A poor mans source

Magma79 schrieb:

though i would like a PS audio Ultralink Stello dacor a LAvry or benchmark DAC1 i see that even used pieces are unfortunately out of budget

Stello - all the Way !!

Save & buy that DAC !! Please...

bhagwan
the stello is stellar
i really hope i come across a used piece sometime.
but they are hard to find and go at good premiums

The dacmagic, I didn't get very good report from my brother....he sold it in a hurry. The highs were just too squeaky and grainy.

Fyi

thanks manek
ive read reviews that confirm what you say too

then that leaves me with only the
V dac (300$)
keces 131 ( no usb)- 300$
and the Valab NOS - 200$
may be the I basso D10 for 300$
or the PICO DAC ,but thats usb only


anyone have any experience with them
please advice

unless i come across a used Stello or PS audio Ultralink

Also i wanted to ask
i have a deal on a PS Audio Ultralink ( i think the 1993 edition) it used to reatil for 1995$ back then
the current generaton PS audio Digital Link is in its Mk3 version and retails for about 700$
do you guys have any idea how come?

is the Ultralink different from the Digital LInk 3 ?

also do you think its wise to consider the Ulralink at 300$ . it probably is 13-14yrs old

Magma79 schrieb:

thanks manek also do you think its wise to consider the Ulralink at 300$ . it probably is 13-14yrs old

Never.

Digital Gear should never be purchased 'old' !
1 to 2 years is OK, not older....

I tend to agree with bhagwan theoretically......

Too many advances in d to a and a to d technology.

But then take the case of dac magic, with all the mordern chips at their call, they couldn't get the top end right....so I would tend to go 2-4 yrs. Post that its not worth while.

Manek

Considering your amp and spkrs I would suggest going in for a good CDP. A NAD player should complete the setup perfectly (NAD-PSB are a pair anyways). You could think of a transport + DAC at a later point in time ( the upgreade bug - you can run but you can't hide )

You could also try the Headroom's Micro DAC...I've read some good reviews about it...costs abt $333 at headphone.com...other VFM DAC is scott-nixon

Considered the Buffalo from www.twistedpearaudio.com ?

Im told a forum member in Mumbai had one to sell, (Home audition was available) at close to cost, since he was upgrading to the later version of the same.

On the other hand, IMHO you will get better sound from a well selected CD player ( particularly if you get a good Pre-Owned one, about a year old ) at any budget upto Rs 100K, rather than a separate Spinner + DAC for the same money. Also, HDD playback at that price point just does not cut it... IMHO Ofcourse !
( I have explored that path... )

Magma, i would second Amp nuts advice. integerating a DAC and a transport is not really cost efffective at the sub USD300...unless you are keen on an HDD based transport. either way you need to biudget around USD100 for a Good digital cable.

if you are keen on a chinese Dac the ZhaoLu would perhaps be a good idea..
http://www.diykits.com.hk/Zhaolu%20D2.5.htm

Buffalo audio, Beresford as well as Scot Nixon are othergreat Value for money options

Musical Fidelity products are not really VFM....

thanks for the inputs

manek,bhagwan69 - thanks for the heads up, its only that 300 $ for the ultralink looked to juicy.
will not consider the 15yr old pc now

soulforged,arj
have you heard the scott nixon chibbi?

amp nut and arj
the nad 541 sounds excellent. you guys are probably right that at that budget i might as well get a good CDP
however i am leaning toward the HDD based transport siince i have a lot of flac and also i rarely find myself listening to the entire album hence i find the HDD more convinient to switch songs etc

also guys pplease do note here that 300$ does not neccesarily i mean i have to get something new
i agree that in that budget there are not many good dacs.

but

as i said earlier something like a MSB link 3 with full nelson upgrade and p1000 power base can be had for 300$ used
and so is a used
MHDT labs Paradisea+ USB

P.S do you know of any members in the used market having a CDP for sale that i can consider?

hi Magma,
I have not heard the scott Nixon..but one member Savyasaachi was selling his here
http://www.hifi-foru...um_id=120&thread=312

you could PM him if it is still available..if so it is an excellent buy

the 541 is a very good entry level choice..but buying it used means you should know the piece well enough.. transports are the most easily impacted by wear and tear.

