Pointer - The Devialet D Premier Integrated Amp + DAC

(Thanks for starting this thread, Amp_Nut! Just wanted to say that I chose the Accuphase amp because it has expansion slots that let you add their DAC-20 board, that I'm told is comparable to their DP-500 player. I am looking to an HDD based system in future that rips and serves all my music in FLAC from a bank of 2TB hard drives (yes, tall order). Thus, I would especially appreciate information on such products. Sorry for this OT aside.)

CONGRATS, Particleman !
QSONIX Touchscreen based, User Friendly and intutive system.

Its sold in India by Audio Vision.

Pre-owned systems are now appearing on Audiogon and I even know of a Mumbai based audiophile who is selling his ... to upgrade to QSONIX's latest...

Check out the demo on their site.

IMHO, a key to HDD polayback is quick and user friendly archival and retrival.

If you prefer the Computer route, there are meany seasoned users on this forum : SBK, Bhagwan69 and MSJ, who are down this path and will be happy to advice...

CONGRATS Again on your purchase.

Here is a product that I have been looking into for the last couple of weeks. I am intrigued.

http://www.lampizator.eu/szop/L-Szop/LAMPIZATOR_DAC.html

This man Lukasz Fikus has been modding CDPs since last 6 years or so and has been experimenting with lots of DACs and Trasnports. Finally he claims to have come up with a DAC which is a top tier reference grade product and more importantly an Original design. I have interacted with some audiophiles from Audiogon, Echoloft and HK forums who have heard his DAC (last prototype models) and they are thrilled. Some shootouts conducted among these audiophiles supposedly resulted in this DAC beating the Audionote DAC 4.1X and getting close to DAC5 performance.

I am not a techie so I could not gather a lot from the technical details of this DAC. But I am watching it.

Thanks for the pointer, Abhi. Very Interseting.

Any idea if this is a "Non-Oversampling' DAC ? This topology results in its own unique sound, that has its own set of followers and dissidents... ( like SET Amps )

I could not find any reference to the DAC Chip used.

He uses 32 bit AKM DAC chip.

Dont think it is NOS..

story here http://lampizator.eu/szop/szopproducts/dac/dacstory.html

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I am starting this thread in the hope that it will be continued by other contributors, to highlight Audiophile products that are Special in any particular way. The 'net has LOTS of audiophile websites and there are lots of products highlighted ... often as 'Flavour of the Month.' Ofcourse we cant separate the chaff from the wheat until we get to hear these products.... Until ten, the reviews serve as pointers. Due to the huge volume of Audiophile reviews on the net, I guess (almost) none of us catch every great products. Its my hope that other contributors will highlight other Great audio products (even if based solely on reviews & here-say) as pointers for others to read up on... Having said that, I am Casting The First Stone for : The Devialet D Premier Integrated Amp + DAC For those who have not stumbled on this product reviews, its being pushed as the Holy Grail, the next best Audiophile Invention to Sound itself An Integrated Amp + DAC is certainly a VERY unusual combination, making a stab for the 'Ultimate Audiophile Component." To boot it uses a Hybrid Class D ( Switching, which is often phoo-phooed by true blue audiophiles )+ Class A amplifier. One of the many Audiophile reviews includes this one from The Absolute Sound (TAS) It is the 1st writeup I have found that provides pictures of the Inside and explains that the Class D Amplifier is used to provide the Current output and the Class A amplifier provides the Voltage Amplification, in its patented "ADH (Analog Digital Hybrid) Technology." For HDD Playback fans: "D-Premier is also Wi-Fi-ready. Devialet’s Wi-Fi module will be available in spring 2011. It will deliver distortion-free, asynchronous audio streaming (up to 24-bit/192kHz), using the D-Premier as the master clock to synchronize the data with extreme precision." Guys, please share your thoughts and also other links on this product & other products. Thanks

Thanks for the link Amp_Nut. I read the (glossy) article on the Devialet D-Premier & am a little shocked/surprised to see the technology that they are using in this system because the very same is being used in the next generation (4G LTE) cellular technology!!

bombaywalla, my knowledge on the topic is sketchy, but from what little I understand, 3G and earlier technologies do not use true IP (Internet protocol) data packets.

4G uses true IP data packets, and therefore (finally) meshes with IP data streams used elsewhere, almost universally.

Hence 4G hardly breaks any new ground, when viewed from the perspective of existing IP technology. Its just a long overdue transition for GSM technology to start using standard IP.

So I am speculating that the Devialet D Premier simply uses existing, standardised, mature and proven IP ..

