Power Cord : The most important cable in a hifi setup ?

To ease any confusion as to why the dilemma... they are all similarly priced...

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

Dear Ampnut..... This is an astonishing finishing line.... "However, the EC and DAD surprisingly sounded VERY similar... FAR LESS of a difference between the EC & DAD DACs than a Change in the Power being changed from the Shunyata to the PLMM or Acoustic Revive" I am currently faced with a slightly similar dilemma if not the same.... 1) Buy the Audionet "Max" monoblocks (currently rated as amongst the best) 2) Buy a set of Octave MRE 130 monos (to go with my pre.. Octave HP500SE) 3) Buy a speaker cable form Zensati (Zensati #1). This is speaker cable only, no interconnects. I have been told that this is a gem beyond compare... so... now do you find the slight similarity?

switch-it-on, you have a surprisingly pleasant dilemma .
Even though I have not heard any of the products you have mentioned, I do have some thoughts to share.
If you are looking for a change in signature sound of your system, it should be mostly done through Electronics, in this case the two amps you have mentioned. OTOH, if you just want your existing system to perform at its best then it could be the cables, something that can totally get out of the way.

For the second case I suppose one needs to really know the potential of his existing gear (in your case your amplifier) and how much is left to be tapped. And whether it is more of the same thing is all that one wants.

I am also in a situation where I am looking to upgrade my source. I used a Reimyo DAC all this while. The question was 3 folds:

1. Use the Reimyo but give it the best possible power and cables so that it performs at its best.

2. Climb up the Reimyo chain and buy their next higher DAC.

3. No more Reimyo.

I have decided to leave Reimyo. The reason is rather simple, I am looking for a different sound now. I rather have an imagination of how my next source should sound. For such a thing cables may not be the best way to do it. Hope you get my drift.

SWITCH-IT-ON we both listen to / appreciate our music Very differently, hence my thoughts on the upgrade priority may be irrelevant to you...

To me Speaker cables make the least diff, so I would give that my lowest priority....

The choice of whether to spend, leads me to my (surprising) last line comment in my previous post, that you highlighted.

Frankly, I too was SHOCKED that a Power cable made a bigger diff than a DAC ! Sounds absurd, but I have also heard Only 'minor' difference between CD players in an Otherwise Top Notch system.

My take on this is that most systems are not 'Transparent' (enough). I use the word Transparent in this context, to refer to a system, who's sound changes RADICALLY, to reveal the sound signature of the new component introduced.

To me Transparent is QUITE Different from 'Revealing' because, often the term Revealing is used when a system changes its sound in some way to indicate a change (eg a different speaker cable).

Components such as a CD Player, Pre and Power Amp should (IMHO) sound RADICALLY different, UNLESS they are masked by an over bearing sonic signature such as say of the (Non Transparent) speakers. A difference in sound will be heard even in a Non Transparent system, but the full extent of the difference will be masked...

I wonder if I am able to convey my thoughts clearly on what I refer to 'Transparent' ...

As an example, does Changing the CD player make a similar magnitude of Change to the sound as changing yr speakers ? ( The Speakers and Room, IMHO are usually the Least Transparent components )

On any new purchase..... My thought would be that before changing your power Amp, substitute another (similar calibre, but maybe radically different... say a valve unit.. LARS ) Power Amp borrowed from an audiophile and see if the sound Has changed SO RADICALLY much as to qualify your setup as Transparent. If yes, consider a significant spend.... If not, you will probably only get a difference / change that may not be worth the spend, particularly if you are unhappy about a particular aspect in your existing setup that you want to rectify...

