Ribbon tweeters

Hello SW !
I used to own Ribbon Speakers - still have 1 pair [for sale] with me.

They are 'excellent'
I really like them a lot.

I used to have a Sun Union Audio - Noble Expect.
Raven + Flex Units [Audio Technology] combination - book shelf speaker - installed in Pune. Sounds nice.

I still have a 2 way speaker with me.
Floor stander. Resurrection is what it is called.
Plays only with Tube Electronics. With SS it gets 'harsh'
It is a 7" Zealaton Woofer + Alain Bernand Ribbon in a transmission line - 2 way design. I like its sound.

The 'biggest' problem of using a Ribbon is to mate it with a dynamic woofer - very very difficult. Speeds are just too different.
More on Raal - later. One of the best Ribbons in the world as of today - in my opinion.

square_wave schrieb:

I have never heard a ribbon tweeter in my life. What are the benefits ?

Hi SW,

they are just extremely fast, especially the folded ribbons based on the Air Motion technology inveted by Oscar Heil. My circular ribbon tweeter which is used in my Genesis III speakers is not as fast as an Air Motion Transducer. But like bhagwan already pointed out, it's extremely difficult to integrate a ribbon tweeter. Same problem persists to integarte electrostatic and magnetostatic tweeter with a dynamic Mid/Bass driver. Since Oscar Heil's patent on this technology expired lot of new developments have come up. Most popular seem to be to AMTs by Mundorf an RAAL but also other manufacturers such as Burmester (based on the Elac AMT), Eton and Elac make very good ribbon tweeters.
But after all the fastest ever tweeter is still the plasma tweeter which is being used by ACapella and Lansche. Whereas ACapella really managed to integrate the plasma tweeter into their systems very well.
Regards,
Jochen

fastest ever tweeter is still the plasma tweeter which is being used by ACapella and Lansche. Whereas ACapella really managed to integrate the plasma tweeter into their systems very well.

This is an interesting observation...
I have heard Acapella & Lansche several times & this 'integration' has 'eluded' me....
but I still have a lot to learn & my hearing is not up to the mark as yet.

To get back to Ribbons & Eton AMT's
They are excellent devices & if implemented well with correct filters can sound superb.
Mundorf too has launced a new AMT.

Recently I was having a chat with an audiophile friend who think very highly of ribbons. According to him the RAAL is one of the finest available apart from some others like Raven. Some of the names elude me.

A week later another friend put me onto this small manufacturer based out of the USA.
http://selahaudio.com/id75.html

Lo and behold .... this guy designs almost all of this speakers with the RAAL tweeters ! The 140-15D as well as the 70-10. The woofers in his design are all scanspeak revelators and illuminators.
About the crossovers.

The deluxe crossovers use Clarity Cap, Auricap, KimberKap, or Mundorf capacitors in the tweeter and midrange sections. In some of the 3-way designs these are also implemented in the woofer portion of the crossover. The inductors are Goertz 16awg copper foil coils in places where the d.c. resistance is acceptable to maintain the optimal transfer function of the driver response. All resistors in the deluxe crossovers are Mills MRA-12 1% tolerance parts.

I expected some exhorbitant pricing. The prices are sane too.

I have almost nil experience with ribbons. Hence wondering.

goolimangala schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: I have never heard a ribbon tweeter in my life. What are the benefits ? Hi SW, they are just extremely fast, especially the folded ribbons based on the Air Motion technology inveted by Oscar Heil. My circular ribbon tweeter which is used in my Genesis III speakers is not as fast as an Air Motion Transducer. But like bhagwan already pointed out, it's extremely difficult to integrate a ribbon tweeter. Same problem persists to integarte electrostatic and magnetostatic tweeter with a dynamic Mid/Bass driver. Since Oscar Heil's patent on this technology expired lot of new developments have come up. Most popular seem to be to AMTs by Mundorf an RAAL but also other manufacturers such as Burmester (based on the Elac AMT), Eton and Elac make very good ribbon tweeters. But after all the fastest ever tweeter is still the plasma tweeter which is being used by ACapella and Lansche. Whereas ACapella really managed to integrate the plasma tweeter into their systems very well. Regards, Jochen

Good that you mentioned Oscar heils.