Expert opinions / clarifications would be Most appreciated.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

bombaywalla, my knowledge on the topic is sketchy, but from what little I understand, 3G and earlier technologies do not use true IP (Internet protocol) data packets. 4G uses true IP data packets, and therefore (finally) meshes with IP data streams used elsewhere, almost universally. Hence 4G hardly breaks any new ground, when viewed from the perspective of existing IP technology. Its just a long overdue transition for GSM technology to start using standard IP. So I am speculating that the Devialet D Premier simply uses existing, standardised, mature and proven IP .. Expert opinions / clarifications would be Most appreciated. :)

Ach, I think you might have misunderstood what I was referring to/writing about: I was specifically referring to the hardware technology used inside the Devialet D Premier box i.e. the "ADH Technology" used. I believe that breaks new ground.

Any experience with this ?
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiophilleo/1.html


its an USB/SPDIF device with better JItter rejection but with a Remote + Digital preamp option

Instead of having to use variable-frequency clocks or phase-locked-loop (PLL) devices to adapt to jittery external clocks, the Audiophilleo instead relies upon its own fixed-frequency high-accuracy clocks. Most digital gear uses a combination of something like relatively ordinary 74LS04 line driver integrated circuits or discrete transistors along with small transformers to stream S/PDIF data to the DAC or other downstream devices. This conventional and widely used approach is reasonable enough for most situations but it has limitations if one is aiming for the ultimate in low jitter and fast rise times. Negligible jitter is highly important because as mentioned earlier, S/PDIF is a legacy signaling protocol in which the sending or host device is the master and the receiving device is slaved to the clock data embedded in the bit stream. Any jitter in the incoming S/PDIF bit stream has to be dealt with in the DAC and this is not an ideal situation.

bombaywalla said:

... & am a little shocked/surprised to see the technology that they are using in this system because the very same is being used in the next generation (4G LTE) cellular technology!!:cut

I was specifically referring to the hardware technology used inside the Devialet D Premier box i.e. the "ADH Technology" used.

I am confused... Are you saying that ADH is used in 4G LTE cellular technology ?

for the rest of the folks who were clueless like I was untill this moment

ADH (Analog Digital Hybrid) Technology ADH® (Analog/Digital Hybrid) is a new and patented form of amplification specially developed by Devialet. It is this proprietary technology that enables products like the company’s flagship D-Premier to be so slim yet deliver so much power. It is also the reason why no other amplifier can match the Devialet’s exceptional sonic performance. ADH® combines pure Class A operation – long recognized to be the most desirable form of solid-state amplification, in terms of pure sound quality – with the benefits of Class D, operating in parallel with one another.

so this must be the reason for ..

Best of both worlds Although pure Class A amplifiers sound great, they are usually comparatively large, consume lots of power, run very hot and aren’t particularly powerful (in terms of current delivery). Class D amplification, meanwhile, can deliver prodigious amounts of current from a relatively compact, cool-running chassis. Yet while resolution can be excellent, Class D is often criticized for sounding ‘cold’ and weak in terms of bass depth and quality. By combining Class A and Class D in a manner never before achieved, Devialet has created electronics that deliver tremendous loudspeaker control and dynamic authority, yet the character of the sound you hear is pure Class A refinement.

sure is interesting..and considering its $18000 retail ill have to wait for the trickle down to really flow down before thinking of owning one

Amp_Nut schrieb:

bombaywalla said: ... & am a little shocked/surprised to see the technology that they are using in this system because the very same is being used in the next generation (4G LTE) cellular technology!!:cut I was specifically referring to the hardware technology used inside the Devialet D Premier box i.e. the "ADH Technology" used. I am confused... Are you saying that ADH is used in 4G LTE cellular technology ?

yes! in the implementation of some of the hardware inside the user handset (cellphone).

Hi Bombaywalla,

Since you are familiar with this technology, can you clarfy if ADH uses the Class A amplifier for :

1. Only the Voltage Waveform, with the current delivered by a Class D Amplifier.

OR

2. The Class A amplifier is used ONLY for the High Frequency portion ?

The Block Diagram here :

http://media.avguide.com/rsz_d-premiere_amp_config.jpg

and the Writeup differ on this count.

Thanks

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, Since you are familiar with this technology, can you clarfy if ADH uses the Class A amplifier for : 1. Only the Voltage Waveform, with the current delivered by a Class D Amplifier. OR 2. The Class A amplifier is used ONLY for the High Frequency portion ? The Block Diagram here : http://media.avguide.com/rsz_d-premiere_amp_config.jpg and the Writeup differ on this count. Thanks

yes, I noticed that too - the block diagram is correct between the two. The class-A amplifier is implemented as efficiently as possible to provide current for the hi freq content only & it's o/p current is minimized (to maintain that efficiency). The class-D amplifier, in comparison, is less efficient & does all the low freq work.
I do not know where the lo freq/hi freq cut-off is for this particular implementation but the upper treble (>3KHz) should be all class-A.

thats interesting..in my past experiments with the Tripath amp, it was the high frequency which was not great in the so called digital amplifiers.

But isnt the integeration point ie the crossover between the Class A and Class D sections difficult to manage ?

