New stereo ideas

Dear Deaf,

Priorities are too many, for example I am playing Keith Jarret Sun Bear Concert LP now, needs the piano more fleshed out. If I put on the newly released Best of Dire straits and MK a bit more of dynamic drive may convey the emotion better.

Hope you understand my plight, but still I'll give it a try

Realism - tonal accuracy and the right kind of dynamics ie not exagerated or subdued (just never come in terms with the so called musical sounding gear that makes everything sound the same)

Sound stage - at least make you feel that the recording was done in a music hall not in a bathroom ( if it was actually recorded in a hall) A proprely recorded piano shouldnt wander all over the place, if close miked the low to high note should shift within the width.

The room accustics - more than freq responce it is the primary and secondary reflection of the walls, floor and ceiling smears the imaging.

Ach, the other thread that Deaf talked about has been started!!

Man, this is like handing you the crown jewels that took years to find out!!

I'll to make some useful contribution(s):-
(1) Room acoustics (as already mentioned by Anil). RadioShack SPL meter + ETF/Cara room measurement software to measure the listening room. Then, either treat the room suitably for the anomalies or use a Behringer DQEX or a Rives Audio PARC process or a TacT, etc.
Treat room for 1st reflections, floor reflections, ceiling reflections (if possible).
(2) Good setup. By this I mean one needs to reduce or eliminate vibration within the audio equipment, reduce or eliminate the influence of air-borne & rack-borne vibrations to the equipment i.e. isolation of audio gear. This also includes reduction or elimination of rack vibrations.
I prefer light-weight-rigid over heavy-damped as the latter, IMHO, has a low resonant freq that could interfer w/ the bass response.
Further, solid flooring vs. suspended flooring is better. Similarly, solid walls are also better esp if one is going to set up a full range system &/or sub-woofer than can flex the walls.
I've also seen that listening rooms that have suspended sub-flooring within the solid flooring also sound excellent. It's basically an isolated floor.
(3) Clean AC power - as clean as you can get it. Dedicated higher current lines, isolation xformer, upgraded outlets, etc.
(4) RF shielding in the room &/or live in an area that is low in RF radiation. Tough in India but somewhat easier in the West.
I've found that having RF shielding applied to the cables is avoidable - closes in the sound too much.

I feel that if one does the above, then the stage is set for the audio gear to give its best. Otherwise, you can buy the most expensive, best sounding gear & it'll perform well below par in the room.
In some respects hi-performance audio playback is a little like Indian cooking - it takes very long for the prep work & the cooking time is usually much shorter

FWIW, my 2 cents (before taxes).

For me primarily a stereo or even HT setup should be warm/mellow and should not have "in my face" or "forward" kind of presentation. Since I listen to jazz and a lot of swing...bass timing is important.
If these characteristics are not present,whatever the cost and howsoever accurate the system may be made out to be, its a no go for me.

Everything else is secondary.

Manek.

To me its the presentation and involvement that matters. Whats the use of an accurate body with out a soul in it..

I do not think there exists any system which is accurate in the truest sense of the word. It is only “more” accurate as you go up the ladder. Even this accuracy factor is often colored by voicing and fine-tuning practices followed by different manufacturers. So I guess we need to find a system which does maximum justice to the type of music you listen to. I like it laidback with a wide soundstage with a sense of space between instruments and performers. I look for “body” for the instruments. It needs to sound as analogue / natural as possible. I listen to lot of jazz, swing, blues, vocals etc..so bass timing and detail in the bass region is important. Clean vocals/mids and analogue sounding highs are important. Overall presentation has to be very involving. Turn the system on and I need to forget the system and get involved with the music. I could go on if we have to go into each individual component but this is a concise summery.

