Planar speakers

excellent idea!!

actually i think i have a spare PEC carbon potentiometer that is a pretty decent quality..very organic sounding but some channel imbalace at low turn levels and scratchniess. Will rig something up with it tomorrow during lunch time and give it a whirl.

Saachi, wondering if this has anything to do w/ the ground lift switch on the Plinius? if the ground is lifted you might not have a ground to the preamp? just a thought.....

Chief, the 10 Ohm resistor I guess is between the input Ground and the Main Ground of the device. Its used to 'discourage' ground loops / ground current.

IMHO think you have a Massive Gnd loop, where So much current is flowing thru the 10 ohm that it smokes ..

DEFINITELY a Ground loop problem.... ( IMHO Ofcourse ! )

Guys,

The ground loop is definitely the problem.

There is no ground lift switch on the SA-100MK2..only on the MK3.


THe loop i believe is coming from the output jack and input jack being side by side.

SO the preamp output ground is tied to the input RCA jack to the headphone/preamp. The preamp ground should ideally be tied to the SG on the amp. Of course there could be other ground loops that I am not seeing.

I take it no one has exposure to Van Alstine's products?

I have an offer for a Insight SL+ with remote (MSRP with this option is 1250$) for half the price from a local seller.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Guys, The ground loop is definitely the problem. There is no ground lift switch on the SA-100MK2..only on the MK3. THe loop i believe is coming from the output jack and input jack being side by side. SO the preamp output ground is tied to the input RCA jack to the headphone/preamp. The preamp ground should ideally be tied to the SG on the amp. Of course there could be other ground loops that I am not seeing.

why is the EHHA-Plinius combination creating a ground loop when the EHHA-Marl Levinson combination did not??
Traditionally, the preamp is grounded & it supplies the ground to the source & the power amp thru the RCA cables (or XLR cables).
If it is confirmed that the ground loop is the culprit then it seems that the Plinius is grounded as well (whereas the M-L was not) & then I can see why one would have a ground loop. Hence the ground lift switch. And, I thought that all Plinius amps came with this ground lift switch hence am surprised that the SA100Mk2 did not.
So, what do you do now? Use a cheater plug for the power amp? Send the amp to Plinius USA to get a ground lift switch installed or DIY one? Buy a preamp that has a ground lift switch (none come to mind right now)? something else?

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I take it no one has exposure to Van Alstine's products? I have an offer for a Insight SL+ with remote (MSRP with this option is 1250$) for half the price from a local seller.

correct!
see what you got yourself into??? all you wanted to do was listen to a planar speaker!! And, you are hip-deep into the quagmire!!!

haha

indeed right..

well in all honestly i have double the investment in my headphone rig than i have now in my speaker rig.

Selling off half of my headphone system to strike a 50/50 balance between the amount i have in the two guilty pleasures.

Same questions i am having too Bombaywalla. One thing I want to test is try the plinius with a factory built preamp and not something DIY'ed where things could go wrong.

The EHHA makes a wonderful preamp but i think i might have introduced the ground loop in it. But then this doesn't explain it working fine with the ML.

THe Van alstine might take pride of place while i scheme and think out my hot rodded Aikido preamp build. The power supply for which is already built up..will only need to throw in a CLC filter. But that's like 20% of the work done only.

So io take it the ground lift switch is just a ground loop breaker..?

800$ shipped for a plinius CD-LAD preamp sound fair enough to you chaps? WOuld like to buy a TAD 150..but man those things go FAST!

My advice for buying ANY (even Pre-Owned) Hi Fi.....

Prices / bargains are secondary....

MOST Important, LISTEN. If you dont get the opportunity to listen before buying.... Dont buy.

Aye indeed amp nut...completely agree with you..but as with anything you never know how it will sound when you get it home. The way i waded through the multitude of headphones and headphone amplifiers the last 4 years was to actually own it and experience it for a while. SUre i lost some money in the process but i did come off knowing and learning what gear I liked and more importantly i learned what is it in the music that i look for that makes me smile, cry, send shivers down my spine sorta thing.

So i rigged up waht is basically a passive pre using a PEC carbon potentiometer. The amp works just fine so it is a wiring mistake on my part in the EHHA. Gotto figure it out and throw in a ground loop breaker in it as well.

Result is...the plinius blows the mark levinson away. The sheer power is fully brought to the forefront.

