t want you to know. And you won’t find any advertising. If we rave about a component it’s because we think that it offers high performance and value, not because we rely on the manufacturer’s advertising money for survival.

Isn't THIS advertising?? Call it PR or whatever at the end of the day the good man is advertising Audio Perfectionist Journal isn't he?

[quote="SUB_BOSS"]

[quote]It should not be necessary to combine a “dark” speaker cable with a “bright” amplifier to achieve a “synergistic” blend of colorations because this is a slippery slope to mediocrity.
[/quote]

As per scientific and spiritual principles, 2 wrongs do not make a right !

ie if one component is already colouring the sound then adding an other component so that it is recoloured into something else is going against the objective of retaining the putrty of the signal ! (further dostorting a dostorted signal)


I guess that is what the statement is hoping to convey. I personally agree with the concept, but not sure of components at entry cost levels which can manage to do that..
Also for most of us who have note really been exposed to too many neutral systems, how do we know something is neutral or bright ??

if the source itself (ie the cd) is a bright recording and hence sounds bright, how would you know the reason for the brightness ?

Isn't THIS advertising?? Call it PR or whatever at the end of the day the good man is advertising Audio Perfectionist Journal isn't he?

very clearly visible...but I was more interested in concepts he has tried to unearth...

As per scientific and spiritual principles, 2 wrongs do not make a right !

Agreed

ie if one component is already colouring the sound then adding an other component so that it is recoloured into something else is going against the objective of retaining the putrty of the signal ! (further dostorting a dostorted signal)

Agreed too...

if the source itself (ie the cd) is a bright recording and hence sounds bright, how would you know the reason for the brightness ?

BTW if a recording is bright and played in a bright se-up it obviously would be bright and maybe harsh...but tell me friend IMHO doesn't the world revolve around the fact that a bright component has to be paired with a darker one or vice versa to attain synergy..OK you tell me how far is this true now...BTW I was being told by many to pair horns with warm amps as they sound good..Do I beleive they were helping me tame my speakers but in the process of taking me away from neutrality???

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

BTW if a recording is bright and played in a bright se-up it obviously would be bright and maybe harsh...but tell me friend IMHO doesn't the world revolve around the fact that a bright component has to be paired with a darker one or vice versa to attain synergy..OK you tell me how far is this true now...BTW I was being told by many to pair horns with warm amps as they sound good..Do I beleive they were helping me tame my speakers but in the process of taking me away from neutrality???

The world revolves around compromises .. the extent of compromise is what you need to decide on.

YOu will definitely not get a neutral sound from your speakers by following the "purity of signal" route since your speakers are coloured, although you may like that shade.

Hence if you want to "tame" it you need to go with a warm sounding amp.

if you want true sound as it was recorded, you either need to go the headphone route or be prepared to roll out the $$$$$

But it would be interesting to see how one recognizes neutrality when one sees it.. the only way I can think of is recording your own voice using a good quality setup and listening to it!

But it would be interesting to see how one recognizes neutrality when one sees it.. the only way I can think of is recording your own voice using a good quality setup and listening to it!

Good suggestion..but gotta spend a lot or your way of rolling $$$$ for neutral recording equipment..any other suggestions???

Arj schrieb:

But it would be interesting to see how one recognizes neutrality when one sees it.. the only way I can think of is recording your own voice using a good quality setup and listening to it!

been thinking abt this more and working less...

Agree with Arj... when is something accurate?

Like if you and ur frnd were present at a recording studio itself.. would u both hear the same? I guess not.. it would be more subjective and hence recognising accuracy on your equipment is also sujective!!

nimz schrieb:

Arj schrieb: But it would be interesting to see how one recognizes neutrality when one sees it.. the only way I can think of is recording your own voice using a good quality setup and listening to it! been thinking abt this more and working less... Agree with Arj... when is something accurate? Like if you and ur frnd were present at a recording studio itself.. would u both hear the same? I guess not.. it would be more subjective and hence recognising accuracy on your equipment is also sujective!!

you are on a very interesting thought process my friend !!

just hold on to that thought and read this
http://www.allchurchsound.com/ACS/edart/fmelc.html

Then search for Fletcher Munson curves on google and enjoy

hence recognising accuracy on your equipment is also sujective!!