I do not think there exists any system which is accurate in the truest sense of the word. It is only “more” accurate as you go up the ladder. Even this accuracy factor is often colored by voicing and fine-tuning practices followed by different manufacturers. So I guess we need to find a system which does maximum justice to the type of music you listen to. I like it laidback with a wide soundstage with a sense of space between instruments and performers. I look for “body” for the instruments. It needs to sound as analogue / natural as possible. I listen to lot of jazz, swing, blues, vocals etc..so bass timing and detail in the bass region is important. Clean vocals/mids and analogue sounding highs are important. Overall presentation has to be very involving. Turn the system on and I need to forget the system and get involved with the music. I could go on if we have to go into each individual component but this is a concise summery.

There you ask for everything which qualifies as a best setup.. . I like openness, good low end, vocals natural and not too overpowering and I hate to have shrill highs

Three dimensional sound,may sacrifice a little bit of accuracy for warmer sound(which you will have to for getting warmer sound!!).But three dimensional sound at all costs!!Must feel like you are listening to live music.
My two cents...

Do continue chaps, this is all very interesting.
Regards Deaf.

Manek schrieb:

For me primarily a stereo or even HT setup should be warm/mellow and should not have "in my face" or "forward" kind of presentation. Since I listen to jazz and a lot of swing...bass timing is important. If these characteristics are not present,whatever the cost and howsoever accurate the system may be made out to be, its a no go for me. Everything else is secondary. Manek.

I double that, if the setup isn't inviting then I dont care who made it how much it costs it aint making me happy.

I love color

Satyam.

Recently I have gone through some huge concept changes as to the role of different aspects required in stereo playback.
One of the main changes is that, I prefer a completely unimpressive neutral sound, without trying to sound overtly neutral,as the neutrality card overdone, attracts too much attention towards the system and detracts from the music.This balance of required plainess is hard to explain, but the result is easier to understand, you hear the music calmly and it does not demand your attention.
The tone is important here, as it should be requisitely plain throughout the frequency spectrum, as that is the only way to serve all instruments equally,without preferring any type or set of instruments over the others.
Details should be served in a ordinary manner to the required level ,of what you as a human would hear, and not what a lab calibrated microphone would pick up.
Timing is of utmost importance here, as the ability to start and stop correctly,without being ultra transient resolute is very crucial.None of those,'wow what speed and transients'should happen.
Imaging is of very little importance to me and it is only a function of setup.Rather soundstaging takes more importance,as in a systems abilities to unfold landscapes infront of the loudspeaker baffle plane,in a manner so as to remove the constraints of room size, especially the side walls.This last quality with regards to soundstaging is something new I am experiencing, and is proving to more involving to the music, rather than the system showing its sonic fingerprint via the depth perspective,whereby deep soundstages distract you from the music,because you are attracted to the deep soundstage itself.
Colourations exist in all systems, the fewer the better, especially those induced by enclosures and alignment mismatch.
If you haven't realised, I have talked about what I dont want from of my system, instead of what I want from my system. This thinking process has happened in the last one year while developing my DIY speaker,whereby the process of elimination has led to the result of realisation, instead of the normal way of wanting something and working for it.
Fatigue free musical communication,without going 'wow'is the goal for me.The performance and I should live in harmony as friends on a daily basis and sharing the same space.That is my new stereo concept.
Hell, damn long post,sorry if it is boring.
Regards Deaf.

Hey satyam !
Nice to see a familiar view.

BTW Deaf, you just may have a point in identifying what you dont need in your system instead of what you do. An easier way it is, I would think to get to "your personal" holy grail of audio. That angle definately needs to be explored more...very interesting but subconciously one does that very often when one is doing the listening but when people buy they buy for what the products delivers and not for what it doesnt....I like the way you think.

manek.

Two questions.

What is the frame of reference you use to judge the tonal quality/accuracy of sound in Hifi a system ?

I mean it's kinda easy when it comes to accoustic music.The frame of reference is a live performance, preferably minimally amplified in a good setting.

Which leads me to the next question.

Does the same criteria apply if one's inclination is more towards electric/electronic/sythesized music?

So if I'm fundamentally into trance,death metal,techno what should I be looking for in a Hifi system?

Good question Krish,

trance, techno....really what does one compare it with ? Maybe a neighbours boom-box ? Or maybe a comparision to the venue one hears this music often like the night clubs, where music is essentially played through PA systems and spl presides over sound quality....

good question indeed.....I've always wondered about this myself....