Magma

You may get a 542 nad at a decent rate since new models are in.

Btw, would you like to go in for a cdp which allows you to connect external digital source and use the built in dacs of the cdp ? That should let you have your cake and eat it to no ? Quad cdp 99 is one these beasts. A good used piece would do the trick?

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Magma You may get a 542 nad at a decent rate since new models are in. Btw, would you like to go in for a cdp which allows you to connect external digital source and use the built in dacs of the cdp ? That should let you have your cake and eat it to no ? Quad cdp 99 is one these beasts. A good used piece would do the trick? Manek

^^ excellent advice sir
alas such CDPs are quite expensive for me even in the used market na?
remeber 15-16k INR ( i dont think i can trust getting a used CDP from audiogon!)

that NAD 542 is really illusive.

i think if i do come across such CDP's i should grab them
otherwise
maybe a peter daniel or a scot nixon will have to do
P.S i think that Scot nixon is on sale(as pointed by Arj) from one of our members here! in my budget too shipped from UK
i think savvaysacchi is still wanting to sell his?

now only if i could be sure that this Scott nixon on sale would def be better than my other choices
namely the KECES 131,V DAC and the VALAB
also unfortunately the scot noxon has no SPDIF! major let down. cant think of connecting another transport other than a PC

anyone here head of the MSB link 3 DAC with teh P1000 powerblock?

Not heard the chibi but one of the ufo variants...the sound was surprisingly clean...saw one on sale at audiogon some time ago...

Get the Xonar STX. It is positively a steal for the money. I think if you build one on your own, the cost of parts in that card would probably be more than what Asus is charging for it. It is based on a Burr Brown PCM1792A (BB's top of the line DAC) with dual NJM2114Ds for I/V and an LM4562 as the line driver (All replaceable if user intends to). All caps are Nichicon Gold other than the power regulation ones which are Sanyo Oscons.

This is nearly top of the line stuff - parts not found in a Rs 100k+ cd players, let alone an entry level NAD/Marantz that we are discussing here. The outputs are good quality Neutrik gold plated RCAs. Plus it has a 12V/5V molex input thru which you can feed it clean power thru a custom built linear PSU and an EMI shield on the entire card to avoid interference from other parts in the computer. In addition to all this, it has a BB TPA6120 headphone amp onboard that can easily drive an HD650/AKG701 extremely well.

The first time I saw the specs, I thought it would easily be a 600-800$ card. My jaw dropped when I came to know that its selling in India for a mere 8000 rupees. I think I picked up the first piece that landed in India. The following are my listening impressions

I've three sources - an EMU 1212M, the Xonar and a Peter Daniel Audio Zone DAC1. The last one is a DAC I chose after listening to quite a few - its a Philips TDA1543 based design with a passive resistor output stage and a burr brown line driver for impedance matching. Its a nearly identical clone of the 47labs Progression DAC.

I've tried comparing these three on my setup - The DAC is the best in overall involvement. However the Xonar is no slouch - it comes embarrassingly close especially when using it in Linux. It actually has a wee bit more detail than the DAC but is a bit rough around the edges and doesn't have the magical mid range of a well designed NOS DAC. However it completely outclasses the EMU 1212M's analog out. The latter sounds cold, sterile and boring to listen to after the Xonar and lacks significantly in detail as well.

The Xonar STX is a rare device that measures well (124dB SNR in real world tests with a completely flat response to 80kHz - Asus supplies the test results as a small flyer in the package), sounds absolutely fantastic and costs peanuts.

Also here's an open challenge - I believe there's no mass market cd player under 40 grand which can touch this card. Anyone who believes otherwise is most welcome to come over to my place and compare it.

PS: I have no relationship with Asus other than the fact that I own this card and use it in my bedroom audio system.

