Gebrauchter Lautsprecher mit hellem Klang Empfehlung

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Autor
Beitrag
Maximus.MKD
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#1 erstellt: 23. Nov 2022, 03:25
Hallo. Können Sie mir bitte einen hellen Lautsprecher mit +100W RMS Belastbarkeit und gebraucht bis 500 Euro empfehlen. In Bezug auf die Klangsignatur ein Lautsprecher mit tieferen Bässen, nicht zu ausgeprägten Mittenbässen und Tiefmitteltöner, und helle hohe Mitten und hohe Frequenzen. Als Referenz würde ich auf die Soundsignatur von Grundig aus den 70er und frühen 80er Jahren verweisen. Vielen Dank.
Highente
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 24. Nov 2022, 20:31
Du brauchst mind. 2 Lautsprecher.
Prim2357
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 24. Nov 2022, 20:35
Dali Zensor 7
Maximus.MKD
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei
#4 erstellt: 24. Nov 2022, 21:14

Highente (Beitrag #2) schrieb:
Du brauchst mind. 2 Lautsprecher.


Hello. Sorry probably the text didn't got translated properly. Unfortunately my German is still not that good so i used a translator to translate the text to German.

Kind Regards.


Prim2357 (Beitrag #3) schrieb:
Dali Zensor 7


Thank you very much for the suggestion.

Kind Regards.
evilknievel
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 24. Nov 2022, 21:50
Any speaker which has been developed by Joachim Gerhard. Audio Physic (until his deparure and a few years later) or Sonics.
Speakers from Triangle could be another option.

Gruß Evil
Maximus.MKD
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei
#6 erstellt: 24. Nov 2022, 22:45

evilknievel (Beitrag #5) schrieb:
Any speaker which has been developed by Joachim Gerhard. Audio Physic (until his deparure and a few years later) or Sonics.
Speakers from Triangle could be another option.

Gruß Evil


Thank you very much, i have a look. I currently have a Axiom AX 150, designed by Wolfgang Seikritt and his own loudspeaker manufacturing company at that time. The loudspeakers have very good bass but are a bit too warm for my taste. I must use a +6db equalisation from 10kHz to the upper frequencies to add brightness to the sound. I thought maybe to modify the crossover in the midrange and high tones so the loudspeakers have a brighter sound, either that or buying different model of loudspeakers. The AX 150 also have a Magnetostatic tweeter instead of Dome. I don't know if that is an advantage or disadvantage for the high tones reproduction. I thought and also hifi wiki states in the specifications that the loudspeakers have a Ribbon tweeter but it's actually a Magnetostatic which differs from a Ribbon.

The Axiom AX 150

20221115_110938_HDR

The Axiom AX 150 Crossovers
20221118_211742

Kind Regards.
Dr.John
Stammgast
#7 erstellt: 25. Nov 2022, 18:56
Die Dali Spector 6 bekommst du bei HiFi-Klubben gerade im Angebot für 598,- €
Spector 6 bei Kubben

Oder bei ebay aus NL neu für ca 420,- €
Spector 6 aus NL
pogopogo
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 25. Nov 2022, 19:13
Where are you from?
The crossover would have to be revised and the red capacitors are to be replaced as a minimum!
After that they should reproduce properly again
Maximus.MKD
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei
#9 erstellt: 26. Nov 2022, 22:18

Dr.John (Beitrag #7) schrieb:
Die Dali Spector 6 bekommst du bei HiFi-Klubben gerade im Angebot für 598,- €
Spector 6 bei Kubben

Oder bei ebay aus NL neu für ca 420,- €
Spector 6 aus NL


Thank you very much for the suggestion.

Best Regards.



pogopogo (Beitrag #8) schrieb:
Where are you from?
The crossover would have to be revised and the red capacitors are to be replaced as a minimum!
After that they should reproduce properly again ;)


I live in Germany. I don't know if it's worth investing if i change the components with new ones of the same value and i don't notice much improvement. Maybe a modification in the components would be necessary?

I am fairly unfamiliar with the crossovers and still learning about their function. If i understand correctly till what i learned now, smaller value inductors and capacitors with smaller capacitance would result in brighter sound. Is an inductor necessary in the tweeter section, if i understand correctly the inductor cuts the high frequencies?