Any ideas guys ?

Manek.

deaf schrieb:

Recently I have gone through some huge concept changes as to the role of different aspects required in stereo playback. One of the main changes is that, I prefer a completely unimpressive neutral sound, without trying to sound overtly neutral,as the neutrality card overdone, attracts too much attention towards the system and detracts from the music.This balance of required plainess is hard to explain, but the result is easier to understand, you hear the music calmly and it does not demand your attention. The tone is important here, as it should be requisitely plain throughout the frequency spectrum, as that is the only way to serve all instruments equally,without preferring any type or set of instruments over the others. Details should be served in a ordinary manner to the required level ,of what you as a human would hear, and not what a lab calibrated microphone would pick up. Timing is of utmost importance here, as the ability to start and stop correctly,without being ultra transient resolute is very crucial.None of those,'wow what speed and transients'should happen. Imaging is of very little importance to me and it is only a function of setup.Rather soundstaging takes more importance,as in a systems abilities to unfold landscapes infront of the loudspeaker baffle plane,in a manner so as to remove the constraints of room size, especially the side walls.This last quality with regards to soundstaging is something new I am experiencing, and is proving to more involving to the music, rather than the system showing its sonic fingerprint via the depth perspective,whereby deep soundstages distract you from the music,because you are attracted to the deep soundstage itself. Colourations exist in all systems, the fewer the better, especially those induced by enclosures and alignment mismatch. If you haven't realised, I have talked about what I dont want from of my system, instead of what I want from my system. This thinking process has happened in the last one year while developing my DIY speaker,whereby the process of elimination has led to the result of realisation, instead of the normal way of wanting something and working for it. Fatigue free musical communication,without going 'wow'is the goal for me.The performance and I should live in harmony as friends on a daily basis and sharing the same space.That is my new stereo concept. Hell, damn long post,sorry if it is boring. Regards Deaf.

Dear Deaf,
your requirements have the signature of a studio system all over them!
This is the kind of systems say Bernie Grundman Studios, Stan Ricker, Doug Sax, Skywalker Labs, etc would want to assemble.

Does the same criteria apply if one's inclination is more towards electric/electronic/sythesized music? So if I'm fundamentally into trance,death metal,techno what should I be looking for in a Hifi system?

same here..I too listen these genres over others..so manek,deaf, bombaywalla

Manek schrieb:

Good question Krish, trance, techno....really what does one compare it with ? Maybe a neighbours boom-box ? Or maybe a comparision to the venue one hears this music often like the night clubs, where music is essentially played through PA systems and spl presides over sound quality.... good question indeed.....I've always wondered about this myself.... Any ideas guys ? Manek.

For the answer to that you have to understand why trance/dub/house/ techno are so popular. It's music which puts people into a particular frame of mind. It's dance music - meant to excite the nerves. It's "trippy"! This is the reason why a DJ "mixes" beats... so that the excitement doesn't lapse with each changing track. This is also the reason for tempo/pitch control on DJ equipment. Your system should give you this feeling when you listen to a track on it. - Usually with enhanced highs, mids and lows.

Secondly, this genre of music is very, very lower frequency oriented. Listeners want to "feel" the beat. So aspects like imaging go out the window and pure "pump" is appreciated.

The term "critical listening" doesn't apply here. This very essence of this genre of music is that you're NOT SUPPOSED TO LISTEN CRITICALLY!

Trance - Techno affecianados aren't exactly like us audiophiles. They're more "bass fiends" !

To add.. this is music that thrives on distortion. The cuts, the scratches, phlanges... now isn't that absolutely un-audiophile!

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Does the same criteria apply if one's inclination is more towards electric/electronic/sythesized music? So if I'm fundamentally into trance,death metal,techno what should I be looking for in a Hifi system? same here..I too listen these genres over others..so manek,deaf, bombaywalla

Dear Sub Boss
Ever hear about JBL, Cerwin-Vega? .They exist in the market,hugely so because of a particular demand, don't they?You need one these, for the type of music mentioned.
I really like some of the JBL and Cerwins for rock too.
Try them with a tube and you may actually hit a good combo.
Regards Deaf

Ever hear about JBL, Cerwin-Vega? .They exist in the market,hugely so because of a particular demand, don't they?You need one these, for the type of music mentioned.