Hope this helps!

wow
ROC now youve really stirred the pot huh?

i thought about ( and actaully am still thinking about the Xonar Essence)

i wanted to ask
dont you find the sound from Scards a bit cold and harsh compared to your DAcs

i havent heard something like the essence but i find the regular soundcards quite harsh
im hopeful the Asus must not be like that

Also in an XP system what volume control setting are you using on the Player( eg Foobar) and on the windows mixer default ?

when using the RCA's
Soundcard is outputting analogue sound so the windows default volume control must be in play na?
or is it not?

Magma79 schrieb:

wow ROC now youve really stirred the pot huh? i thought about ( and actaully am still thinking about the Xonar Essence) i wanted to ask dont you find the sound from Scards a bit cold and harsh compared to your DAcs i havent heard something like the essence but i find the regular soundcards quite harsh im hopeful the Asus must not be like that Also in an XP system what volume control setting are you using on the Player( eg Foobar) and on the windows mixer default ? when using the RCA's Soundcard is outputting analogue sound so the windows default volume control must be in play na? or is it not?

I find the EMU to be thin and cold but the Essence STX is definitely not so. The sound is actually on the warmer side of neutral. I do not use windows volume control - I just keep it at default and use my amp's volume control.

Forget the Chinese DACs btw. They are just okay - nothing great. Have tried the Zhaolu, Citypulse and Valab. All are mediocre compared to the Essence.

Also I know someone who's running a Be718 with a Leben CS600 off the Xonar and is utterly happy with the result.

Cheers!

reignofchaos schrieb:

Also I know someone who's running a Be718 with a Leben CS600 off the Xonar and is utterly happy with the result. Cheers!

ROC, thats saying something ..that good ?
Any idea how its digital out is ?

arj

that digital op is super
you can confirm on head fi

but in a way thats what surprises me at times
these guys buying an Asus Xonar (such an exp card with a decent DAC) and still they just use its digi out to feed a DAC ( yes of course the DACs are also good like the stello and benchmark)
but what a way to go Asus to a benchmark!

anyway enough on that
ROC - you say youve heard a VALAB and a Citypulse?
wow rarely do i find indians whove got experience in DAC's

now if the Xonar does better the above dacs i shouldnt evenconsider these 300$ dacs now should i ?

btw did you hear the dac on your system or another one?
what was the rig?

ROC and all
this is what i mean by the volume controls

now there is a volume control on your music player say for eg Foobar as shown in the pic

There is also the main volume control of windows that is controlled from the taskbar as shown in the next pic

now when you take a digital out from your MOBO you can safely keep the foobar volume control to 100% and control the volume from your amp completely
in this case since a digital signal is being outputted the windows volume conrol is bypassed it has no meaning i.e it doesnt affect/amplify the signal

however when you take analogue out from the SC (like the headphone out)the windows volume control also comes also into play
my question is that when you take the RCA out from the Xonar
is this volume control of windows bypassed ( i dont think it is )
Does this windows volume control change your sigmnal when you change it ( i.e amplify the signal )
if so what is the recommended setting?

pics
foobar volume
http://s4b.directupload.net/file/d/1849/87xnjxdv_jpg.htm

windows volume
http://s6.directupload.net/file/d/1849/lqqqlcs3_jpg.htm

Hi Magma,
The chinese DAC that I said I have heard and liked was the "Citypulse". I heard it at ROC place a number of times and I liked it. If ROC says the Asus is better...you can blindly buy the Asus.

i would suggest trying to get a parasound DAC-1100, DAC1500 or ideally the DAC-1600.

I briefly had the Parasound PD/D1500 which I got for 90$. It sounded way too good for the price. I am expecting further improvements with the DAC-1100HD that i just bought.
I had the ESi Juli@ and it had a very decent analog section too. I preferred the Scott Nixon over it but the Juli@ was mainly for a digital transport purpose. However now am without that too as i found my onboard digital out to be pretty decent.

Of course there are lots of mods already on the pipeline for the Parasound DAC-1100 that am getting.The internals on the parasound DAC-1100.

Also try and see if you can get a Sonic Frontiers Assemblage 2.0, 2.6 or the 3.0

Arj schrieb:

reignofchaos schrieb: Also I know someone who's running a Be718 with a Leben CS600 off the Xonar and is utterly happy with the result. Cheers! ROC, thats saying something ..that good ? Any idea how its digital out is ?