I agree with Abhis view on Component Vs PC/other cables.
While I am unable to express it so distinctly in Black and white, a component change is a difference in presentation while a chord change is more about details/fleshing it out etc. while the PC change is like a Lens change a component is like a change in the specimen under the lens.

eg My dac and transport are behaving like 2 different specimens with a power re generator than without it..although the signature sound is pretty much the same.

agreeing with AN in the fact that PC changes have sounded more stark vis-a-vis component changes which take a longer time to appreciate..but once you get the change it becomes very obvious the next time.

one reasoning I have is a Power chord is not a straightforward improvement ..some things improve but some things go south as well...and maybe thats why the change is so stark.


eg when I compare between a Yamamura and an ESP reference PC. Yamamura makes the sound more musical the bass a bit softer, the decay is longer but the attack is slightly more softer in comparison with the ESP which makes the presentation tighter, bass to be very distinct. attack is very precise and decay shorter. the sound is more clear and slightly louder and the background noise lower.

both have their faults and their advantages..and when you compare two the differences are still starker.

Arj, I am not familiar with the Power Cords that you refer to.

Maybe if you moved significantly up from these 2, you would get a power cord that was All-Round Superior ?

maybe AN..what i was trying to highlight was individually i would like both..but on an A/B they differences seems huge.

Actually after i put in the re generator the differences also reduced

Arj, Just curious... have you tried 'lifting' the ground on the AC Regenerator ?

No...but considering my general lack of skills, will it Kill me ?
if not, how do i do it...dont mind giving it a try

This is a gutt feel... A very imp wire could be the fuse the devices carry.
Has anyone tried to use a mcb(or any other type of breaker) instead of a fuse for protection and found a difference?


Manek

Manek, I use Gamut Monoblock Power Amps, that are supposed to be (almost) immune to power cords ...

A couple of months ago, a Friend from Holland got me a pair of FURUTECH fuses. I substituted them in my power Amp, and they yielded and Instant ( incremental) improvement. Its not the order of magnitude that power cords bring to the table, but the change is clearly audible. .. that's just 1 centimeter of wire changed in the path !

Regarding MCB (Mini Circuit Breakers).... I have seen Audiophile systems with these before juice is fed to the equipment.

IMHO, MCBs in an audio system are a COMPLETE NO-NO.

An MCB uses a bi metalic strip ... Both metals used are poor conductors, and start heating up when ANY current is passed thru them. The 2 metals expand differently, and the bi metallic stip curves when higher current flows thu it. Ultimately, the stip (inside the MCB) curves so much that electrical contact is broken, when a high current passes thru it.

The MCB essentially introduces a high and constantly varying resistance in the electrical path. The resistance gets higher when the amp demands higher current, in principle throttling the dynamic current delivery...

It has NO place in a Hi Fi set up... IMHO of course

No...but considering my general lack of skills, will it Kill me ? if not, how do i do it...dont mind giving it a try

The procedure is quite simple.....

You need to disconnect the Earth Pin, before the plug is inserted into the mains socket.

If you are using an 3 pin Indian Mains plug, simply unscrew the eath pin on the plug, and insert the plug.

If you are using a US plug, then you will need to use an adapter between the US plug and the Indian Wall socket. (Easily available for MX for approx Rs 50 ).

Simply unscrew the Ground pin of the adapter, before inserting it in the Indian Wall socket. ( This is usually referred to as a 'Cheater Plug' )



Will it Kill you ? Nah !

From Experience I can tell you that probably more than 50% of wall sockets in our home dont even have a Ground wire ( or a FUNCTIONAL Ground wire ) in them. We have been using those wall outlets for YEARS with misguided reassurance...

Hi ampnut

Wouldn't the same apply to a regular bottle fuse as well ? The more the current, the higher the temp and more the resistance ?

Secondly, hasn't anyone made a "audiophile" mcb and are selling them for a few thousand dollars ? :-)

I have read about mcb's with brass contacts, somewhere, don't remember where.

My concern with fuses is this : we spend thousands for powercords as fat as gadening hose pipes with exotic materials to ensure good current delivery amongst other things and then we pass that thru a wire a diameter of a hair. Isn't this negating a lot that is being achieved by the power cord and its plugs ?

Very curious........!

Manek

One more thing ampnut

The wall power socket feeding the equipment would mostly have an mcb feedind it from the home power distribution panel so the bad effects of an mcb are already there in the power chain.