There is an oscar heil aulo for sale with a dealer I know at around 2k $ in the US.

This one.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/heil_aulos.htm

bhagwan69 schrieb:

fastest ever tweeter is still the plasma tweeter which is being used by ACapella and Lansche. Whereas ACapella really managed to integrate the plasma tweeter into their systems very well. This is an interesting observation... I have heard Acapella & Lansche several times & this 'integration' has 'eluded' me.... but I still have a lot to learn & my hearing is not up to the mark as yet.

Yes bhagwan,
I heard ACapellas with plasma now twice. Violoncello with Einstein pre and OTLs and recently Violon with the new LaMusika amp. Both the times the sound was exellent with flawless integration of the tweeter and the midtone horn. A kind of integration which was lacking with the Lansche speakers.

Regards,
Jochen

Hi squarewave

To give you a start on ribbons,you could visit an onkyo showroom selling elac and you would get a taste of ribbons.
Another would be the dali spkrs which have a ribbon + dome combo.
These should give you an introduction to ribbons.


Wonder if onkyo sight and sound still sell elac ???


Manek

I dont have any theoretical knowledge about ribbons but I have heard a few of them. As mentioned by Manek, Elac, Dali Helicon MK2, Maggie, Eminent Technology to name a few. None of them could I like . I am only talking about the high frequency. All of them were extremely detailed but way too hot and should I say somewhat artificial to my ears.

abhi.pani schrieb:

None of them could I like . I am only talking about the high frequency. All of them were extremely detailed but way too hot and should I say somewhat artificial to my ears.

Hi Abhi,

try one day to listen to the Heil Kithara http://www.precide.ch/eng/english.htm The only speaker Oscar Heil has ever approved for his Air Motian Tranducers. Some 15 years ago I had the opportunity to audition these speakers with Copland tube amps. It was a very pleasant (for may ears ) and musical listening experience. And knowing your listening habits I think you would enjoy these speakers as well.

Regards,
Jochen

Thanks for the suggestion Jochen, I will look forward to listening to it but looks like it is not an easy speaker to get access to .

Coming back to the topic, does that mean a good speaker around ribbons is pretty rare to find ?

abhi.pani schrieb:

Coming back to the topic, does that mean a good speaker around ribbons is pretty rare to find ?

I don't know because I have heard speakers with AMT-tweeters only four times:

1. I owned the original ESS AMT Monitor ( http://audio-database.com/ESS/speaker/amtmonitor-e.html ) many years back for about 2 months and sold it off because the tweeter was not well integrated with the woofer. ESS was the official and licensed manufacturer of the Heil Air Motion Transformer. They have built also 3 own loudspeaker models employing an AMT as tweeter. I read somewhere that Oscar Heil was never satisfied with the performance of these speakers because of the integration problem and later gave the permission to build to
2. Pricide of Switzerland who had developed the Kitharo speaker which I could hear once. I found the performance of this speaker very good.
3. Lithophone's "Miracle" speaker which I heard on the HighEnd Show in Munich in 2007 had impressed me (and bhagwan also as I remember) very much. Lithophone uses an AMT modified by Mundorf.
4. A Burmester speaker (can't remember the model) which used a modified Elac AMT. Didn't like this speaker because of sharp and sterile highs.

There are still so many speakers with AMTs especially in Germany, such as Ascendo, AudiaZ (using an Eton AMT modified by Tom Blumenhofer, Myro (very interesting speaker http://www.myro.de/ocean.html ), Sonus Natura and many more. So my experience with AMT tweeters till now is 50/50.

