Can Hifi Kill You? (besides financially)

The unsafest place on Earth is the Human Mind.

DONT scare yourself to Death !

Kill you Financially !!

That is a strange one;

I am sure most [well I am guessing here] of out forum members have an 'Audio Set Up' that costs less than a Plasma TV, so where is the Financial Burden here ??

Most of us [pardon my synicism] do not know what the word Hi-Fi means, Low-Fi is best what we manage.

In any case, to get to the 'Can the Hi-Fi Kill you' part of it, I for one have never heard of any person getting 'physically' hurt with audio gear.

Hom many members on this forum have audio gear that weighs more than 50 kgs a piece ? Problems in lifting [back etc.]
Would love to know.....

BOB

Bob_Ludwig schrieb:

Hom many members on this forum have audio gear that weighs more than 50 kgs a piece ? Problems in lifting [back etc.] Would love to know..... BOB

My new amp should tip well over 25 kgs..nothing in the 50kg category though..maybe a 60-80 watt class A would weigh around 50-60 kGs..
and my DIY speakers should be around 30kgs a piece.

I think Rajesh's Onix Reference 2s are pretty heavy too.

I know one thing, that if I start to talk about any more acquisitions or building new stuff my parents will 'kill' me .

I remember Prithvi injuring his back tugging some really heavy equipment.

Well BIAS a tube amp and if by mistake you touch the wrong led esp on the JADIS well


Satyam.

To get killed may not be easy, but you can get broken toes if you manage to drop some of he Hi end remotes on them

Shahrukh schrieb:

I remember Prithvi injuring his back tugging some really heavy equipment.

Very True Shahrukh, hurt my back many times lifting those huge speakers and power amps. Should have use a hand truck! To all you guys out there dont ever try lifting big speakers and power amps, It just screws ur back. I know what I have been through. Its not worth it at all.

Take care folks! Learn't the hard way

Hi sbfx,
I take it that tube amps carry high voltage. Do they store this voltage even after they are switched off (by using caps)? Is valve failure always a fire risk?

Hi Bob,
When I said "kill you financially" I meant every word
My brother spent several lakhs on Bose equipment. Now he doesn't have enough money to put phone calls

Hi Prithvi,
I'm real sorry about your back. What occasioned this thread is my mother asking me to shift our Sony TV. I got low back pain as a result. So I wanted to warn other forum members. I remember when I was looking for speakers a year ago, I was unable to budge Sonodyne 2605 flrs. They were real value and sounded good too. But the thought of a careless maid knocking them over was too scary for words. I have a grouch both with the weight and stability of flrs. I regretted not buying them earlier but in hindsight I am glad that I didn't have to take their weight

Hi Sachi,
Isn't a 60kg amp just stupidity? Why torture yourself when you can get something good sounding within 15kgs. We guys get too macho at times for our own good.

guys...whats the wt of an amp gotta do with the way it sounds...??? it just beats me man...also, does havin a heavy speaker (driver)/ bigger (more powerful magnet) usaully mean that its a better performer...???

hey neutral...
you seem be the only guy on the forum to have sonodyne sonus 2605...i ve just bought them and paired with a yammy rxv457...whats you take on them...other than that they are heavy..

thanx / nindo

Neutral schrieb:

Hi Sachi, Isn't a 60kg amp just stupidity? Why torture yourself when you can get something good sounding within 15kgs. We guys get too macho at times for our own good.

Well there was a company called Apogee and they and they had a pair of speakers called the Scintilla that could be configured to work at an impedance of 1ohm!..later versions were all 1 ohm impedance...i have read people narrating stories of huge big name amps dying while trying to drive these power hungry speakers...
now am not saying that I have a pair of Scintillas(how i wish )..
but a Class A needs loads of heatsinking..pure Class A of 60-70 watts needs massive power supplies and heatsinking.
The faceplate and the case itself add to the weight.

Don't go by the quality of the cases taht we are used to like NAD and crap..what am talking aboutis Mark& Levinson, Bryston, Krell and the rest of their clan.