I honestly wasn't ready for waht i am hearing. WHo the fuck said one needs a sub with a pair of magnepans?!!..one just needs the right amp..synergy. The top end too which i felt was a little tilted in the ML isn't present with the plinius. There are some things that i feel aren't brought forward with the plinius however, mainly in the high frequencies. This could be tied to the passive pre or the fact that my EHHA actually is one of the best sounding headphone amps i have heard. SO a pre would be interesting to see what it will do to the rig.

okay..here are some money shots..





btw..this new zeland puppy gets warm..super warm..fast!

Sachi

Could you not rig up a passive unit until you figured out your components ?
It will help you hear the plinius power amp and give you time to look.

The plinius pre should work out though

Manek

heh..looks like we posted at the same time Manek.

I am going to try and find a box to make this passive pre setup permanent while i work on my hotrodded aikido build.

Hi Savyasaachi,

Since you are now getting into a DIY volume control, may I suggest the following :

1. Fir a simple potentiometer volume control, add 1 more resistor and a slight change in the connection. I Assure you, you will hear a small but distinct improvement in the sound output..

You have currently connected as follows :

Audio Input
to
Potentiometer Top
Potentiometer Wiper to Audio Out
Potentiometer Bottom
to
Ground


Add 1 ( Preferably High Quality ) resistor, any low wattage and of a similar ( not even necessarily exact) ohm value as the Potentiometer.

Your new Volume control circuit would be :

Audio Input
to
One end of Fixed Resistor
to
Other End Of Fixed Resistor : Is The Audio Output
to
Potentiometer Top
Potentiometer Wiper shorted to Potentiometer Bottom
Potentiometer Bottom
to
Ground


Would be Great to hear yr feedback ...

If you plan to make a SERIOUSLY good passive volume control, do read up on the 'LightSpeed' Volume Control in DIYAudio.com

Its a Long thread....

Incidentally, SOTA amp maufacyirers like Gart Zeel using the same (Lightspeed)_ concept, and reports are that they even tried to patent ( Pirated patent ? )the concept, till the Lightspped's original inventor came out of the closet on DIYaudio.com

Aye Amp nut..basically shunting the potentiometer.

This is waht i do in all my headphone amplifiers. There is a marked improvement for sure.

I just did a quick and dirty hack job out of the passive pre now...once i locate a box and some RCA jacks i will throw in the shunt mod...i have a pair of rikens or takmans (both i have used previously exclusively for this role)..might check out nude vishays or caddocks as well for this.

RIkens have a long break in period.

edit: the lightspeed attenuator is a very good choice too and i've read getting a good matched pair is PITA. I like the idea of an Aikido and will be going this route first. John Broskie's design is very famous and i love his articles.

I will look into building a lightspeed attenuator as well eventually.

can you just get one of those TVC preamps of A'gon ?

Have no experience with TVC preamps Arj..are they supposed to be any good? I remember a thread a while back here and a bunch of you were going gaga over it.

not me :)i am not an expert on preamps hence prefer Int amps . but if you get the transformer right, they are supposed to be better than a resistor since, among other things, they provide the same resistance/impedance across all volumes unlike resistor based.

Arj said:

but if you get the transformer right, they are supposed to be better than a resistor since, among other things, they provide the same resistance/impedance across all volumes unlike resistor based.

Arj, like you, I am not a passive-pre fan.

The TVCs also provide Much Better Drive Current at their output, when the output voltage is lower than the input voltage ... basically transformer action boots the current wehn voltage is reduced ....

Right..well I am not a fan of passive pre amps whether TVC or not.

I fully am for an active preamp stage and hence the AIkido unless one of you can sway me towards other DIY designs taht you think warrants my attention

Savyasaachi said:

i've read getting a good matched pair is PITA.

I suspect that the PITA reports are more to put off DIY enthu guys, so that they buy the lightspeed from George ( the original inventor ? )

Keep in mind that potentiometers dont track well at all, but are still used widely. Its the sound rather than the tracking that I think is most important, and the Lightspeed provides it at a VERY low cost..

Incidentally, MSB of this forum poinyed me at ... (IMHO !) is the Lightspeed taken to the next level in an excellently executed commercial Product by MYTH AUDIO

I like the idea of an Aikido and will be going this route first. John Broskie's design is very famous and i love his articles.

Some Links / references please ?

Should make good weekend reading for me.... THANKS !

http://www.tubecad.com/2004/blog0013.htm

http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/aikamp9pinbo.html

Thanks ..