Why is that so..pop sounds good on a audiophile system too and I always enjoy those good old BoneyM, Kraftwerk CD's..so is metal also..beleive me listening to metal on a high res system is non-fatigiung..and to talk of drunk head banging clowns who have changed the metal perspective as to "Blast it and get sloshed"..yes I do agree it would lack the boom factor what JBL's give you but nevertheless you need a real good set up for that bass giutar to sound seperated from acoustic guitar and add that drums slashed at the back end..

Why is classic and jazz so popluar among audiophiles???
Prime reason is you get good recorded CD's..I'm looking forward for the day when good recorded Cd's of Pop, Metal, Foot tappers and we will have audiophiles with variuos interests in genres..

Dear Bombaywalla
My requirements are not like a studio system i.e a mixing monitor,rather more like a mastering system, which is truer in every sense of playback.
Regards Deaf.

I always found the sound to be more natural from my old Imported BASF, CrO2, Metal tapes than CD's provided you have a good casette player..They sound fantastic. Anyone planning to have a good set up should include a Naks Dragon and see the diffrence..I prefer to listen to my all time fave Chris de burgh thru tape than CD..

rather more like a mastering system, which is truer in every sense of playback.

But at what price friend??? I think even after spending a fortune we will have some quips about the sound..so where's the end??..have you attained your desired audio grail??

deaf schrieb:

Dear Bombaywalla My requirements are not like a studio system i.e a mixing monitor,rather more like a mastering system, which is truer in every sense of playback. Regards Deaf.

Dear Deaf,
that's what I meant - mastering system.
I wrote "studio system" using the term to mean systems that are placed in studio locations. However, I cited names of reknowned mastering people.

Going back to genres like Techno, Trance, Metal etc...I do listen to them sometimes and I totally agree with sub_boss that listening to it with the "right kind" of hi-rez system is totally a different experience..its in another level altogether. Yes, its true that Punch and SPL has a lot more significance here than in other genres, but I believe when you shell out lacs on a hi-rez system (and carefully select it), it shouldnt be devoid of these things especially when you need them.
Popular belief among audiophile is that, these genres are non-audiophilic so they have nothing to do with hi-rez...."TOTALLY WRONG" IMO...its just that the awareness is lacking among people who are into these genres (mostly youngsters)...and the awareness is lacking because the "reference" is lacking. As Manek, says that its difficult guage the frame of referrence for Techno so even a boom boom out of a Sony compo sounds accurate (in absence of reference) but listen to a Klipsch after that and your concept changes.
So practically speaking the frame of referrence for these genres is nothing but the "best system" you have heard the music with. So the referrence itself varies from person to person and within the person it keeps on changing as he comes across better systems .
Also good recorded material matters a lot even for Techno and Metal genres...an A/B can immediately show the difference even in these rather messy genres.

All in all, a good system cant be discarded for any genre of music...and thats what differentiates an audiophile from a non-audiophile.

abhi.pani schrieb:

As Manek, says that its difficult guage the frame of referrence for Techno so even a boom boom out of a Sony compo sounds accurate (in absence of reference) but listen to a Klipsch after that and your concept changes.

good grief! which model of Klipsch are you talking about? Can you please tell us? Thanks!
Klipsch stopped making loudspeakers of any note atleast 10-15 years ago!
their best models are stil from the 1970s or earlier & maybe 1980s.
Whatever is being sold in the market today is utter trash!