I agree you have good sounding amps which weigh almost next to nothing..but they are not capable of driving low efficiency/sensitivity speakers for extended periods of time without clipping or without the protection circuits being triggered).
say you have a 3 way(such as mine) or a dipole 3 way with 12 inch drivers with a Bl factor of 20 or more each..now you wouldn't even be able to budge these cones one bit with weeny amps..they demand current and the higher the output of the amp the higher the volatage rating of the transformer..thus the bigger the transformer(higher VA rating) and the need for huge filter(stiffning) capacitances...it all adds up..
To build an amp that would be thermally stable and provide sufficient current with enough reserves on tap continuosly would invariably be heavy.
Add to that binding posts, screws, wires, knobs, protrection circuits(relays, fuses..)
One of the most heavy amp(Hi-fi) i have so far read about is the Harman KArdon Citation..a whopping 100Kgs!
There are heavier ones that look like an old fashioned ovens which were 3 feet high..that too for Hi-Fi purporsees..in fact Pink Floyd bought many of these amps and used them in their concerts way back in the late seventies..

nindo schrieb:

guys...whats the wt of an amp gotta do with the way it sounds...??? it just beats me man...also, does havin a heavy speaker (driver)/ bigger (more powerful magnet) usaully mean that its a better performer...??? hey neutral... you seem be the only guy on the forum to have sonodyne sonus 2605...i ve just bought them and paired with a yammy rxv457...whats you take on them...other than that they are heavy.. thanx / nindo

Dear Nindo,

I have the yammy 450 and i can state for a fact that it is one among the lightest receivers around..
The one you have is the updated model of the 450..
I need to really crank up the volume sometimes to produce discernable hearing levels in HT mode..

Thanks Sachi for the explanation. Motto of your story: Avoid low sensitivity or low impedance speakers if you want a light amp. A typical Class AB amp delivering 60W weighs around 12kgs. So I guess adding another 40kg to get Class A is painful.
Better alternative: Listen to music soft as I do. Then you can carry your amp by one hand! Sachi, forced air cooling avoids the need for a big heatsink. Seen pro amps with that option. But fans add to the SPL level.

Nindo,
I sure liked the 2605 (when played back at Oranges & Lemons with a Sonodyne stereo amp)but couldn't buy it because I live in a "female-dominated" household. I guess you know what that implies. Besides the speaker's weight, my room is too small to require its monstrous power.

ani schrieb:

To get killed may not be easy, but you can get broken toes if you manage to drop some of he Hi end remotes on them :)

Specially a Wadia CD Player's remote. It is more of a weapon than a remote. 861 i.e.

BOB

Neutral schrieb:

Hi sbfx, Hi Bob, When I said "kill you financially" I meant every word My brother spent several lakhs on Bose equipment. Now he doesn't have enough money to put phone calls Hi Sachi, Isn't a 60kg amp just stupidity? Why torture yourself when you can get something good sounding within 15kgs. We guys get too macho at times for our own good.

Hi !

Spending Several Lacs on Bose is rather difficult. The Top of their Line Bose 901 Series VI currently carries a retail price of US $'s 1,350/- http://www.shopping.com/xPC-Bose_901_VI

Besides if your brother [sorry for getting personal] does not have enough money to pay his phone bills could always sell his 'Bose' System on Audiogon & get enough money to buy 'New Phones' !!!!

Forget 60KG amplifiers, I went to someones place a while back - 2 years maybe - & he had a 150 watt power amplifier 'Pure Class A' & the damn thing weighed 92 KGs. Mad - Absolutely Mad !!! I wonder how he moved it into his room ????
Here, I would tend to agree with Prithvi, heavy audio gear can break your back - specially the new Linn Active Speakers - Komri - 90 KGs.
http://www.linn.co.u...612&CFTOKEN=76263208

BOB

Bob_Ludwig schrieb:

Forget 60KG amplifiers, I went to someones place a while back - 2 years maybe - & he had a 150 watt power amplifier 'Pure Class A' & the damn thing weighed 92 KGs. Mad - Absolutely Mad !!! I wonder how he moved it into his room ???? Here, I would tend to agree with Prithvi, heavy audio gear can break your back - specially the new Linn Active Speakers - Komri - 90 KGs. http://www.linn.co.u...612&CFTOKEN=76263208 BOB

Dear Bob,
whih was the amp..?