The digital out is so - so for stereo applications. They didn't put much thought into it. Its not transformer coupled like the better cards out there the Juli@ and EMU. The card's claim to fame is the headphone out and the analog out.

@magma: The windows volume control is at 100% and is bypassed if you use ASIO. Foobar volume control is at 100% too and I've never tinkered with it. My real volume control is the volume control pot of Musical Fidelity A1.

I had the original citypulse for a couple of years. It served me well. Had modified the clock and PSU of that DAC before I sold it to someone. It was a decent DAC for its price but the Xonar STX is on another level. If you are keen, you can replace the opamps with discrete "op-amps" from Burson. This is a discrete circuit that fits into a normal 8pin opamp socket.

Also must point out that the sound quality in Linux with ALSA drivers is way way better than official drivers in Windows with ASIO enabled. Hope this helps.

savysacchi
what internals are those of
they look jicy

are those of the parasound or the Assemblage?

That's the parasound DAC-1100 HD. It uses the CS8412 receiver, PMD100 filter and PCM63J DACs. I will be replacing the I/V opamps with the THS4031 opamp, buffers with AD797s and the output filter opamp with AD8599. Ceramic NPO and silver mica caps for decoupling, high speed SOIC to DIP adapters (cost 7$ each) for the THS chip.

The Sonic Frontiers Assemblage DACs are really cool too. I didn't think opamps could sound as good in the output stage of a DAC until I heard a modded assemblage DAC2.6 at CanJam last month.
The DAC1100 was the mid level DAC from parasound back in the 90s..Still they used to retail for about 1000$ then. By no means a cheap price for a DAC.

Something about well implemented R-2R ladder DAcs such as the PCM63 and PCM1704..they can sound amazing when done properly.

You should also consider the Pico DAC. It sounds really good for the price. Of course no coaxial or optical on it.

savysacchi
i may be wrong but i think the Assemblage and PAra are almost twice and thrice my budget correct/?

also ive never seen a used pc in the market.

if i dont get a used Stello or PS audio or a
used Peter Daniels (anyone got it ? )

im leaning toward a
used MSB link
Scott Nixon
or a KECES131

if i dont go the Xonar route that is

suggestions on the above would be lovely help

I just bought a Scott Nixon DAC. For the price I couldn't resist.
It really is a unique DAC.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69602.0

There is an MSB link DAC3 with mdwright mods to it on sale for about 235 on the same forum. Though without knowing what exactly are the internals it is very hard to sayas there are many versions of this DAC.

Never heard the Keces.

The assemblage can run you about 300-500$ and parasound can be had for about 200-400 depending on model and how long and hard you are willing to look for it.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I just bought a Scott Nixon DAC. For the price I couldn't resist. It really is a unique DAC. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69602.0 .

i thought you were selling the scott nixon?
i read another thread where you had put it on sale then withdrwan it and then it was back for grabs again?

Hey there..I did actually sell mine a few months ago..but this was just too good to pass up for the price...I really did enjoy the sound of the USB Chibi...enjoyable is the only way to put it..more so than a Bel Canto DAC2 which sells for 750 used.

Just received my Parasound DAC-1100 HD.

IT beats the pants out of the Scott Nixon. Amazing details..and I haven't even modded it yet.

I also bought a Sonic Frontiers Assemblage DAC 2.0 for 130$ shipped.

Another amp that is supposed to be really good. This also uses the PMD100 digital filter but uses the PCM1702 instead of the PCM63. IT still is a very good DAC chip. R-2R ladder config and not the delta sigma crap.

how much did you get the parasound for?

i was thinking of a peter daniel kit/ ?

I haven't heard the Peter Daniel DAC. But if you like the NOS sound then i am betting you won't be disappointed. The natural roll off is alluring but you lose the details that better newer DAC chips are capcable of. Also the passive I/V solution is not something that I like anymore.

The parasound cost me 290$ shipped.

Magma79 schrieb:

how much did you get the parasound for? i was thinking of a peter daniel kit/ ?