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Aye indeed amp nut...completely agree with you..but as with anything you never know how it will sound when you get it home. The way i waded through the multitude of headphones and headphone amplifiers the last 4 years was to actually own it and experience it for a while. SUre i lost some money in the process but i did come off knowing and learning what gear I liked and more importantly i learned what is it in the music that i look for that makes me smile, cry, send shivers down my spine sorta thing. So i rigged up waht is basically a passive pre using a PEC carbon potentiometer. The amp works just fine so it is a wiring mistake on my part in the EHHA. Gotto figure it out and throw in a ground loop breaker in it as well. Result is...the plinius blows the mark levinson away. The sheer power is fully brought to the forefront. I honestly wasn't ready for waht i am hearing. WHo the fuck said one needs a sub with a pair of magnepans?!!..one just needs the right amp..synergy. The top end too which i felt was a little tilted in the ML isn't present with the plinius. There are some things that i feel aren't brought forward with the plinius however, mainly in the high frequencies. This could be tied to the passive pre or the fact that my EHHA actually is one of the best sounding headphone amps i have heard. SO a pre would be interesting to see what it will do to the rig. okay..here are some money shots.. btw..this new zeland puppy gets warm..super warm..fast! :L

excellent!
the Plinius amp looks are familiar to me. Yes, the amp in class-A mode gets hot very fast as it runs full power current in the output stage. In fact, this amp will be slightly cooler to the touch when driving a speaker 'cuz the current has a destination rather than being dissipated in the output devices themselves.
Re. the hig roll-off, if you read my earlier post (when you posted that you had bought the SA100) I did mention the same thing. The latter versions of this amp are better in this respect & the SA250 Mk4 practically eliminates the roll-off (of course @ a higher cost! )
Anyway, superb system so far. Get a preamp of your choice & you should be all-smiles thereafter....

Thanks!!

I will be on the lookout for a SA-250 MK4 or a Gamut D200 or a Symphonic Line RG1 MK4.

For now planning on a Aikido unity gain buffer as i feel the plinius has plenty of gain with the passive pre. SO a tubed unity gain buffer would be the way to go. THe ACF-2 seems like just the ticket.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Thanks!! I will be on the lookout for a SA-250 MK4 or a Gamut D200 or a Symphonic Line RG1 MK4.

can't speak about the Gamut D200 but I can say, for your particular MG1.6s load, forget the Symphonic Line RG1. Not enough grunt in that amp for a planar speaker. For what Abhi is using it for, it's very good. I feel that the SA-100 should easily out-do in terms of its ability to drive the speaker. Plus, the SA-100 is class-A while w/ the RG1 you will have only class-AB. Let me tell you, after having owned class-AB amps most of the time, the sound of a well-made class-A amp is quite unbeatable. Once you hear it, there is no going back (atleast for me ).

B'walla .. think about the Environment

heh arj, i am saving the environment!! No need to turn on the heater when i have this puppy going

B'walla..the SA-250 Mk4 it is then that i'll keep an eye out for. Try and see if I can audition it locally or in seattle . Going up there for a headphone meet at the Bottlehead COrp headquarters). next month

. think about the Environment

I think it was bhagwan69 who told me that many countries have declared a time table after Class A power amps will be banned .... just not 'green' enough.

Any links providing specific info on this, please ?

Arj schrieb:

B'walla .. think about the Environment :angel

heh, heh, heh!! the # of class-A amps in service in the world are very few compared to the # of incandescent light bulbs people use today.
Talk about an incandescent light bulb eating power! If we converted all those people (say, just in the city of Bombay) I'd have many years worth of electricity to run my class-A amp for many years!!
anyway, we are going solar soon (so sez our fearless leader Obama).......

Amp_Nut schrieb:

. think about the Environment I think it was bhagwan69 who told me that many countries have declared a time table after Class A power amps will be banned .... just not 'green' enough. Any links providing specific info on this, please ?

good thing you asked for links on this subject as I am interested in reading as well.
Thinking a little about it, it makes no sense to me. While it is true that class-A amps are power hogs, how many people actually own & operate a class-A amp? Of those who own & operate a class-A amp, how many total hours of use? Now, compare this to the # of people who have not yet converted to compact flourescent light-bulbs (CFL) & are still using incandescent light-bulbs. If a family of 4 has a multi-room house & each room has a few incandescent bulbs, how much waste of energy is that? Everyone (in comparison) has light-bulbs; a minute percentage of people have class-A amplifiers.
Back in the heydays of audio, class-A amps were a luxury & they still remain that way due to resources needed to build them. So, they'll remain a niche market. I say, let the manuf build them. The EU might be barking up the wrong tree...
There is a LOT more energy savings to be had from bigger global initiatives such as switching over to CFL or LED lighting, on-demand water-heaters (rather than always-on electric water heaters), putting more intelligence into white applicances (fridge, washer, dryer) so that they consume less electricity.