Also the loudspeaker on the right on the picture doesn't have the original midrange driver, the original driver is 8 ohms and the one i currently have as a replacement is 6 ohms from the Arcus 500/600b loudspeakers. The inductors plastic for the midrange that was burned/replaced is melted and the resistor right next to it has a visible burn spot on the crossover board as it can be seen on the pictures. The other loudspeaker have the original driver and doesn't have any visible damage on the crossover.

I searched for the same driver but didn't find the equivalent driver so far. It's not completely visible on the sticker on the back but probably the complete number is 2504 632. The Braun SM 1003/1 have the same midrange driver. There are a pair currently listed for sale but the price is too high. Anybody have a replacement or maybe can repair the defective driver? The coil would need to be rewired.

The AX 150 original defective midrange driver

20221118_212256

20221118_212344

The AX 150 crossovers

20221118_211742

20221118_211847

20221118_214244

20221118_214029

20221118_213915

20221118_213830

20221118_213804

20221118_213741

20221118_213631_(1)

20221118_213551

20221118_213528

Kind Regards.


[Beitrag von Maximus.MKD am 26. Nov 2022, 22:29 bearbeitet]
pogopogo
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 27. Nov 2022, 10:33
Talk to Tuned Systems in Frankfurt. They might be able to repair the defect midrange driver for a small amount of money. In any case, the crossover should be tested and revised. This company also does that.
Seimalanders
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 27. Nov 2022, 10:54

pogopogo (Beitrag #8) schrieb:
The crossover would have to be revised and the red capacitors are to be replaced as a minimum!
After that they should reproduce properly again ;)


Once again, a very rash comment.
The electrolytic capacitors are not responsible for the high frequency range. That is done by the long-life MKTs (yellow).
Replacing the electrolytic capacitors, especially if untested, would be a waste of money.
pogopogo
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 27. Nov 2022, 11:42
For which frequency range, which capacitors are responsible, I had not written at all
Tuned Systems is just a tip from me and they can also take into account your preferences.
From experience, the electrolytic ones are mostly outside the spec.
The MKTs should also be examined more closely, since a housing crack can also occur at the connecting legs and these can then also change their electrical characteristics over time.
However, this happens very rarely.
ehemals_Mwf
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 28. Nov 2022, 23:27
Hi,

@Maximus.MKD
Mr. Seikritt surely did not design dull sounding speakers.
I had known him personally, the AX 150 was the top of the line model in his short-living Axiom brand, you have a true rarity ...


(Beitrag #6) schrieb:
... I must use a +6db equalisation from 10kHz to the upper frequencies to add brightness to the sound. I thought maybe to modify the crossover in the midrange and high tones so the loudspeakers have a brighter sound, either that or buying different model of loudspeakers. The AX 150 also have a Magnetostatic tweeter instead of Dome...



... The inductors plastic for the midrange that was burned/replaced is melted and the resistor right next to it has a visible burn spot on the crossover board as it can be seen ...


Both Infos combined gives the picture of heavy overload conditions for the AX 150 in the past,
additionally the experience of the resp. service dept. at Elac company which I was part of.

Magnetostatic tweeters are very sensitive for this and HF-instability of amplifiers, see the stories for same /similar Quadral speaker models of the time (80s) with parts from Matsushita (Technics, Panasonic):
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-30-2404.html

In case of defective Tweeters it makes no sense
-- to learn about and change the tweeter level on the crossover. (I like to and have all experience to help but not before the tweeter is checked for example by comparison with other /intact Tweeters)

-- to look for other speakers with especially bright sound
(first you have to establish a kind of "reference", tweeter and sound-wise)

I agree with pogopogo a.o.:
In any case you should change the 3 electrolytic caps 82, 10 and 6.8 µF by bipolar types with 100 V-:
https://www.lautspre...lytkondensatoren.htm
(82 = 68+15 or 47+33 µF in parallel)
The types used in your X-over ("Elko glatt") are widely known for serious detoriation over the years despite intact looking.
The exchange is cheap and easy and helpful in finding the source of your problem even if they are not used in the tweeter circuit.

The caps in the tweeter circuit (2 yellow, 1 black) should be checked by a capacitance meter before any further action.


[Beitrag von ehemals_Mwf am 28. Nov 2022, 23:49 bearbeitet]
Maximus.MKD
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei
#14 erstellt: 03. Dez 2022, 19:31
@Mwf

Hello. Thank you very much for the reply.