Excellent point Nimz...if you read thru my posts in your thread every post echoed this in many ways...cheers...

[quote="Arjjust hold on to that thought and read this
[url]http://www.allchurchsound.com/ACS/edart/fmelc.html[/url]

Then search for Fletcher Munson curves on google and enjoy [/quote]

Arj,

at this rate..looks like i'll get kicked out of my company

but this is fun guys... keep em coming and keep rocking!!!

Nimz

at this rate..looks like i'll get kicked out of my company

Don't worry just make sure you are on the forum whenever boss is around and get him addicted to audio...done life's easy for you..

Lets take a look down at the lower frequencies now, say 100Hz. For us to perceive 100Hz as loud as we do 1,000Hz (when the source is at 10dB), the 100Hz source must be at 30dB–that's 20dB higher than the 1,000Hz signal! Looking even farther down, a 20Hz signal must be nearly 75dB (65dB higher than the 1,000Hz signal)! We can clearly see our ears are not very sensitive to the lower frequencies, even more so at lower SPL levels.

Then usage of equalisers to attain desirable levels is discounted..right??

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Then usage of equalisers to attain desirable levels is discounted..right??

Not really, IMHO, if done in the digital domain, equalisation can be very effective. but it should not take the place of room treatment. after room treatment any problems could be corrected via digital correction

In the anlogue area you difinitely end up with distortion

For us to perceive 100Hz as loud as we do 1,000Hz (when the source is at 10dB), the 100Hz source must be at 30dB–that's 20dB higher than the 1,000Hz signal!

Fletcher & Munson certainly did some good work, but I could argue that that their work is being used in the wrong manner.

The Fletcher-Munson curves tell us that the ear does not hear ( or can I say "Want To Hear" ) Low Freq sounds at low levels, as well as 1 KHz.

So why 'Equalise'/ boost the Low freq and FORCE the ear to hear these sounds. That is un-natural.... No ?

I think another way of interpreting that is that the ear does not hear linearly ie the loudness at different freq is different for the same person, and this curve varies across individuals..
So even if you have a system sounding FLAT, your brain will not recognise it as the ears characteristics change it !

Hence the abused statement "Go by your ears only"

Hence the abused statement "Go by your ears only"

Well said..most abused and can be used to flex any concept.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

A high fidelity audio system should be assembled from components which are designed to accurately reproduce the signal.

this seems to agree w/ my basic thinking that the most accurate system is the most musical system. when the 2-ch system reproduces what's on the source medium accurately that's as good as it gets.
As brought up by other members: how does one recognize this?
There must be several ways, I'm sure. One way I found very useful are live concerts in small halls where the musicians end up playing unamplified equipment. Going to symphonies & chamber orchestra concerts, which are usually unamplified. Listening to local bands (even tho their music is often unpleasant to listen to!) just so that I can hear the sound & timbres of unamplified instruments.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Manufacturers continue to raise prices in the hope that customers will assume that products which cost more must be better. Magazine reviewers buy into this assumption and rank product performance in order of price.

Small wonder that our hobby has a nick-name of hi-(sp)end!

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Whether you are a discerning listener who wants the best sound for the money or an industry professional searching for the best products to represent, the Audio Perfectionist Journal is the one source that you can rely on for accurate information about home audio equipment and technologies.

Ach! you got this preface from Audio Perfectionist! I'm quite familiar w/ Richard Hardestry's writings in his AP magazine. Did you ever look @ the subscription price? He's certainly employing the "lower volumes means higher prices" theorem to himself as well!
So far in all the issues that I have seen & the articles I've gotten so far, there does NOT seem to be any manuf or dealer advertising. So, he appears to have an independent voice & can say what he wants.
Late in 2005 he put out a Wilson Maxx2 review that was extremely degrading of that very high priced speaker. I did not read that review (can't afford his subscription!) but on another forum several other members who had commented that he had written the review WITHOUT listening to the speaker! Understandably, would Dave Wilson send Richard Hardestry/Audio Perfectionist a review sample of his mega-dollar flagship speaker? And, if Richard Hardestry wrote the review after hearing the speaker at an audio show, double shame on him!
So, when Richard Hardestry says "the truth needs to be told" don't think of him as the audio angel spouting the gospel! His intentions are good, I think, but he does get PMS several times & writes irrationally.