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: As Manek, says that its difficult guage the frame of referrence for Techno so even a boom boom out of a Sony compo sounds accurate (in absence of reference) but listen to a Klipsch after that and your concept changes. good grief! which model of Klipsch are you talking about? Can you please tell us? Thanks! Klipsch stopped making loudspeakers of any note atleast 10-15 years ago! their best models are stil from the 1970s or earlier & maybe 1980s. Whatever is being sold in the market today is utter trash! :L

I listen to a lot of rock but as for trance, techno... I think the best setup would be(if one wants to spend big bucks) then you must go and get yourself a good active PA setup as a GOOD "audiophile setup" would just make it sound well hmm very boring, extremely clean, unexciting.

As for the klipsch well 1 week at best 2 and you would have to visit the ENT no offense meant just my opinion.

Regards,

Satyam.

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: As Manek, says that its difficult guage the frame of referrence for Techno so even a boom boom out of a Sony compo sounds accurate (in absence of reference) but listen to a Klipsch after that and your concept changes. good grief! which model of Klipsch are you talking about? Can you please tell us? Thanks! Klipsch stopped making loudspeakers of any note atleast 10-15 years ago! their best models are stil from the 1970s or earlier & maybe 1980s. Whatever is being sold in the market today is utter trash! :L

Hi Bombaywalla,
I am talking about the Klipsch Referrence series. I know they were mainly built for HT purpose but still they do Rock and Techno very well I suppose...havent spent much time with them though. Still my context of speech was not to emphasize Klipsch but to emphasize on the purpose of having an "appropriate" hi-rez system even for genres like Techno and Metal. Personally I like the sound of bigger Dynaudios for Techno as well as hard rock.

Abhi,

Klipsch and big Dynaudios for techno music !! arn't they poles apart ?

Hey Ani,
Yah they are poles apart but still, when matched with the right amp, they do justice to these genres in their own way IMO..and I like the way Dynas do it (not in your face but still all around)...real deep and enigmatic sounding without hurting your ears .

good grief! which model of Klipsch are you talking about? Can you please tell us? Thanks! Klipsch stopped making loudspeakers of any note atleast 10-15 years ago! their best models are stil from the 1970s or earlier & maybe 1980s. Whatever is being sold in the market today is utter trash!

I agree you no longer get those good old Khorns..but I don't know what makes you feel it's utter trash..why not give it a listen with class A or tubes and you would change your opinion.Parnering equpiment makes hellish diffrence here and I don't blame you if you make this statement as many have made..so my suggestion is put it in a good setup and have a listen.

As for the klipsch well 1 week at best 2 and you would have to visit the ENT no offense meant just my opinion.

Dear friend it's tough to gel high senstive speakers to amps and NAD sounds crap..beleive me, but a class A is a class apart. It's very sensitive to placement and once you get the sync you are tapping your foot. BTW can you please let us know as to why a listening for 2 weeks should anybody visit ENT??

All in all, a good system cant be discarded for any genre of music...and thats what differentiates an audiophile from a non-audiophile.

Very true..I have seen many audiophiles having jazz as refernce for evaluation and evaluation only, but does it mean you are non-audiophile if you listen to other genres in your leisure...crazy..lots of BS floats on p*ss in this audio world... My colleague in australia has excellent set-up and listens to bhajans and folk songs so take a stab mates..If this is the case then I'm a non-audiophile and pox to rest of them...hell I find some western classics so disgusting that I once had to make a comment that it's the kind of music that is being played in funerals...

Sub,
Looks like your postings and your avatar goes hand in hand.....

On second thoughts, deaf may have a point when he points to Cerwin vega or JBL for techno/trance/death-metal and similar generes.....


manek.

Sub, Looks like your postings and your avatar goes hand in hand.....

Has to brother...I have to potray what I'm..

On second thoughts, deaf may have a point when he points to Cerwin vega or JBL for techno/trance/death-metal and similar generes.....

you are right and so is deaf, but I'm happy with what I have and listening close to 2 years it's my neightbours who have had increased visits to cardiologist and not me to an ENT (No rubbing here to dear sbfx )

abhi, I'm curious to know how Your plinius deals with techno and trance and such stuff ? How does it compare to say a night club with a good PA system ?

manek.