I use the same though mine has much better parts than what he sells as the kit and came assembled from him. NOS dacs are totally to your taste. If you are a sucker for detail, this is not for you. However if you like natural tonality and a relaxed sound, its an unbelievable value for money DAC.

As I said, depending upon which side of the camp you are, you'd either love it or hate it :-).

reignofchaos schrieb:

NOS dacs are totally to your taste. If you are a sucker for detail, this is not for you. However if you like natural tonality and a relaxed sound, its an unbelievable value for money DAC. As I said, depending upon which side of the camp you are, you'd either love it or hate it :-).

Sir Ji, IMO its an exaggerated statement!!!
Peter Daniel (PD) DAC offers all the detail that you would get from a one box CDP costing around the same. So there is nothing to complain in that regards. I do agree that once you go higher-end..say a DAC costing $2k+ you would expect more details without any compromise on tonality.

But at the price PD dacs are offered you get all the "expected" details plus an amazingly natural tonality....no brainer I say (doesnt matter which camp you belong to) :hail.

Abhi,

The Peter Daniel DAC is very similar in design and concept when compared to the Scott Nixon DAC.

Both are based on the TDA1543 chip with passive I/V and un-buffered output.

Now you know why I picked the Scott Nixon over the Bel Canto DAC2 almost 2 years ago.

However, Recently I have been exposed to waay too many high end sources (Spectral SDR-2000 Pro, Assemblage DAC2.6, Sonic Frontiers Trans DAC, Electrocompaniet ECD-1, Neko D100, Lavry DA11, Pico DAC, Buffalo 32s, Buffalo DAC, Opus DAC, Audio GD Ref1 and Parasound DAC-1100, 1600, PD/D1500).

I must say I have become a fan of well designed opamp based I/V and buffer stages.

Very few of the discrete I/V DACs seem to do good when it comes down to sound quality.

The best of the DACs I have heard so far have been the Spectral SDR-2000 pro, a very heavily modded Assemblage DAC2.6 and Parasound DAC1600..again very heavily modded (K grade chips, high quality opamps adequately decoupled and bypassed using NPO ceramic caps, PPS caps), old electrolytic caps replaced.
To me when I compared the Scott Nixon with the upgraded Power supply to the Parasound DAC-1100(stock), the Parasound surpassed the Scott Nixon in every area.

I have enormous respect for Peter Daniel though. His designs are impeccable. I actually read up on one of his potentiometer comparisons a few weeks back after I heard a spud tube amp with the PEC carbon pot. It was like magic. I have two of those on the way.
Right now am listening to my Koss ESP950 using the DAC-1100 and I just can't seem to take my headphones off.

I received my Assemblage DAC 2.0 which shows potential enough to surpass the DAC-1100. I love the small form factor of my Assemblage as well. I plan to bring it with me to India along with some of my headphones and CTH amp.

I actually read up on one of his potentiometer comparisons a few weeks back after I heard a spud tube amp with the PEC carbon pot. It was like magic. I have two of those on the way.

I agree... Pots can make a HUGE diff to the sound. Infact the Volume countrol is probably THE weakest link in most Pre-amps.

I have see that a small modification, by adding a Single High Quality Resistor, makes a worthwhile improvement in the sound quality.


Alternate Volume Control Arrangement

Good Potentiometers for the Volume control are difficult to obtain, and EXPENSIVE !

Do try the mod above. Would love to have yr feedback.

amp_nut sir,

If you are talking about a shunt mod which it looks very much like it..yep.. I have it in my Compact tube hybrid on the ALPS RK27, it really transforms the ALPS pot.

hmm

PD has quite a fan following
his amps are no slouchs either

i am seriously considering the dac
yes now i think ill have some eyes open for the parasound too considering savvyasacchis views

its only that his dac costs 350$ that too only the kit. if i want a usb option another 200$!
im sure i can get a used stello or PS audio for 550-600$!

currently im making do with a 1.7Ghz P4 PC loaded with CMP and Cplay

i was thinking either
buy an emu SC and give the digital OP to the above mentioned dacs
or just finish it by buying a Asus Xonar essence ST ( PCI version) and skip the dac totally

hmm confused confused!