Regards,
Jochen

One more addition to the company Myro. In their flagship speaker "Heavens Gate" http://www.myro.de/html/hg-beschreibung.html they are using 3 of the original ESS AMTs for the highs, 2 Seas Excel mid drivers and 4 Eton 12" woofers (same which is used in Cadence Arca) . Would love to hear this speaker one day

Jochen

Have been hearing of VMPS speakers and got to hear the bookshelf many (y)ears back in singapore side by side with a meadowlark audio speaker. do not remember anything -ve about the VMPS and no one complained about any integration issues (it was a T-shirt distribution event at the local audio form ..so there was a sizeable knowledgeable crowd around)

I have a good friend here/local who owns a Selah Audio speaker (That Selah Audio will not build anymore) using Newform Research ribbons. it's actually a line-array speaker using SEAS 6.5" mid-bass drivers - 6 per speaker. The ribbons are external to the 6.5" woofer cabinet & stand in free-form by themselves in air. These ribbons are some 48" tall & are very heavy. Looks a bit cludgy but....
The integration is done very well (not as good as my Apogees ). I helped him change the xover caps to Mundorf & that took the perf of that speaker to another level.
These days Selah's cabinet encompasses the ribbons & mid-bass drivers.

The adv of ribbon-based speakers is that you get plenty of naturalness to the sound. The PRaT of the speaker is much improved & if your ribbon is an array (like many Selah Audio designs) then you engage your ceiling & floor & start trending towards an infinite baffle speaker. Now at this point your soundstage height & width begins to look like a live event if you listen in the near-field (8'-12'). Totally different listening experience.

SQ said:

I am not talking about full range ribbons like apogees but tweeter implementations.

Hi Bombaywalla,

I am looking for information on ribbon tweeter implementations(dynamic driver married with ribbons). Raven, RAAL etc.. seems to be the preferred tweeters among some of the more popular brands. There are of course so many out there which I have no idea about.

I liked the Selah implementations theoretically. But I have never heard a well implemented one before. Hence fishing for information.

square_wave schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, I am looking for information on ribbon tweeter implementations(dynamic driver married with ribbons). Raven, RAAL etc.. seems to be the preferred tweeters among some of the more popular brands. There are of course so many out there which I have no idea about. I liked the Selah implementations theoretically. But I have never heard a well implemented one before. Hence fishing for information.

OK, cool! nice to read the admission that you are fishing. Many people do the same but never admit it.

Re. which ribbon is preferred is a hard question to answer. The flavour of the month or quarter could be RAAL or Raven - I have no idea. The popular manuf. are just that - popular manuf. Do your own research & understand what is required of a ribbon to make it superior in sonic performance. Then, of course, it's the implementation by the speaker designer - does he know what he's doing?? Are you convinced that he knows what he's doing?? The RAAL or Raven just might be *the* ribbon to get - I don't know. I'm saying convince yourself 1st before you accept that empirical truth.
Listening 1-2-3-4 times will not do the trick completely. Often the issues surface over extended listening periods such as 50-100 hrs later. At that time it's too late to blame the speaker & you've long committed your money.
So, you'll have to embark on this journey & expend some resources & you can't let somebody else do the research for you otherwise you'll end up w/ somebody else's choice in your living room!
And.........................I'm not saying that it's going to be easy (it rarely is)!

Hi gang, this is getting interesting. Ribbon tweeters love them or loathe them. Firstly let us define a ribbon, Heil and planar magnetic, three different types of drivers.
The first two are ribbons that is the driver is also a conductor, the latter a foil as a piston with an etched voice coil. The Selah uses planar magnetic drivers mostly and pure ribbons in few models.
The Heil is a folded ribbon that combats two problems. Surface area increase by folding the ribbon for greater power handling and increasing throw. The Heil is based on an accordion principle, it not only moves back and forth but also compresses the air within the folds and throws it more efficiently.
Pure ribbons are impedence horrors and hence need transformer coupling, you are now down to how good the transformer is and how good a conductor the foil is.
All have advantages and disadvantages. The implementation of the hybrid needs to take into account several issues of polar response and wave launch of two different types of drivers for good results to come through.
Have I heard one? Well I have heard many, unfortunately the really good ones cost hell of a lot. So friends I would say if you are not in the 15,000/- Euros league lets say domes and cones are the best compromise.
Deaf.