Arj schrieb:

thats interesting..in my past experiments with the Tripath amp, it was the high frequency which was not great in the so called digital amplifiers.

You know, once I started working on switched-mode power supplies (SMPS) for cellphones, it dawned on me that class-D power amplifiers are basically SMPS except that the DC voltage reference is replaced by the music signal! That's it! So, all the things that one would learn to design & implement a good SMPS are applicable to an audio class-D power amp. That's why it's so hard to get right!
The switcher is running at a high frequency relative to the audio band - 1MHz or 2MHz. So, there is a lot of high freq noise in the system. There is an L-C tank circuit at the output that is used to suppress this high frequency noise & voltage ripple BUT this L-C filter creates 180 degrees of phase shift (we have a complex pole-zero pair a +/- jb with each complex pole creating 90 degrees of phase shift). On top of this there is some sort of low-pass filter network in the main SMPS loop to ensure that the system is stable so that also adds phase shift. So, in the end, the SMPS system can be marginally unstable/oscillatory if the design is not robust &/or the speaker load has a "devilish impedance & phase" (there's that term again!! ) behaviour. So, high frequency noise due to the switcher freq + the loop dynamics when connected to the speaker can easily create a hash of the high freq signal. I can see that happening.....

Arj schrieb:

But isnt the integeration point ie the crossover between the Class A and Class D sections difficult to manage ?

Not really - it can be a very simple 1st order high-pass filter that feeds the class-A amplifier. You need to know exactly where to tap the signal to input to this high-pass filter. Once you do, you can eliminate the low freq content to the class-A amp thereby ensuring that it responds only to the high freq. There can be a turn-on calibration that ensures that the filter corner is relatively stable.
At any rate this cut-off is not a brick-wall; it supposed to be a soft(er) cut-off so that you do not hear when the class-D turns off & when the class-A turns on & vice-versa.

bombaywalla, since you are at the cutting edge of this, and have probably Heard the new amplification tpology... Does it disctinctly improve the sound on a 5 mm Cellphone speaker ?

Arj Wrote:

thats interesting..in my past experiments with the Tripath amp, it was the high frequency which was not great in the so called digital amplifiers.

You are very correct... Class D (switching amps) have often been criticised for poor HF and extended HF performance.

A little known fact is that most Class D amps CANNOT deliver their rated Power @ 20KHz.

They may have a Frequency Response to 20 KHz. This is usually measured when delivering a TOKEN output power... often 1 Watt.

These amps Do Not deliver a 20 KHz POWER OUTPUT RESPONSE ie full power at 20 KHz.

ADH amalgamates a Class A amp with a Class D amp.

Brings back to me memories of the RADICALLY different QUAD 405 Current Dumping Amplifier, which similarly amalgamated a very low power Class A amp with a high power Class B amplifier ... that was 2 decades ago .... ?


And a final swan song for the Class A power amplifiers, Bhagwan69 told me that many countries have set a sunset date on their manufacture & sale. Since they are not 'green' (consume too much power) they are being BANNED and made illegal...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

bombaywalla, since you are at the cutting edge of this, and have probably Heard the new amplification tpology... Does it disctinctly improve the sound on a 5 mm Cellphone speaker ? :?

Amp_Nut, just wanted to make something clear here (& this is something I stated in my original post which was #8 - the statement was subtle which was my fault. So I'm re-stating hopefully more clearly):
what I find incredibly interesting with the Devialet's D-premier product is that they have implemented a technology for audio (20Hz-20KHz) that I see being used in 4G/LTE cellular handsets for power management (i.e. in the 4G/LTE cellular environment this technology is used to improve battery life. it is not used for audio). what's really interesting is how the same technology has two different applications in two different industries & it is occuring at the same point in time.....
Needless to say, Amp_Nut as you correctly pointed out, it's a waste of time to even consider using this technology to improve the sonics thru the "paatya" cellphone speaker.

quoted from a pdf

How this works is to have a small Class A amplifier directly coupled to the loudspeaker, to provide the voltage, while the Class D amplifier provides almost all the current needed to drive the loudspeaker. If you disabled the Class D circuit, you’d have something that would be capable of driving horn loudspeakers and headphones in its own right, but the hired muscle of the Class D amp bestows the same linearity to more demanding loudspeaker loads. Eagle- eyed readers with long memories might note that this concept is not far removed from the Quad “current dumping” 405 amplifier of the 1970s. It’s brought bang up to date, but the concept is similar.

The Stenheim Alumine speaker. This is the flavor of the season on audiogon forums competing with YGA, Magico etc..
I was struck by how this speakers looks very much like an "80's loudspeaker” rejecting all Avant garde looks and still managed to catch the fancy of rich audiophiles.

http://cybwiz.blogspot.com/2010/11/stenheim-alumine.html

12000 euro