The tweeters on the AX 150 seem to work properly. I used frequency generator to test and the loudspeakers output properly all across the spectrum. I compare them with the Grundig 650b. The tweeters on the AX 150 play just as good as the 650b but are much quieter compared to the complete sound of the loudspeakers. So i would like to increase the output of the tweeter on the AX 150 so the loudspeakers can give overall a more bright sound. For this probably some modification to the components of the tweeter section would need to be done. Since i don't have much knowledge in how the crossovers work i'm not sure what exactly to change. Maybe exchanging some of the capacitors with ones with smaller capacitance or exchanging the resistors with smaller resistance/wattage? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Here are also some photos of the crossovers of the 650b.

1

IMG_20191106_042930

Also i should repair the defective midrange, and if i can get to increase the output of the tweeter, than i can measure and completely renew the components on the crossovers.

I would also like to ask if anybody can further recommend some bright sounding loudspeakers? How about the vintage Cantons, GLE100, Quinto 540 or newer models, or vintage Hecos like the Superior 700, 800, PCX, Precision and other vintage or newer series?

Kind Regards.
ehemals_Mwf
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 03. Dez 2022, 21:23

Maximus.MKD (Beitrag #14) schrieb:
... The tweeters on the AX 150 seem to work properly. I used frequency generator to test and the loudspeakers output properly all across the spectrum. I compare them with the Grundig 650b. The tweeters on the AX 150 play just as good as the 650b but are much quieter compared to the complete sound of the loudspeakers ...

You note that the AX 150 is nominally 8 Ohms, the Grundig is 4 Ohms, so
-- all other (Efficiency) being equal --
the AX will produce 3 dB less SPL when the amplifier gain is same when switching between both.


... So i would like to increase the output of the tweeter on the AX 150 so the loudspeakers can give overall a more bright sound ...

o.K.
If
-- the magnetostatic tweeters are o.K.

-- the 3 electrolytic caps in bass and midrange circuits are replaced (see details above)

-- new listening tests with fresh electrolytics confirm your desire for more HF

I will give you proposals for modification.

This is possible because your detailed (and sharp ) pics from both sides of the X-over PCBs allowed me to re-construct the AX 150 circuit.
A rough sketch from it I will post here later.
Maximus.MKD
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei
#16 erstellt: 03. Dez 2022, 21:42

Mwf (Beitrag #15) schrieb:

Maximus.MKD (Beitrag #14) schrieb:
... The tweeters on the AX 150 seem to work properly. I used frequency generator to test and the loudspeakers output properly all across the spectrum. I compare them with the Grundig 650b. The tweeters on the AX 150 play just as good as the 650b but are much quieter compared to the complete sound of the loudspeakers ...

You note that the AX 150 is nominally 8 Ohms, the Grundig is 4 Ohms, so
-- all other (Efficiency) being equal --
the AX will produce 3 dB less SPL when the amplifier gain is same when switching between both.


... So i would like to increase the output of the tweeter on the AX 150 so the loudspeakers can give overall a more bright sound ...

o.K.
If
-- the magnetostatic tweeters are o.K.

-- the 3 electrolytic caps in bass and midrange circuits are replaced (see details above)

-- new listening tests with fresh electrolytics confirm your desire for more HF

I will give you proposals for modification.

This is possible because your detailed (and sharp ) pics from both sides of the X-over PCBs allowed me to re-construct the AX 150 circuit.
A rough sketch from it I will post here later.


The data on hifi-wiki is not correct. The AX 150 are actually 6 ohms.

20221115_111858

I measured the resistance on the input terminals. Both louthspeakers show 6.8 ohms.


[Beitrag von Maximus.MKD am 03. Dez 2022, 22:03 bearbeitet]
ehemals_Mwf
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 04. Dez 2022, 02:55

Maximus.MKD (Beitrag #16) schrieb:
... The data on hifi-wiki is not correct. The AX 150 are actually 6 ohms ...

That would reduce the theoretical difference from 3 to 2 - 1.5 dB.

... I measured the resistance on the input terminals. Both louthspeakers show 6.8 ohms. ...

That is a DC (0 Hz)-Value and is typical for nominal 8 Ohm systems (AC, audio, nominal value, typ. 20% higher than DC).
But the system possibly drops to lower values at mid and/or high frequencies because of X-over influence and Mr. Seikritt decided to call it a 6 Ohm system.