goolimangala schrieb:

One more addition to the company Myro. In their flagship speaker "Heavens Gate" http://www.myro.de/html/hg-beschreibung.html they are using 3 of the original ESS AMTs for the highs, 2 Seas Excel mid drivers and 4 Eton 12" woofers (same which is used in Cadence Arca) . Would love to hear this speaker one day Jochen

Sir,
What a design;
I have never come across this.
Super.
I too would love to hear this...
Thanks,

deaf schrieb:

Have I heard one? Well I have heard many, unfortunately the really good ones cost hell of a lot. So friends I would say if you are not in the 15,000/- Euros league lets say domes and cones are the best compromise. Deaf.

Sir,

Good Ribbon based loudspeakers @ 15 K Euro - Retail - Suggestion - Please...
Shall be appreciated...

I like the Verity / Crystal / Kaiser / Audiaz etc.
I am not sure if they are lower than 15 K Euro's !

deaf schrieb:

Hi gang, this is getting interesting. Ribbon tweeters love them or loathe them. Firstly let us define a ribbon, Heil and planar magnetic, three different types of drivers. The first two are ribbons that is the driver is also a conductor, the latter a foil as a piston with an etched voice coil. The Selah uses planar magnetic drivers mostly and pure ribbons in few models. The Heil is a folded ribbon that combats two problems. Surface area increase by folding the ribbon for greater power handling and increasing throw. The Heil is based on an accordion principle, it not only moves back and forth but also compresses the air within the folds and throws it more efficiently. Pure ribbons are impedence horrors and hence need transformer coupling, you are now down to how good the transformer is and how good a conductor the foil is. All have advantages and disadvantages. The implementation of the hybrid needs to take into account several issues of polar response and wave launch of two different types of drivers for good results to come through. Have I heard one? Well I have heard many, unfortunately the really good ones cost hell of a lot. So friends I would say if you are not in the 15,000/- Euros league lets say domes and cones are the best compromise. Deaf.

Good synopsys Deaf.

Pure ribbons are impedence horrors and hence need transformer coupling, you are now down to how good the transformer is and how good a conductor the foil is.

yes, this is often the case but not always (as shown by Apogees. Their very top-of-the-line speakers (which I think are 3-4) are xformer based to combat the very low impedance but all others are not xformer based. Further, one of their non-xformer based speaker is an impedance horror but all others are very manageable).

I agree that well implemented ribbons - be it all-ribbons OR as SQ wanted, ribbon tweeter integrated w/ cone drivers - require deep(er) pockets. Good ribbons are very hard to manuf & to keep the impedances practical hence the expensive raw ribbon cost. OTOH, If the impedances are left such that they end up where they naturally do (on the low side) you get kicked in the rear-end by the need to buy a hefty amplifier to drive that ribbon. So, you end up paying the piper one way or the other!

Hi Bhagwan,

I meant 15k upwards for any hybrid like Heils etc, not pure ribbons of which you have named a few.
Adam is the king in the price to performance in hybrids I feel.
XTZ is also very good.
Visaton is value stuff.
Regards
Deaf

square wave said:

I have never heard a ribbon tweeter in my life. What are the benefits ? How do the sound differ from domes ?

Lots of interesting posts and opinions on Ribbon Tweeters...


I personally find them very detailed and very fast, like most have said but, I I think my post is going to muddy the water

I have been fortunate to hear a few ribbon tweeters, and they have always left the same, consistent sonic signature...

The first Ribbon Tweeters that I heard were those on (I think ) a GENESIS Speaker. It was a stand mounted cylindrical speaker cabinet, in glossy ( and LOVELY) Piano black finish. ..

goolimangala maybe you can help me identify the speaker model ?