Are we onto a new Off-topic thread??? Arj, you are to blame!

Not just class A power amps... every appliance is being targetted by the 'Green Brigade'

I know for a fact that California has put a deadline to ban Plasma TV sets, since they hog too much power..


Incidentally, power starved India continiously bleeds more than 150 Mega Watts of power , only from TV sets in stadby... waiting for a command from the Remote Control, to turn them on ....

in the interests of the environment we shoudl all move to SETs and Single drivers/Horns

listening to DOn WIlliams and with the new mogami 3301 (thanks abhi!!) cables this system is keeping me all smiles.

Seriously, i can't believe how much a difference the low frequency has improved with the plinius over the ML.

The cable has also made very noticable differences. To the better i might add..no sibilance and edginess to it ..course i was using ratshack cables prior and this being a dare i say upper mid-fi rig does bring out the changes easily.

Researching tube preamps still..don't know if i want to go with the cathode follower based tube buffer or not..might opt for a full fledged aikido or some other pre amp design and employ output transformers (looking at you SILK from thailand) instead of capacitor coupled output.

bombaywalla schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: Thanks!! I will be on the lookout for a SA-250 MK4 or a Gamut D200 or a Symphonic Line RG1 MK4. can't speak about the Gamut D200 but I can say, for your particular MG1.6s load, forget the Symphonic Line RG1. Not enough grunt in that amp for a planar speaker. For what Abhi is using it for, it's very good. I feel that the SA-100 should easily out-do in terms of its ability to drive the speaker. Plus, the SA-100 is class-A while w/ the RG1 you will have only class-AB. Let me tell you, after having owned class-AB amps most of the time, the sound of a well-made class-A amp is quite unbeatable. Once you hear it, there is no going back (atleast for me ).

b'walla..how is the Symphonic Line RG4 Mk3 monoblock amps compared to the SA-250MK4?

Savyasaachi schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: Savyasaachi schrieb: Thanks!! I will be on the lookout for a SA-250 MK4 or a Gamut D200 or a Symphonic Line RG1 MK4. can't speak about the Gamut D200 but I can say, for your particular MG1.6s load, forget the Symphonic Line RG1. Not enough grunt in that amp for a planar speaker. For what Abhi is using it for, it's very good. I feel that the SA-100 should easily out-do in terms of its ability to drive the speaker. Plus, the SA-100 is class-A while w/ the RG1 you will have only class-AB. Let me tell you, after having owned class-AB amps most of the time, the sound of a well-made class-A amp is quite unbeatable. Once you hear it, there is no going back (atleast for me ). b'walla..how is the Symphonic Line RG4 Mk3 monoblock amps compared to the SA-250MK4?

SA-250 Mk4 is much better all around: can switch from class-AB to class-A, have 250W/ch as compared to 160W/ch, have more current delivery capacity, ground lift switch (which has become important for you in particular ).

right..i for some reason thought the RG4 was switchable from class A to AB.

GUess i'll save up for a SA-250MK4 or a Kraft 250/300(probably not happening lol). For the time being i am very happy with the plinius Sa-100.

A friend sent me the NHT PVC to use with the amp. It uses Jensen transformers for blocking DC and a crappy ALPS pot. But for 100$, it ain't too bad for a stop gap

heh talking of SA-250MK4s..one just turned up on audiogon..man i really need to stop browsing that site..i'll never be happy if i do that

Anyways..decided on a tube buffer stage instead of the NHT PVC i am using right now.

Building up a BOM for a very very nice 6922/6DJ8 based unity gain bufferwith a CCS based PS and CLC filtering, a high quality elna rotary selector switch, silk power transformer and TKD volume control. I have no need for any more gain. A tube buffer stage designed a by a good friend is jsut the ticket to getting this system to open up and really shine through.

Still playing around with placement issues. Getting new furniture as well tomorrow so that should change the dynamics in the room somewhat as well ..basically should act as absorbents.