And from what i read and see on the web..the Linn Komri's are to die for.


Regards,
Savyasaachi

The Canasya weighs 50Kg per mono blcok so effectively it is 100-Kg's of stereo amplification

Satyam.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

And from what i read and see on the web..the Linn Komri's are to die for.

Er... if you'd die for them, how would you enjoy them??

LOL, jus kidding,:D yes I believe they're brilliant!

Heavy weight hi-fi equipment has its own advantages. But I guess you need a permanent listening room and you should be one of those guys who do not travel around much. Get help and move it to its position and forget it. If you tend to move around a lot like I do, I would suggest you stay off heavy-hifi.

Say Bob,
Did you suggest a heresy like 'sell' his Bose equipment. Hifi crazies like us would gladly give up both phone and car before giving up Hifi. And the Bose equipment (home theatre + stereo) cost around 4+ lakhs.
I sure love to hear great equipment like Linn, Krell, Bryston, Martin Logan in a showroom. But take them home. Na! All jobs are transferable today and I wouldn't want to be 'weighed' down.

Hi Sachi,
Don't ever say that you will die for something. You are worth more than a ton of audio equipment. Put yourself first, then any equipment.
I didn't understand what you meant by "BI factor". A question on your DIY project? If you are using big drivers, is there any bass boom at higher volumes?

Neutral schrieb:

Hi Sachi, Don't ever say that you will die for something. You are worth more than a ton of audio equipment. Put yourself first, then any equipment. I didn't understand what you meant by "BI factor". A question on your DIY project? If you are using big drivers, is there any bass boom at higher volumes?

whoa!..it was just an expression and the pun was very much intended.

Bl factor is the figure of merit.
One might say it is used to indicate the potential power of the magnet.

the 10 inch driver i am using is rated at 12.7 Bl and is pretty powerful.
Can take a lot more than itis rated for.
No, as of ow i am not facing any boom from these drivers.
I was a bit skeptical about my design ..but once i heard it in Arasu's place and then again at my place, i am hugely relieved.
In fact, i can turn my new amp to full blast and you have absolutely no distortion from any of the drivers.


Square Wave..I would definitely agree to your view, but i will instead stick to a high end pair of cans,DAC and Amp setup rather than a mediocre hifi setup.

Savyasaachi,
It is true cans are the best for people on transferable jobs. But I just can’t stand cans for long periods of time. For me music has to happen outside my head. Cans are never an alternative for me. Recently I tried the Allesandro (modded grado) in my system. Played off the TS Lim modded cd67 as well as from the Nad amp. The grado can’t hold a candle to the sound from the AP MS-301 in all departments.

square_wave schrieb:

Savyasaachi, It is true cans are the best for people on transferable jobs. But I just can’t stand cans for long periods of time. For me music has to happen outside my head. Cans are never an alternative for me. Recently I tried the Allesandro (modded grado) in my system. Played off the TS Lim modded cd67 as well as from the Nad amp. The grado can’t hold a candle to the sound from the AP MS-301 in all departments.

Allesandro is not what i would call a high end pair of cans and the NAD is an okay amp to use for hi-Fi use,let alone for headphone duties. A purpose built headphone amp+DAC would beat even the best CDPs when it comes to clarity and resolution.
I am used to headphones(no speakers for my desktop) and find them enjoyable. But , yeah they can get stressful over long durations.