Manek

Wanted to revive this thread ...

Looking for a REALLY Good Power Cord.

Would appreciate suggestions, based :

1. Your Personal Experiences ( Preferred)

or

2. References / recommendations in Reviews and on the 'net.

THANKS !

hearing a lot about PS Audio AC10 and XLO ref as being very good in instantaneous current delivery..
they are good , well engineered powerchords . will try to get hold of one one of these days

Transparent is supposed to the power chord thig very well as wellwith improvement and cost increase as we go up the range as well.

but overall the industry is defined by AN's Signature

Hi AN, it is a good feeling that this thread of mine has triggered your interest in power cords rather intensely. Now that you have heard some really good power cords (Transparent, Acoustic Revive) and appreciated what they do, I am wondering what exactly is your expectation from the power cord you want to purchase now. Few curious questions:

1. Where would you like to use it on your system ?
a) Before the conditioner
b) Source
c) Preamp
d) power amp
Ideally this should not matter because a good power cord sounds good on all components. Still if you have already decided, let us know.

2. Budget ?

3. Why not Transparent or Acoustic revive which you have already experienced and liked ?

Another thing, if you think your Hydra improves upon the wall supply, I would strongly suggest you try the Monarchy Regenerator which at $550 is cheaper than a decent power cord but does wonders. I know the power supply off the wall in Mumbai is really good but I have realized that it is not just the quality of power but also quantity that has a huge impact on the sound. The transients at the micro level really need instantaneous power delivered in a time frame of nano seconds and that means absolutely unhindered free flow of power which the Monarchy guys claim (after hearing I also believe their claim) to achieve through capacitor banks which our wall socket doesnt have. Having said all that a good power cord is still irreplaceable.

Hi Abhi,

Yes, thanks for the post which proved to be a GOOD pointer for me...

First of all I would like to say that I am not looking for the power cord to provide any particular / peculiar character or change the tone.

To respond to your questions:


1. I plan to buy a Single Power, the best I can afford ( Rs 50K pre0wned ie a MRP of US $ 2K... my wish list ), to feed my CD player.

My personal observation (YMMV) is that power cords to all other equipment have diminishing impact, so i will use what I already have in these other locations.

2. My intention is to ideally sell my Shunyata Hydra + Python VX power cord @ Rs 80K ), and reallocate the money to this one 'Super cord'.

Yes, I LOVE the Transparent PLMM but would like to consider / listen to other options before taking the plunge.


Thanks also for your pointer to the Monarchy Regenerator. Its asking price is not over-the-top, and infact it would cost me a similar amount to DIY a 1000 Watt regenerator (which I was considering).
Sadly, I do not know of a Monarchy Regenerator in Mumbai, & I avoid buying any Hi Fi component without an audition. ( For all cables, a Home audition in my setup is a Must )...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

My personal observation (YMMV) is that power cords to all other equipment have diminishing impact, so i will use what I already have in these other locations.

completely agree as this has been my personal experience too in my own system & a few others.

Hello AN,
Here are some cables that I have been highly recommended but I have not been able to audition:

1. 6SonsAudio Windigo and Golden Eagle
2. Siltech Ruby Hill
3. Elrod Statement
4. Purist Audio Design Anniversary Edition

The PS Audio AC10 that Arj has suggested has also been recommended highly but for power amps.

BTW, the Monarchy is just a 100 watt regenerator with a headroom till 150 watts. It is only meant to be used on source ans preamps.

Thanks for the suggestions, Abhi.

I should try to audition the Siltech ... should be available in Mumbai.


Thanks for restating that the Monarchy is only 100 Watts. Arj had mentioned in his post.

The reason I was shooting for a 1000 Watt AC Regenerator was that I know of a CROWN pro 1000 Watts (per channel) amp that is on sale cheap. Actually, 1 channel has blown and the other works perfectly. ( Its a Class D / Switching / ICE amp so difficult to repair,


All I need to add is a Crystal controlled 50 Hz sine wave generator and a transformer at the output...