[quote="Arj"][quote="SUB_BOSS"]

[quote]It should not be necessary to combine a “dark” speaker cable with a “bright” amplifier to achieve a “synergistic” blend of colorations because this is a slippery slope to mediocrity.
[/quote]

As per scientific and spiritual principles, 2 wrongs do not make a right !

ie if one component is already colouring the sound then adding an other component so that it is recoloured into something else is going against the objective of retaining the putrty of the signal ! (further dostorting a dostorted signal)


I guess that is what the statement is hoping to convey. I personally agree with the concept, but not sure of components at entry cost levels which can manage to do that..
Also for most of us who have note really been exposed to too many neutral systems, how do we know something is neutral or bright ??

if the source itself (ie the cd) is a bright recording and hence sounds bright, how would you know the reason for the brightness ?[/quote]


Very true. 2 wrongs never make it right. I have seen a number of people trying to do this. It is better to stay away from components with extreme characteristics if one is after neutral sound. Within a given budget, it is better to go after the most neutral and clean sound as possible. I have seen people trying to tone down the brightness by playing around with cables and usually keeping the cymbal hit as a reference. They some how get it under control and the cymbal may start sounding alright but then if you play a female vocal on the same setup, she will start sounding as she has a cold or something. The issue here is tampering with the frequency response. This is a can of worms..

I guess the only way to test a system is with reference recordings which are not bright but neutral. Ussually such recordings sound very natural with good systems. They almost sound analogue. Once you achieve this, the system will just reproduce what is in the recording. My belief is making the components as invisible and hi-resolution as possible within a given budget. One thing to remember is the issue of subjectivity. All hi-rez equipment irrespective of their price, distort the signal to a certain extant. This is where voicing comes in. So ones taste plays a big role here when it comes to selecting equipment even if they are hi-rez.

Although I agree that the ear-brain thingy with all individuals are different (Fletcher-Munson curves and all that), it surely does not make a highly distorted equipment “good” just because an individual cannot make out the difference. It is definitely not the Fletcher-Munson curve of an individual which makes him like distorted equipment It could be that the individual is not exposed enough to good sound or lack the interest or capability to perceive the difference. Practically speaking, the distorted equipment may work for the individual at that point of time but if he is of the ‘audiophile variety” he will be soon on the upgrade path as most guys on this forum would surely have discovered for themselves.

I guess, if we have to take into account the “Fletcher-Munson curves” effect in audio, we will need to design audio equipment for each individual after studying his ear ‘s response which is not very practical right ???
Taking this further, let’s take the example of person “X” listening to an un-amplified LIVE jazz/classical performance. Now if you record the same and the same person “X” listens to the same in his listening room assuming correctly that his “Fletcher-Munson curve” is the same, won’t better equipment with lesser distortion entertain him better than lesser equipment? Won’t it remind him better of the same performance he had listened with the same ears with the same Fletcher-Munson curve ???

Now there is a room for an argument here that a hi-rez equipment of a different variety (one which compliments his ear’s response better) may entertain him EVEN BETTER. Now that is true. This is where the individual has to do his home work.

bombaywalla wrote :

Ach! you got this preface from Audio Perfectionist! I'm quite familiar w/ Richard Hardestry's writings in his AP magazine.

yes I did get it as when I read this n felt so would make for an interesting discussion in our forum..now see how many have posted their point of views... it's fun..anyways what do you feel about this

Here you’ll learn about all the things the commercial magazines and underground publications either don’t know or don’t want you to know. And you won’t find any advertising. If we rave about a component it’s because we think that it offers high performance and value, not because we rely on the manufacturer’s advertising money for survival.