While cans offer all kinds of advantages over the noraml setup, i feel there is nothing to beat a conventional system when it comes to really enjoying music.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Savyasaachi, It is true cans are the best for people on transferable jobs. But I just can’t stand cans for long periods of time. For me music has to happen outside my head. Cans are never an alternative for me. Recently I tried the Allesandro (modded grado) in my system. Played off the TS Lim modded cd67 as well as from the Nad amp. The grado can’t hold a candle to the sound from the AP MS-301 in all departments. Allesandro is not what i would call a high end pair of cans and the NAD is an okay amp to use for hi-Fi use,let alone for headphone duties. A purpose built headphone amp+DAC would beat even the best CDPs when it comes to clarity and resolution. I am used to headphones(no speakers for my desktop) and find them enjoyable. But , yeah they can get stressful over long durations. While cans offer all kinds of advantages over the noraml setup, i feel there is nothing to beat a conventional system when it comes to really enjoying music.

Yeah. I still feel I will enjoy a purpose built hi-end valve-pre and class A power amp feeding the MS-301 more than any can on my head.

[quote="Savyasaachi"][quote="Neutral"]

Don't go by the quality of the cases taht we are used to like NAD and crap..what am talking aboutis Mark& Levinson, Bryston, Krell and the rest of their clan.

..[/quote]
Krell and Mark levinson… yes……..but bryston ??? no sir………I would prefer a NAD Silverline or master series power amp over any Bryston anyday.

[quote="square_wave"][quote="Savyasaachi"][quote="Neutral"]

Don't go by the quality of the cases taht we are used to like NAD and crap..what am talking aboutis Mark& Levinson, Bryston, Krell and the rest of their clan.

..[/quote]
Krell and Mark levinson… yes……..but bryston ??? no sir………I would prefer a NAD Silverline or master series power amp over any Bryston anyday.[/quote]
was talking about quality of the cases..not SQ.

benks wrote :

Don't go by the quality of the cases taht we are used to like NAD and crap..what am talking aboutis Mark& Levinson, Bryston, Krell and the rest of their clan.

I personally liked what krell offers..dude NAD is way ahead than many real shit costing equpiments in finish dept.

Can Hifi Kill You? (besides financially

yes provided you have bass horn vertical arrays stacked up and prefer to play it really insane..your neighbours shall stone you to death...

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

benks wrote : Don't go by the quality of the cases taht we are used to like NAD and crap..what am talking aboutis Mark& Levinson, Bryston, Krell and the rest of their clan. I personally liked what krell offers..dude NAD is way ahead than many real shit costing equpiments in finish dept.

its not just the finish...the sophistication that goes into making a cabinet. U don't find it in the mass market stuff. just open up a NAD 320BEE and you'll see the poor layout..especially the PCB.

Also, the chassis made of mild steel not aluminium r stainless steel.
reason, costs!
u take any other bigbrand name and u'll see the hous of machinig, Grypohn or even some jeff Rowland products for that matter.
just loking at the fit and finish,U'll soon realise where half your money went.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Can Hifi Kill You? (besides financially yes provided you have bass horn vertical arrays stacked up and prefer to play it really insane..your neighbours shall stone you to death... :?

Now we are talking!

u take any other bigbrand name and u'll see the hous of machinig, Grypohn or even some jeff Rowland products for that matter. just loking at the fit and finish,U'll soon realise where half your money went.

Savyasaachi, how can you compare NAD with Jeff Rowland and Gryphon? And if you made that mistake - as an owner - I am very much honoured - comparing the price I paid for my NAD C352. It comes very very close to some other integrated costing $1200-$2500.

milpai schrieb:

u take any other bigbrand name and u'll see the hous of machinig, Grypohn or even some jeff Rowland products for that matter. just loking at the fit and finish,U'll soon realise where half your money went. Savyasaachi, how can you compare NAD with Jeff Rowland and Gryphon? And if you made that mistake - as an owner - I am very much honoured - comparing the price I paid for my NAD C352. It comes very very close to some other integrated costing $1200-$2500.

hey, i too am an owner of a NAD 320Bee and i paid less than 9000 for a brand new one.

What i wanted to point out was that the quality levels in the PCB was not up to the mark. even by entry level standards.
If u want to, just open up ur amp and take a look at the PCB. If u know about PCB desiginig then u'll know what i am talking about.