The CROWN Pro power amp is available (Rs 20K 0 for anyone who wants a super powerful amp for their Sub woofer.

I stereo version, fully working is also available.

Anyone interested, please PM me and I will give you the contact details.


Incidentally MSB has just put together 2 x 1000 Watt ICE modules as a power amp for a friend . Super job my MSB. Looks really Very Nice in a Wooden case.

abhi.pani schrieb:

1. 6SonsAudio Windigo and Golden Eagle 2. Siltech Ruby Hill 3. Elrod Statement 4. Purist Audio Design Anniversary Edition

One more to the list, JPS Aluminata. Supposedly outstanding.

Thanks, Abhi.

Alsdo got the news that Transparent cables has released an upgrade to the PLMM Power cord.

I had infact heard and liked (very Much) the PLMM, which had been superceeded by the PLMM (MM2).

Now the PLMMX has been released at CES 2011. The PLMMX is supposed to be a 'HUGE' upgrade to the PLMM.

I hope to get a PLMMX for an audition, within a few weeks.

It also means that the older PLMMs will fall in price in the Pre-Owned market

I am looking at Running Springs Haley or a JAco (the latter when i can save up some serious money..used runs 2.25 k ) A hayley is probably good enough.

The SHunyata Hydra 8 is something that interests me as well. The PS-Audio Premier is another choice.

Plinius seems to recommend Richard Gray stuff..

Anyone have any experience with these power conditioners?

Sachi. you are in a greay area so tread carefully

regaring Richard grey, they work on the principle of parallel circuits + storing energy. What it means is that it will not condition or even interfere with the power, but it will store power which the amp can use for instantanious/dynamic power when needed.
My guess is that it is unecessary in a Pure class A mode as that amp takes in the full capacity of current and provides for the dyanmic requirement..and dissipates unused a heat

Running springs haley seems to be recommended alot. while you are at it do try the BPC (I love this concept) and the Audience Adept as well.

Finally, my bias on the best possible is the Acoustic Revive series..but that costs $$$.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

1. I plan to buy a Single Power, the best I can afford ( Rs 50K pre0wned ie a MRP of US $ 2K... my wish list ), to feed my CD player. My personal observation (YMMV) is that power cords to all other equipment have diminishing impact, so i will use what I already have in these other locations.

This is precisely my finding as well. my transport + Dac react the most to a power cord change and would want to put the best match there.

the amp shows minor difference but not something i would like to spend money around !

do you know any power chord which does Bass well ? need a good one for my Subwoofers...not something more expensive than the sub itself though

I am reading up on VH audio Flavor series...anyone her having experience with those ?

Ampnuts cardas comes to mind.

Manek

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I am looking at Running Springs Haley or a JAco (the latter when i can save up some serious money..used runs 2.25 k ) A hayley is probably good enough. The SHunyata Hydra 8 is something that interests me as well. The PS-Audio Premier is another choice. Plinius seems to recommend Richard Gray stuff.. Anyone have any experience with these power conditioners?

I use a Pure Power 2000 & I want to sell it;
Is any one interested ?
Euro Plugs.
Rs. 110/- K
FOB - Mumbai

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I am looking at Running Springs Haley or a JAco (the latter when i can save up some serious money..used runs 2.25 k ) A hayley is probably good enough. The SHunyata Hydra 8 is something that interests me as well. The PS-Audio Premier is another choice. Plinius seems to recommend Richard Gray stuff.. Anyone have any experience with these power conditioners?