Taking this further, let’s take the example of person “X” listening to an un-amplified LIVE jazz/classical performance. Now if you record the same and the same person “X” listens to the same in his listening room assuming correctly that his “Fletcher-Munson curve” is the same, won’t better equipment with lesser distortion entertain him better ?

you mean it would entertain him better than live performmance??or you are trying to make a statement that it would mostly get close as I can sum it up from your statement below..

Won’t it remind him better of the same performance he had listened with the same ears with the same Fletcher-Munson curve ???

Practically speaking, the distorted equipment may work for the individual at that point of time but if he is of the ‘audiophile variety” he will be soon on the upgrade path as most guys on this forum would surely have discovered for themselves.

Seen some guys who pick up stuff as it's sold at cheap price out of greed and cry over spilt milk than wait and save up for some time to buy real genuine ones..This ones appropraite for them ..just an excerpt from an online Hifi store..

If a deal seems to good to be true it almost certainly is. Dont be suckered by your own greed.

Arjun wrote :

So even if you have a system sounding FLAT, your brain will not recognise it as the ears characteristics change it !

Here's more to add about our ears n I'll try to write it here......as the sound pressure waves comes to your ears and the auricle which functions to collect and focus sound waves into your ear...From there the sound pressure waves move into the ear canal, a simple tube running to the middle ear. This tube amplifies frequencies in the range 3 kHz to 12 kHz...see even our ears bump up certain frequencies and ofcourse sound is transmitted into your inner ear by process called Acoustic reflex..( to all those who hate reflected sound please bear the fact that without this we would be deaf as rock )...

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Taking this further, let’s take the example of person “X” listening to an un-amplified LIVE jazz/classical performance. Now if you record the same and the same person “X” listens to the same in his listening room assuming correctly that his “Fletcher-Munson curve” is the same, won’t better equipment with lesser distortion entertain him better ? you mean it would entertain him better than live performmance??or you are trying to make a statement that it would mostly get close as I can sum it up from your statement below.. Won’t it remind him better of the same performance he had listened with the same ears with the same Fletcher-Munson curve ???

I meant “better than lesser equipment”. I have edited my original post. Sorry for the confusing sentence.

so basically the ear has a similiar DSP as a Bose system
(Which also amplifies freq in that area.. although it also does it in the 200 Hz range )

so basically the ear has a similiar DSP as a Bose system (Which also amplifies freq in that area.. although it also does it in the 200 Hz range )

There you see why most like Bose then??? and we endlessly tire to attain when Dr.Bose knows what our ears
want.. ...I shall surrender my ears to Dr.bose...

amen

Won’t it remind him better of the same performance he had listened

To this I vote as for as a good set up shud always remind us as a guitar is a guitar and not sitar.. and mostly agree to your first point i.e.

won’t better equipment with lesser distortion entertain him better ?

..as we can see most in live performances don't give us desired listening pleasure as instruments are more sharper in sound seperation thru freq range and some sounds do come faster to your ear so recording actually compensates for some meek inequalities as well as puts things in order which finally gives us a refined sound provided a good set up as at your dispo..IMHO though

By live performance I meant un-amplified variety. At least the live un-amplified Jazz you get to hear at Java city outlets. They are such a pleasure to listen to. Not the ear piercing, harsh Bangalore palace ground rock show variety.

By live performance I meant un-amplified variety. At least the live un-amplified Jazz you get to hear at Java city outlets. They are such a pleasure to listen to. Not the ear piercing, harsh Bangalore palace ground rock show variety.

if you make a mention of unamplified jazz it's diffrent and almost like undiluted nectar..rock shows in bangalore..gosh they are a pain and makes people who love rock music dislike it and those who dislike rock music would definetely hate it when it can be enjoyed soo much..

We have to go a way to achieve good PA sound. Majority of the audience are not bothered, so I guess it is going to be a long wait. Notable exceptions are bands with un-compromising quality standards like Pink floyd. The Roger waters show was pretty good.

well..I dont think anyone would care for that high quality in a PA system. (Come to think of it how many care in a HOME system )

The area is too big and diverse and the crowd more interested in the boogy factor than clarity/separation

honestly even in the unamplified jazz pubs i have been to,
these things do not matter