And don't be fooled by the big name brands. For instance, there is a particular Jeff Rowland amp that costs over 2000$ and uses the same power amp ICs that i have used in my DIY amp.
The main difference is that the case is made from one solid block of aluminium.
U see where ur moneey is going.
and of course the pakcaging is excellent.

my own Diy amp is a bit messy right now and will be re wiring some of the signals to make the layout look more uniform and eye pleasing.

Besides the NAD 320BEE is an okay amp.
if are asking if its worth the 9 k i spent.
yes! it is worth...anything more than that would have been foolish on my part.
its just MHO.

Sachi, Mohan, Square,
A technical question. How much power does an amp really consume?
Class A: the entire stated electricity power irrespective of the output power.
Class AB: How much power does this amp consume at low, medium, and hi volume? Say a 100W amp is being played soft. How much power is it drawing from the mains? Have you ever measured?
Class D: ?

My electricity bills are touching 800 a month. A bit worried that music is turning expensive.

Say folks, a Bryston has a 20 year warranty. With that life, who cares how it sounds?

Nad's a steal for 9000. I really admire you Sachi. I guess Big Ears helped in this. Are the prices still so cheap in Dubai when the Indian price is 21,000?

i guess a good No to go by that is efficiency ie how much of input power is converted to output power

for class A it is 10-20 %
Class AB is around 60-80 % (I think) could be lesser

I believe class D are higher than 90 %

hence then above percentage is an indicator of how much of power get converted to audio power.

but audio power is an is a very different animal in Class AB and D

a 30 W amp can sound more powerful than a 80 W amp. the reason being that the impedance of a speaker varies so much with freq that it is not the "Rating" of an amp which is important , but the amount of power it can output at each impendance point and also how fast it can change the output as per the demand of the signal ( ie the music) usually given by the slew rate.

hence 30 W at 8 ohms actually has no manening as at 20 Hz, the impedance might actually be 3 Ohms and at that impedace the power rating might be only 40W while the dynamics of music might want 100W.

so finding out power consumed may not be all that easy

on a sidenote, One of the reasons a NAD/Rotel sounds better than some other budget amsp is that their dynamic power rating is upto 3 times their nominal rating hence sounding more powderful

Arj schrieb:

i guess a good No to go by that is efficiency ie how much of input power is converted to output power for class A it is 10-20 % Class AB is around 60-80 % (I think) could be lesser I believe class D are higher than 90 % hence then above percentage is an indicator of how much of power get converted to audio power. but audio power is an is a very different animal in Class AB and D a 30 W amp can sound more powerful than a 80 W amp. the reason being that the impedance of a speaker varies so much with freq that it is not the "Rating" of an amp which is important , but the amount of power it can output at each impendance point and also how fast it can change the output as per the demand of the signal ( ie the music) usually given by the slew rate. hence 30 W at 8 ohms actually has no manening as at 20 Hz, the impedance might actually be 3 Ohms and at that impedace the power rating might be only 40W while the dynamics of music might want 100W. so finding out power consumed may not be all that easy on a sidenote, One of the reasons a NAD/Rotel sounds better than some other budget amsp is that their dynamic power rating is upto 3 times their nominal rating hence sounding more powderful

Hey Arjun,

Your points are pretty much spot on.

Class AB has a theoritical maximum efficiency of 78.5%

The reason i was talking about the power supplies and how massive they have to be is precielsy the reason that u have quoted and that which i have pointed out earlier.

Note that impedance is given by
Impedance(Z) = XL + XC + R Where
XL = 2.pie.fL and XC = 1/(2.pie.fC)

'f' being the frequency.

Hypothetically speaking, as the impedance approaches 0, the current approaches infinity.
Now, in real world conditions such a condition does not exist.
However, when the impeadnce drops it means that the load(speaker voice coil) demands higher current.
Now, to have higher current the transformers need to be capable of supplying that much current and a little extra.

Thus, if the amp is to be stable at low impedance levels(if the load is presented as a low impedance one for extended periosds..more than 3 seconds) the current or VA rating of the transformer would have to appropritely higher and of course the amplifier topology and biasing has to keep the drivers and output stagees well within the SOA, lest you would see your speaker drivers melt and smoulder(if adequate speaker protection circuitry is not provided).