I have the Richard Gray 400 Mk 1 now for some 8+ years. I use it only for the front end components - CDP. FM tuner, TT motor. My preamp goes directly into the wall + my power does the same thing. My feeling is that there is no power conditioner that can be transparent enough for a power amp esp. a class-A mode amp. I think that a power conditioner on a power amp is total waste of time + money. Of course, IMO!
Get a "good" power cord (whatever that means to you), get a decent duplex outlet i.e. change the 50 cent builder's special duplex you now have & plug the SA-100 Mk2 directly into the wall. If you own a house, contact an electrician & lay down a dedicated wire from the electrical panel to the outlet in your listening area. Again, of course, my IMO.

an interesting post

Posted By: Romy the Cat in Audio Discussions Subject: A message. ========================= I know that this post will be lost in the jungles of my site and I am OK with it. Those who follow my site regularly will have a chance to read it not to mention that for me a message is not what heard by other what I managed to express. My message needs to have a preface. I do not spend too much effort to convince regular readers of my site that there is a lot on audio that I truly hate, I truly do. It is not some kind of blind maddening blind hate but rather a very healthy feeling of disgust to something very specific coming from a quite discriminating on a subject mind. So, among many very specific hates that I can diagnose myself there is one that I call "the hate of singular reason in audio". I truly hate when people come to my listening room, like the result, and then run to but the same cartridge I use, or the same driver I use or the same cable elevator I used. On this unfortunate stupidity is a based the entire stupid audio sale: people sell promises and focus promise on a singular pointed element of playback that is under the sale. If I am a reviewer, or salesperson, or any other marketing pimp and my objectives is to sell a driver, or amplifier or DA converter then I would verbalize or demonstrate a good result and point out that this result is a sole accomplishment of the driver driver, or amp or DAC. The fact any serious result is a combination of many variables that took years to learn how to control, including the listening intelligence of a listener, will be obviously behind the curtain of any sales pitch. So, why I am riding the subject of my hate of singular reason? Because in this message would like to reiterate the .surprise, surprise. the singular reason of super importance. It is not hard to guess that the singular reason I am talking about now is the electricity. People who read my site might be surprise or even annoyed by the fact that taking my fight with electricity almost personally for the last 15 years. But my awareness operates by facts and the facts are that electricity has more that profound impact to audio but rather a critical impact. A week or so back, I reported that for two days the electricity was so good that it completely overwritten Sound of my playback, taking it to absolutely new horizons. Over the years I remember only 2 other days like this - one in 2008 and one in 2004. They were not just 'Good electricity days' but they were the 'super electricity days'. Now is the main message for you to get some practical perspective. Over the years you read at my site about tubes and horns, cartridges and DACs, tuners and turntables, drivers and room treatments. In why way or another all of it has huge effect on the audio results. However, in my estimation the gain in amplitude of audio quality that got during those few 'super electricity days' was much more important then any other audio advancements I ever employed. So, with all seriousness I feel that I would prefer to have a table radio with life-long 'super electricity days' then the whole my audio setup with the electricity as is. Make your concussions. Romy The Cat

bombaywalla schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: I am looking at Running Springs Haley or a JAco (the latter when i can save up some serious money..used runs 2.25 k ) A hayley is probably good enough. The SHunyata Hydra 8 is something that interests me as well. The PS-Audio Premier is another choice. Plinius seems to recommend Richard Gray stuff.. Anyone have any experience with these power conditioners? I have the Richard Gray 400 Mk 1 now for some 8+ years. I use it only for the front end components - CDP. FM tuner, TT motor. My preamp goes directly into the wall + my power does the same thing. My feeling is that there is no power conditioner that can be transparent enough for a power amp esp. a class-A mode amp. I think that a power conditioner on a power amp is total waste of time + money. Of course, IMO! Get a "good" power cord (whatever that means to you), get a decent duplex outlet i.e. change the 50 cent builder's special duplex you now have & plug the SA-100 Mk2 directly into the wall. If you own a house, contact an electrician & lay down a dedicated wire from the electrical panel to the outlet in your listening area. Again, of course, my IMO.

B'walla..this is exactly what I am thinking too having had 2-3 conditioners prior with my headphone amplifiers.

I am running the Finolex cables for the power amp for now (which i found better than the Transparent Power Link. Even the EInstein cloned chords from Jochen bettered the Tranparent cable. I have tried a couple of PS audio cables and wasn't too impressed.