That was probably about a decade ago.

The treble from the Ribbon tweeters was VERY Open and 'airy'... sweet and seductively (very) different from a dome speaker. I had heard it with Solid State amplification, and I never heard them sound hard or shrill.

Infact, on carefully reviewing the very sweet treble, I would say that the Ribbons could not deliver the Bite and sizzle in the treble.

Typical examples would be the cymbals struck by a wire brush, the Ribbons would provide immense detail and resolution, but the sizzle that is part of the sound, when a wire brush ( as opposed to a nylon brush or a wooden stick) was missing.

Also the Raspiness of a Trumpet, played full throttle, would not have the piercing edge that the live instrument provides.

I must re-emphasis that at no time did the ribbons lack resolution or speed, they just did not deliver the bite.

I have consistently sound the same sonic signature ( to varying degrees ) with ALL the Ribbon tweeters that i have heard.... some of them, Yes in the 15K Euro category too.

To me Ribbon Tweeters present a VERY seductive sound, but that is a (Consistent Ribbon) Coloration. Musical, Yes. Audiophile ... IMHO No

I would urge each one to listen and decide for your selves if Ribbon Tweeters are for you.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

square wave said: I have never heard a ribbon tweeter in my life. What are the benefits ? How do the sound differ from domes ? Lots of interesting posts and opinions on Ribbon Tweeters... I personally find them very detailed and very fast, like most have said but, I I think my post is going to muddy the water I have been fortunate to hear a few ribbon tweeters, and they have always left the same, consistent sonic signature... The first Ribbon Tweeters that I heard were those on (I think ) a GENESIS Speaker. It was a stand mounted cylindrical speaker cabinet, in glossy ( and LOVELY) Piano black finish. .. goolimangala maybe you can help me identify the speaker model ? That was probably about a decade ago. The treble from the Ribbon tweeters was VERY Open and 'airy'... sweet and seductively (very) different from a dome speaker. I had heard it with Solid State amplification, and I never heard them sound hard or shrill. Infact, on carefully reviewing the very sweet treble, I would say that the Ribbons could not deliver the Bite and sizzle in the treble. Typical examples would be the cymbals struck by a wire brush, the Ribbons would provide immense detail and resolution, but the sizzle that is part of the sound, when a wire brush ( as opposed to a nylon brush or a wooden stick) was missing. Also the Raspiness of a Trumpet, played full throttle, would not have the piercing edge that the live instrument provides. I must re-emphasis that at no time did the ribbons lack resolution or speed, they just did not deliver the bite. I have consistently sound the same sonic signature ( to varying degrees ) with ALL the Ribbon tweeters that i have heard.... some of them, Yes in the 15K Euro category too. To me Ribbon Tweeters present a VERY seductive sound, but that is a (Consistent Ribbon) Coloration. Musical, Yes. Audiophile ... IMHO No I would urge each one to listen and decide for your selves if Ribbon Tweeters are for you.

This echoes the comments I have heard from some listeners on audiocircle about well implemented ribbons.

Some listeners feel they lack energy in the highs while some others felt that is how highs should sound like. They feel the extra energy is coloration. Good ribbons just let you hear what is in the recording without adding any shimmer or energy to the highs.

Now I guess it all boils down to the implementation and personal preferences.

http://www.adam-audi...artist-6/description


THE HI FI COMPANY PTE LTD
285 OUTRAM ROAD,
SINGAPORE 169069
Mr. Joel Wong
Tel.: (65) 97594924

so a combination of a super tweeter+ Ribbon should be good ?

Arj schrieb:

so a combination of a super tweeter+ Ribbon should be good ?

Sir,
There is no rule like this;
Ribbons can sound nice & can also go very wrong.
It is all about the implementation...

Each case has to be 'examined' & 'auditioned'
Some sound really nice - the crystal arabesque is a great implementation - on demo in Pune.
Some ribbons will bite your ears off.

thanks Bhagwan.

another discussion going on in A'gon
http://forum.audiogo...24390&openfrom&1&4#1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30461614/Transmission-Audio-M1i-info

Should be an interesting option...