--------------------------------
As we are just putting some things right, I like to correct my hurried statement above:
Mwf (Beitrag #13) schrieb:
Both Infos combined gives the picture of heavy overload conditions for the AX 150 in the past, ...

Your picture shows the damage to the dome midrange driver seems to be purely mechanical
-- wire on one side completely broken off --,
and no electrical overload.

Following the open circuit (no load) for the midrange circuit its lowpass components (inductor, resistor + 6.8 µF cap) mutate to a notch filter, which, when the system was driven further without noticing or ignoring the broken Midrange, overheats slightly because of the not intended use. The damage shown is not critical and needs no further action (except the new 6.8 µF cap )

------------------
You can reduce the error of the replacement 6 for original 8 Ohms-Midrange (higher sensistivity, but more damping of X-over-circuits)
by putting (soldering) ~1.0 Ohm /3 - 5 W directly in series with the 6 ohm driver.

----------------------
The origin of the replacement 50 mm dome could be Acron (500, 600B), not Arcus.
Acron was the company led by another Braun-Expatriate: Franz Petrik ...


[Beitrag von ehemals_Mwf am 04. Dez 2022, 03:11 bearbeitet]
Maximus.MKD
Schaut ab und zu mal vorbei
#18 erstellt: 16. Dez 2022, 17:29

Mwf (Beitrag #17) schrieb:

Maximus.MKD (Beitrag #16) schrieb:
... The data on hifi-wiki is not correct. The AX 150 are actually 6 ohms ...

That would reduce the theoretical difference from 3 to 2 - 1.5 dB.

... I measured the resistance on the input terminals. Both louthspeakers show 6.8 ohms. ...

That is a DC (0 Hz)-Value and is typical for nominal 8 Ohm systems (AC, audio, nominal value, typ. 20% higher than DC).
But the system possibly drops to lower values at mid and/or high frequencies because of X-over influence and Mr. Seikritt decided to call it a 6 Ohm system.


--------------------------------
As we are just putting some things right, I like to correct my hurried statement above:
Mwf (Beitrag #13) schrieb:
Both Infos combined gives the picture of heavy overload conditions for the AX 150 in the past, ...

Your picture shows the damage to the dome midrange driver seems to be purely mechanical
-- wire on one side completely broken off --,
and no electrical overload.

Following the open circuit (no load) for the midrange circuit its lowpass components (inductor, resistor + 6.8 µF cap) mutate to a notch filter, which, when the system was driven further without noticing or ignoring the broken Midrange, overheats slightly because of the not intended use. The damage shown is not critical and needs no further action (except the new 6.8 µF cap )

------------------
You can reduce the error of the replacement 6 for original 8 Ohms-Midrange (higher sensistivity, but more damping of X-over-circuits)
by putting (soldering) ~1.0 Ohm /3 - 5 W directly in series with the 6 ohm driver.

----------------------
The origin of the replacement 50 mm dome could be Acron (500, 600B), not Arcus.
Acron was the company led by another Braun-Expatriate: Franz Petrik ... :)


I have measured the components, the capacitors and the resistors. Here are some pictures:

0.68uF 10% 100V

1

4.7uF 5% 100V

2

3.9uF 5% 100V

3

6.8uF 63V

4

10uF 60V

5

82uF 40V

6

2 x 1.5 Ohms 5% Resistors in Parallel

7

1.5 Ohms 5% and 1.2 Ohms 10% Resistors in Series

9

68 Ohms 5% Resistor

8

33 Ohms 5% Resistor

10

68 Ohms 5% Resistor

11

The 6.8uF capacitor for the midrange driver and the 82uF capacitor for the bass driver seem to be a bit out of spec. The other components seem to be fine.

I don't know if changing the capacitors with same value ones would result in improvement in sound on the AX 150. Previously i have recapped a pair of Canton CT 100 loudspeakers i owned, i didn't liked the sound, too much mid-bass, not enough detail and brightness in sound either before nor after the recap. I recapped all of the electrolytics with Mundorf film capacitors.

Maybe some modification of the tweeter section on the AX 150 would be necessary so it can result in brighter sound all across the spectrum of the tweeter.