So for now am thinking of replacing the wall outlet as you suggested (threw in a hubbel one in my old place myself..yeah illegal i know but seriously it isn't too hard so long as you turn off the circuits and use a DMM to make sure its cold).

This time however i mgiht experiment with Oyaide, Furutech and Hubbell.

I guess having the RIchard gray for 8+ years speaks volumes on how much you like it. THere is a 400 pro local i can get for 375..maybe 350 even..might be willing to give it a shot and see what it does to my system. However from what i have heard the main mod i need to look into for the system is a Mye stand update and when I find the time a crossover upgrade as there is more to be extracted from there than anything else (Well apart from room acoustics). But then we digress.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: Savyasaachi schrieb: I am looking at Running Springs Haley or a JAco (the latter when i can save up some serious money..used runs 2.25 k ) A hayley is probably good enough. The SHunyata Hydra 8 is something that interests me as well. The PS-Audio Premier is another choice. Plinius seems to recommend Richard Gray stuff.. Anyone have any experience with these power conditioners? I have the Richard Gray 400 Mk 1 now for some 8+ years. I use it only for the front end components - CDP. FM tuner, TT motor. My preamp goes directly into the wall + my power does the same thing. My feeling is that there is no power conditioner that can be transparent enough for a power amp esp. a class-A mode amp. I think that a power conditioner on a power amp is total waste of time + money. Of course, IMO! Get a "good" power cord (whatever that means to you), get a decent duplex outlet i.e. change the 50 cent builder's special duplex you now have & plug the SA-100 Mk2 directly into the wall. If you own a house, contact an electrician & lay down a dedicated wire from the electrical panel to the outlet in your listening area. Again, of course, my IMO. B'walla..this is exactly what I am thinking too having had 2-3 conditioners prior with my headphone amplifiers. I am running the Finolex cables for the power amp for now (which i found better than the Transparent Power Link. Even the EInstein cloned chords from Jochen bettered the Tranparent cable. I have tried a couple of PS audio cables and wasn't too impressed. So for now am thinking of replacing the wall outlet as you suggested (threw in a hubbel one in my old place myself..yeah illegal i know but seriously it isn't too hard so long as you turn off the circuits and use a DMM to make sure its cold). This time however i mgiht experiment with Oyaide, Furutech and Hubbell. I guess having the RIchard gray for 8+ years speaks volumes on how much you like it. THere is a 400 pro local i can get for 375..maybe 350 even..might be willing to give it a shot and see what it does to my system. However from what i have heard the main mod i need to look into for the system is a Mye stand update and when I find the time a crossover upgrade as there is more to be extracted from there than anything else (Well apart from room acoustics). But then we digress.

Saachi, I won't say that I "love" my RGPC 400 Mk1. What I will say is that I bought it unheard, placed it in my system where it did not do any sonic damage & I have left it there since it is transparent enough. I know better than to push my luck by connecting the preamp into it & God forbid that I will be stupid enough to connect my power amp into it!

Savyasaachi wrote:

I am running the Finolex cables for the power amp for now (which i found better than the Transparent Power Link. Even the EInstein cloned chords from Jochen bettered the Tranparent cable. I have tried a couple of PS audio cables and wasn't too impressed.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Savyasaachi wrote: I am running the Finolex cables for the power amp for now (which i found better than the Transparent Power Link. Even the EInstein cloned chords from Jochen bettered the Tranparent cable. I have tried a couple of PS audio cables and wasn't too impressed. :L

Amp_Nut, Sachi had compared the Finolex with the Transparent Super power cord, it was not the "Reference" powerlink that you have auditioned or which Switch_It_On has.

opps..yup..it was the super..which btw, is a really good cable in its own right for the price.

Amp_Nut, another power cord which is very well recommended is the Lessloss DFPC. Supposedly it leaves very little signature of its own and lets one hear what its equipment sounds like. I am planning to try this one. Fortunately it is relatively affordable, especially off Audiogon. It also sells very fast so re-sale is not an issue.