Arj schrieb:

thanks Bhagwan. another discussion going on in A'gon http://forum.audiogo...24390&openfrom&1&4#1

Thanks for the link Arj.
what is really interesting in this thread is all the people who came forward to suggest ribbon based speakers do NOT own one themselves at the present time. Further, at one point or another in their audio career they had heard/owned ribbon-based speakers but had sold them off for some reason or the other. Yet, all these people have a lot of advice to give others re. ribbon-based speakers......
I find this quite incredible!

(And, if I may be permitted to point out - the fellow bought an Apogee. Doesn't look good at all, poor WAF but he admits to the sonics! Yeah, once more the Apogees come thru for yet another user..... ).

Well like I said, none of those Audiogon speakers suggested except for the Nola were in the 15K Euros range. Amp Nut has made it clear, either you like them or you do not. Leaving aside some really exceptional implementations, I would suggest that it is easier to deal with domes and cones than ribbon hybrids.
Look at it this way, no top end commercial brand uses ribbons, they have much bigger sales than the top exotic brands. Simple eg: Wilson,B&W,Focal,Dynaudio,KEF,Revel vs Adam,Selah etc. Get the picture?
Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

Look at it this way, no top end commercial brand uses ribbons,... Deaf.

Hi Deaf,

what about the Genesis 1 speaker system http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g1p2_gallery.html ? Not so long ago one of the top speaker systems ever made.

Otherwise I agree with you that it is easier to deal with domes and cones than ribbon hybrids .

Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

deaf schrieb: Look at it this way, no top end commercial brand uses ribbons,... Deaf. Hi Deaf, what about the Genesis 1 speaker system http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g1p2_gallery.html ? Not so long ago one of the top speaker systems ever made. Otherwise I agree with you that it is easier to deal with domes and cones than ribbon hybrids . Regards, Jochen

Dear Jochen,

I would agree, but the fact that Genesis is slipped away from that position while the others have gone from strength to strength only proves what I say.
Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: deaf schrieb: Look at it this way, no top end commercial brand uses ribbons,... Deaf. Hi Deaf, what about the Genesis 1 speaker system http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g1p2_gallery.html ? Not so long ago one of the top speaker systems ever made. Otherwise I agree with you that it is easier to deal with domes and cones than ribbon hybrids . Regards, Jochen Dear Jochen, I would agree, but the fact that Genesis is slipped away from that position while the others have gone from strength to strength only proves what I say. Deaf.

I said also "not so long ago". Though I have never heard this (Genesis) speaker and other so called top end systems I can imagine that those newer speakers would not play so much better just because not many break-through developments have taken place in loudspeaker designs since then.

Regards,
Jochen

i can talk of only 2 speakers 1. SALK and 2. Cadence...
I actually did not miss the Cadence when I moved since the crisp and revealing nature was still there in the Ribbons though this was very "in your face" in the Cadence...

The acoustic strings used to be played around your ear while the rest of the music was where it is supposed to be...???

The implementation with SALKs has been smooth and they are very good and i did not feel the brittle nature of soundstage I felt with Cadence.... When I swept my hand over my face I could hear the sound cutting off from ear to ear as the hand passed by.. my biggest disappointment with ES speakers and it changed my nature as a listener as well... Made me sit like a Mummy in front of them speakers....

I do have a TacT with the SALKs and I can further tailor the sound so may be I am not supposed to be here....

Regards

HP

Guys,

I'm just reading the book QUAD The Closest Aproach by Ken Kessler. Did you know that Peter Walker's first domestic speaker was a really good looking Corner Ribbon Speaker? Here is a quote of what Peter Walker said about this speaker: "It had a big woofer for bass and a ribbon for highs. Gave a lot of boom and sssss, you know, sounded hi-fi, but didn't sound very natural. Still, it gave the people what they wanted."


Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

Guys, I'm just reading the book QUAD The Closest Aproach by Ken Kessler. Did you know that Peter Walker's first domestic speaker was a really good looking Corner Ribbon Speaker? Here is a quote of what Peter Walker said about this speaker: "It had a big woofer for bass and a ribbon for highs. Gave a lot of boom and sssss, you know, sounded hi-fi, but didn't sound very natural. Still, it gave the people what they wanted." Jochen

Sad part, Jochen, is that 40+ years later, people still want that boom & sssss.
(only now the boxes look prettier so that the wives can also particpate in the boom & sssss).

bombaywalla schrieb:

Sad part, Jochen, is that 40+ years later, people still want that boom & sssss. (only now the boxes look prettier so that the wives can also particpate in the boom & sssss).

Hi BW,

That's it.
But I find the Corner ribbon not so bad looking.

goolimangala schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: Sad part, Jochen, is that 40+ years later, people still want that boom & sssss. (only now the boxes look prettier so that the wives can also particpate in the boom & sssss). Hi BW, That's it. But I find the Corner ribbon not so bad looking.

Ooops, upload of the picture didn't work. Ok, here is a link to the picture: http://blog.stereophile.com/hifinews2006/092406corner/

goolimangala schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: bombaywalla schrieb: Sad part, Jochen, is that 40+ years later, people still want that boom & sssss. (only now the boxes look prettier so that the wives can also particpate in the boom & sssss). Hi BW, That's it. But I find the Corner ribbon not so bad looking. Ooops, upload of the picture didn't work. Ok, here is a link to the picture: http://blog.stereophile.com/hifinews2006/092406corner/

I agree. the wood-working of the cabinet looks nice. The actual face of the speaker could be improved today to look much nicer & maybe perform better too.....

bombaywalla schrieb:

Arj schrieb: thanks Bhagwan. another discussion going on in A'gon http://forum.audiogo...24390&openfrom&1&4#1 Thanks for the link Arj. what is really interesting in this thread is all the people who came forward to suggest ribbon based speakers do NOT own one themselves at the present time. Further, at one point or another in their audio career they had heard/owned ribbon-based speakers but had sold them off for some reason or the other. Yet, all these people have a lot of advice to give others re. ribbon-based speakers...... I find this quite incredible! (And, if I may be permitted to point out - the fellow bought an Apogee. Doesn't look good at all, poor WAF but he admits to the sonics! Yeah, once more the Apogees come thru for yet another user..... ).

I guess I fit in this category;
I used to own & still have 1 pair with me.
The Sun Union Audio - Noble Expect I sold.
The Resurrection, I still have.

The 1st was a good speaker but it got out performed - so it had to go.
The 2nd is still a 'tour de force' in my books.
I just do not have the 'space' for it @ home.

I use a 'dynamic' speaker - not for any other reason, but simply that I have not come across another speaker of that size that plays better than it ! simple. If I find any other stand mount [hear or audition] in the world that plays better than my T.A.D. I shall change it - instantly - all be it with a very sad heart. I truly love my current speaker !

herculepirate schrieb:

i can talk of only 2 speakers 1. SALK and 2. Cadence... I actually did not miss the Cadence when I moved since the crisp and revealing nature was still there in the Ribbons though this was very "in your face" in the Cadence... The acoustic strings used to be played around your ear while the rest of the music was where it is supposed to be...??? The implementation with SALKs has been smooth and they are very good and i did not feel the brittle nature of soundstage I felt with Cadence.... When I swept my hand over my face I could hear the sound cutting off from ear to ear as the hand passed by.. my biggest disappointment with ES speakers and it changed my nature as a listener as well... Made me sit like a Mummy in front of them speakers.... I do have a TacT with the SALKs and I can further tailor the sound so may be I am not supposed to be here.... Regards HP