hello all
thaks for all inputs
i have provsionally ordered a peter daniel dac (usb) to connect with my laptop

i have another query for another setup i would like some help with
i have planned to use a desktop PC as source using CMP and CPlay or Foobar with Asio depending on convinience

i am looking for a good soundcard for 2.0 channel audio
the soundcard is to be connected to a NAD 325 BEE amp

i would love to have the Asus Xonar Essence ST ( PCI version)
however im unable to procure it

i have come across the following other PCI cards in my budget
MAudio Audiophile 2496
Emu 0404
ESI Juli@

please advice

requirements : must be PCI not PCI express.
and at least one SPDIF OP would be preferred
also prefer the card to work on ASIO4ALL drivers

looking forwad to your help

ESI JUli@ is good ..I am actually looking at the RME 9652 to use as a transport now for my system.

Btw, I did a DAC comparison between the Citypulse DAC 2.03SE with 3000$ worth of mods from Reference AUdio mods against my modded Assemblage DAC 2.0... The Assemblage edged out the Citypulse

I am giving up on Computer audio for the time being
After the trends UD10, i tried the M-Audio Firewire Solo so that i use firewire as the audio output and convert it to SPDIF. It still cannot beat the classe cdm based12.4 transport.
OTOH i recently bought a CDM Pro2 based transport and that is far far superior even with CDRs made from downloaded FLACs.

The transport is smoother and has much more soul in the music than the HDD transport. although in terms of the details i cannot differentitate between the two. this is with a dedicated laptop running both Foobar and C-play running as stripped down version of Windws XP with ASIO output.

From the little reading i did the M-Audio driver are C$@P. i guess ESi is safer.
Sachi,the RME seems to be rated very high..but for a little more is not the Lynx a better and more long term option ?

Arj said:

I am giving up on Computer audio for the time being

Welcome to the club ...

anyone know whether i can get me a Juli in mumbai?or for that matter in India
or will i have to talk to uncle SAM

P.S im looking at 4 cards currently
the Emu 1212 ( reviews say its the best of the lot for analogue 2 channel out but the driver can be a pain in the bum)
The echo mia midi
the ESI Juli@
the M audio Audiphile 192

would apprecitae which way to turn ( pure two channel analogue output)
or what would be order of prefernce

I think Bhagwan69 has a good audio card to sell. PM him...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Arj said: I am giving up on Computer audio for the time being Welcome to the club ... ;)

Amp_Nut I still believe in the concept and potential (am sure so do you) , but I guess a lot more research/ understanding on this needs to be done before we can call it truly high end.
Of course the Weiss/Empirical/Wavelength products are all there but are too highly priced and at a premium ...may be due to the small market . BUT a converter in the digital domain Should Not be so expensive !

anyone knows what are the good CDR media available in india for audio grade ? May need more than 200 of them

Moser bayer can be avoided.

Samsung had decent stuff(gold). Sony will be too.

Buy any media that you can't see thru when you put it aagainst the light :-) ampnut and I had the most transparent experience with moser.

Manek

Thanks manek.. a dark colour (Ideally Green )on the reading side and a opaque label on the other byt a good brand should i guess do the trick. i tried with Sony yesterday. the results were not at all bad and was wondering if i should pilot thjis with any ohter disk befoer a large scale manufacture

Am seriously considering picking up the REga P25 table for 695$ locally that just became available.cherry finish too..

Recent purchases..

A pair of Dayton BR-1s locally for 70$. Kit sells for 160$..they sound fantastic ..brilliant speakers really.

Bought a rack today for 22$ from the local supermarket..i think it does the job well

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4554/para002.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9646/para001.jpg

Arj schrieb:

anyone knows what are the good CDR media available in india for audio grade ? May need more than 200 of them :.

Hi Arj,

You may consider - http://www.hhb.co.uk/

I think they do have a distributor based in Mumbai.

I've used their cdrs & cddars . Found them better than most other cdrs available in India (sony, hp, samsung, moser).

Regards
SNV