I did take youradvice on the TV mucking up stuff and so have a blanket over it when i listen to music b'walla

Savyasaachi schrieb:

heh talking of SA-250MK4s..one just turned up on audiogon..man i really need to stop browsing that site..i'll never be happy if i do that Anyways..decided on a tube buffer stage instead of the NHT PVC i am using right now. Building up a BOM for a very very nice 6922/6DJ8 based unity gain bufferwith a CCS based PS and CLC filtering, a high quality elna rotary selector switch, silk power transformer and TKD volume control. I have no need for any more gain. A tube buffer stage designed a by a good friend is jsut the ticket to getting this system to open up and really shine through. Still playing around with placement issues. Getting new furniture as well tomorrow so that should change the dynamics in the room somewhat as well ..basically should act as absorbents. I did take youradvice on the TV mucking up stuff and so have a blanket over it when i listen to music b'walla :D

yup, I see it. And, it's a very good price too they used to go for $5K.....
If you have the money, buy it! you won't regret it & it will suffice for your amplifier needs from here on out. This amp can successfully drive 1-Ohm Apogee Scintillas and make the music sound good. So, that tells you something about the cojones of this amp.
You can sell the SA-100Mk2 & get back some of your money.

You know you want it..you feel it in your bones.

Buy it now or regret it for a long time

Arj schrieb:

You know you want it..you feel it in your bones. Buy it now or regret it for a long time :KR

heh, heh, heh!!
here's a nice prod Saachi.....

haha...naa..am gonna sti pretty with the SA-100 for a while. I like it thus far. Besides gots lots of other toys to invest in

gah!!..wtf is wrong with me...already looking at upgrading the speakers. DOn't get me wrong i lvoe the Magnepans..but an opportunity to own a single owner Apogee Duetta Signatures doesn't come up every so often these days.

I am told it is plug and play condition with none of the dreaded buzz..

Seriously thinking of buying these

http://www.audiogon....tta-Signature-full-r

Hey bombaywalla

Your verdict ?

Manek

Do the apogee Duettas also have the killer 1 ohm impedance ?

Savyasaachi schrieb:

gah!!..wtf is wrong with me...already looking at upgrading the speakers. DOn't get me wrong i lvoe the Magnepans..but an opportunity to own a single owner Apogee Duetta Signatures doesn't come up every so often these days. I am told it is plug and play condition with none of the dreaded buzz.. Seriously thinking of buying these http://www.audiogon....tta-Signature-full-r

Manek schrieb:

Hey bombaywalla Your verdict ? Manek

Hi Saachi, Manek,
My verdict is "go for it, Saachi!".
Saachi should talk to the seller & find out for sure what the condition of the ribbons is. If they have been refurbished Saachi should be fine; if not, the speakers could very well play just fine but the ribbons will need refurbishing in time (& that is quite expensive).
Nice sounding speaker - not too large, not too small. Might be a bit large for Saachi's 14X14 room as the speakers need room to breathe - 3'-4' from the wall behind the speaker & ~2' from the side walls. If you cannot manage that, then, don't waste your time as you will be disappointed. The Duetta/Duetta Sig have a much bigger footprint than the MG16QR, which are much slimmer, so their physical presence will crowd a smaller room.
EDIT: Saachi, I looked at your pix you posted in your post #45 & #63: the MG16 look very close together to me - not enough room to breathe. The Duetta/Duetta Sig will be even wider at the base (they are trapezoidal speakers) hence even closer together. IMHO you will not get the max out of the Duetta/Duetta Sig - they are too big for your room. According to me the slimmer profile of the MG1.6QR barely makes it.

Arj schrieb:

Do the apogee Duettas also have the killer 1 ohm impedance ?

No, they Duetta/Duetta Sig have a 4-Ohm impedance.

This is what I am worried about too B'walla.

I have 4 feet clearance from the rear wall and 2.5 feet on the side for the left speaker and only 14 inches on the right.

I have since last taking the pic moved the speakers 6.5-7 feet from each other (measuring from the center) and about 9 ft from tweeter to tweeter.

I just got off the phone with RIch Murry and he says a full restoration of drivers alone owuld cost me 3200$ not including shipping which would come out to 600(300+300 each way).

Assuming i get the speakers for say 2300, and i do the restoration with Graz ribbons it would come out to 2300 + 3200+ 600+200(driving up to yakima to pick up the speakers in the first place) = 6300-6500$.

No way i can make that sort of commitment right now..but if the speakers are truly in plug and play fashion and i am able to haul them from the current owner's place to mine without damaging anything i could possibly use them for a year and then get the restoration done when i have saved up money.


Rich also offered me a pair of Calipers fully restored, in cherry trim with new drivers and crossovers and only the back plate being original for 4k plus shiping...

This is tempting and is a whole lot less work involved on my end but then i'll always have that itch..yeah the upgraditis one lol


more time spent pondering then for me.