Hi HP
Interesting, which Cadence did you have?
I only like the Amaya and the original ARCA(only 4 pairs made).I must say if you use the smaller guys you are probably correct.
The two I mentioned were however beautiful music playback devices. I have mastered their setup to a degree quite unmatched by anyone I have met. If done correctly the two can be real fun. Do they come close to newer SOTA speakers? Not by a mile. Are they fun if correctly setup? You bet. Sure the Salk and many speakers I sell beat them, but hey I just got a pair of refoiled ES for 60k.
Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

Hi HP Interesting, which Cadence did you have? I only like the Amaya and the original ARCA(only 4 pairs made).I must say if you use the smaller guys you are probably correct. The two I mentioned were however beautiful music playback devices. I have mastered their setup to a degree quite unmatched by anyone I have met. If done correctly the two can be real fun. Do they come close to newer SOTA speakers? Not by a mile. Are they fun if correctly setup? You bet. Sure the Salk and many speakers I sell beat them, but hey I just got a pair of refoiled ES for 60k. Deaf.

Hi Deaf,
do shed some light on the underlined portion. Not sure that I fully understand.
According to me if one is having fun w/ the speaker setup then one is getting the essence of the music (the PRaT, soundstage width, height, bass, high freq extension, etc) then nothing more is needed. So, I'm not sure why such a setup would not be considered SOTA??
What, according to you, is a SOTA speaker?? A speaker made in the year 2010 with the year 2010 materials?
In what way do other speakers in your product portfolio beat the Cadence ARCA & Amaya?? Curious minds want to know.
Thanks.

Hi Deaf,

It was the Amaya and the VA1 at the time...


Regards

HP

what way do other speakers in your product portfolio beat the Cadence ARCA & Amaya?? Curious minds want to know.

KK is SOTA !
http://www.stereotimes.com/munich2009j.shtml
http://www.stereotimes.com/munich2010f.shtml

According to me if one is having fun w/ the speaker setup then one is getting the essence of the music (the PRaT, soundstage width, height, bass, high freq extension, etc) then nothing more is needed. So, I'm not sure why such a setup would not be considered SOTA??

There may be lots of speakers that I may have fun with - however they are not SOTA !
I may like 'coloured' sound & a particular set up may do that for me - not necessary that it becomes SOTA.
Prime Example is Sonus Faber.
Very coloured sound - great musically - but not SOTA for sure.
Would I buy the Stradivari [if I had the place] ? Sure - I love the tone - but it is NOT SOTA for sure....

The Marten Momento is SOTA
The RT [some of the models] are SOTA

I could go on - it needs to be 'experienced'
Current flavour of the month [year actually] is Tidal. These are SOTA products.

SQ - SQ - SQ that is all it is about - an 'appropriate' balance - personal - for each his own....

In what way do other speakers in your product portfolio beat the Cadence ARCA & Amaya

The Cadence Speakers were super a decade back.
They were great VFM & the sound was nice too.
Unfortunately, many brands have moved on & Cadence has not moved an inch - so times have caught up.

Even the new Martin Logan's are better than the Cadence. Only thing is that Cadence being made in India is cheaper & hence still calls the shots. The Export Price of ML is far far lower than Cadence's prices & the fit + finish is [has to be be seen] better too.
This is a 'direct' comparison.
However, there are several speakers there that will beat the pants out of the Cadence Speakers.
In fact their own speaker - Crystal Arabesque will kill it [demo is possible in Pune] ! Go & listen for your self & decide...

I am awaiting their next REFOILING price increase... Happens every 3 years....
Amazing ????...
Thats when I decided to get Rid of them...

Regards

HP

herculepirate schrieb:

I am awaiting their next REFOILING price increase... Happens every 3 years.... Amazing ????... Thats when I decided to get Rid of them... Regards HP

You are so lucky;
The Arca that I listen to - on a regular basis - decides to stop working every monsoon !!
So you get off easy - once every 3 years...

But, on a serious note - all Planner / Ribbons / ES panels needs a [some] 'maintainence' check on a periodic basis.