Would the Magnetostatic tweeter give the same detail and brightness in sound as a Dome tweeter?

Would also replacing the resistors with new ones result in any improvement in sound?

Taking all of this in consideration is it worth investing in changing the components and modifying or leave the loudspeakers as is and looking for another model of loudspeakers instead?

About the replacement midrange, yes, the driver is from Acron loudspeakers not Arcus. I would like to ask about the placement of the 1 Ohm resistor you have suggested. Should i connect the resistor directly on the + and - terminals of the midrange on the crossover?

Thanks.


[Beitrag von Maximus.MKD am 16. Dez 2022, 22:12 bearbeitet]
ehemals_Mwf
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 17. Dez 2022, 17:58

Maximus.MKD (Beitrag #18) schrieb:
...I have measured the components, the capacitors and the resistors.
...
The 6.8uF capacitor for the midrange driver and the 82uF capacitor for the bass driver seem to be a bit out of spec. The other components seem to be fine.

Thanks for the unmistakable measurements.

Anyway, Electrolytic capacitors generally have properties that make the results from simple MMs questionable
(DC or AC ?, which frequency ?).
So, after 40 yrs. without any re-freshing with +/-DC, regardless of MM-measurements, as costs and work is low,
please renew all 3:
82, 10 and 6.8 µF with bipolar 100 V-, for example from here:
https://www.lautspre...lytkondensatoren.htm
(82 = 68+15 or 47+33 µF parallel)

... I don't know if changing the capacitors with same value ones would result in improvement in sound on the AX 150. Previously i have recapped a pair of Canton CT 100 loudspeakers i owned, i didn't liked the sound, too much mid-bass, not enough detail and brightness in sound either before nor after the recap. I recapped all of the electrolytics with Mundorf film capacitors.

Without acoustic measurements of the speakers in question, neither now or from reports long ago,
it is difficult to see what your real problem is.
I know that larger speakers from Germany as Axiom AX 150 or Canton CT 100 are surely designed for free standing within the room (distances say >= 0.7 m from all walls, except floor; Axiom on small stands/podest).
If your conditions are different the chance is high that they all have too much mid bass and a search for bright sounding speakers of this origin is not easy, as everybody critized especially german speakers from 70s - 90s for sounding too cold /bright ("Taunus sound").

Possibly speakers from France are more your direction: Cabasse, Triangle, ...

But here is the circuit:
Circuit Axiom AX 150
(the important polarity +/- of the drivers is still missing, please give info )

The tweeter high pass is 4th order with some additions.
In oder to increase the tweeter level two changes are quite easy to do:
-- short circuit or re-place the parallel resistors 2 x 1.5 Ohm in series with 3.9 µF with a short wire
(this should give "broadband" up to +1.5 dB from ~6 kHz upwards)

-- cut completely the circuit of 33 Ohm + 0.68 µF parallel to the tweeter (one of both is sufficient)
(this will give another +1 to +2 dB (?) above ~10 kHz; these 2 components fine tune /damp the uppermost
-- for many listeners: supersonic -- frequencies)

-- increasing the first tweeter-C from original 3.9 µF to 4.7 µF (same as the second one) will increase lower treble (ca. 3 - 8 kHz) up to 2 dB (in addition to the changes above).
Film caps >=100V- are the choice here:
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/audaphon_mkt_kondensator.htm
but you can use the "free" yellow 0.68 µF from above and put it in parallel with the 3.9 µF (= 4.58) so no new components are necessary for checking the direction of change

Another source for strong midbass /lower mids (and possibly low impedance there) seems to be the 82 µF parallel to the woofer.
I would replace it by something between 68 or even 47 µF, and reduce the series resistors (1.5 + 1.2 = 2.7 ohms) slightly by reducing 1.2 to 0.68 Ohm or even leaving /shorting this one completely so the result is 2.2 to 1.5 Ohm.
Simple ceramic wirewound Resistors of 5 Watt are near perfect for the purpose.
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/widerstand.htm#keramik


... About the replacement midrange, yes, the driver is from Acron loudspeakers not Arcus. I would like to ask about the placement of the 1 Ohm resistor you have suggested. Should i connect the resistor directly on the + and - terminals of the midrange on the crossover? ...

Either way, it does not matter (series connection).


[Beitrag von ehemals_Mwf am 18. Dez 2022, 04:29 bearbeitet]
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