Dear Manek
I mention these brands because the mastering for the generes of these types of music,is done for speakers and systems which are essentially non audiophile(hence a much larger audience ).Nothing wrong in any type of speaker,as long it serves your type of music correctly.
Man DEEP PURPLE sounded the best when I was 16 on my friend's Akai speakers,it sucks on Sonus fabers though .
Regards Deaf.

Deaf you are the only one with sharp ears who has heard my version and felt the same way too..thanks mate..BTW why call yourself deaf when you have shining golden ears

Yes deaf,
I did get the rationale for your choice earlier on.

BTW Deep Purple, Scorpions, led zepp and others also did sound great on my sonodyne 200watt amp, their matching speakers spectrum 5000, sony deck, akai equilizer and Akai TT when I was 16 too....but then that was another time and age Good old days they were heh heh....

Manek.

bombaywalla schrieb:

deaf schrieb: Dear Bombaywalla My requirements are not like a studio system i.e a mixing monitor,rather more like a mastering system, which is truer in every sense of playback. Regards Deaf. Dear Deaf, that's what I meant - mastering system. I wrote "studio system" using the term to mean systems that are placed in studio locations. However, I cited names of reknowned mastering people.

Dear Bombaywalla,
Thank you for mentioning those illustrious names,for the type of sound I prefer.A realisation, that takes not only many years of listening, but also thinking and evolving as you change and shape, what matters to you least, instead of what matters to you most.The process of elimination, of an audio systems least desireable qualities, step by step, leaves me with what matters the most.Music.
Regards Deaf.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Deaf you are the only one with sharp ears who has heard my version and felt the same way too..thanks mate..BTW why call yourself deaf when you have shining golden ears

Dear Sub Boss
Thanks man.You know I always believe music is the end,and a system is only one of many roads towards that end.Each person has to choose the road he or she prefers, simple.
Regards Deaf.

I always believe music is the end,and a system is only one of many roads towards that end.Each person has to choose the road he or she prefers, simple.

I confess.... I ENJOY ther vehicle And the Ride !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I always believe music is the end,and a system is only one of many roads towards that end.Each person has to choose the road he or she prefers, simple. I confess.... I ENJOY ther vehicle And the Ride ! :*

Sure Amp Nut
But one must choose the vehicle that suits their needs the most.
Regards Deaf.

I too feel the ride is thrilling I bet once you attain perfection there is no fun..So there have to be some irregularities to keep us marching ahead on our toes...

BTW Amp_nut i liked your signature..makes lot of sense..

But one must choose the vehicle that suits their needs the most

Yes what if like a Willys over a jaguar or a lotus over beetle is personal choice, But never ever be stuck in a situation that you want a Jeep and but seated in a Montana..

Manek schrieb:

abhi, I'm curious to know how Your plinius deals with techno and trance and such stuff ? How does it compare to say a night club with a good PA system ? manek.

Manek,
Plinius in itself does a great job for Techno and Trance, with solid lows, sexy mids and crispy highs...all the details intact but my Audience52 bookshelves are the limitations here. The outright bass (whether its recorded or not) is missing sometimes..may be thats where the bookshelf falls back. But everything else, the ambience it creates are soooo good, thats why I said that I would love Techno on the bigger Dynas
To me even Techno and Metal has to be involving else its more like a noise...

Plinius in itself does a great job for Techno and Trance, with solid lows, sexy mids and crispy highs...all the details intact but my Audience52 bookshelves are the limitations here. The outright bass (whether its recorded or not) is missing sometimes..may be thats where the bookshelf falls back.

Dude your set up has very good bass, but the Cd's what we play are crap..can't run a good one on kerosene can we??? get a good xrcd of pop and see how your ears will pop..Hmm get rigid stands and see the tactile bass..sorry feel it...hehehe

XRCD for a Techno...hmmm..this itself has got me kicking. . Will have to source from outside..Bangalore sucks

Bangalore sucks

Why blame bangalore only, tell me if it is available anywhere?? No they are not

Dear sub-boss,
Your punching man logo is rather distracting. I cant focus on what you have to say. Can you not find something friendlier and audiophle.
Purnendu