Dynaudio Confidence C5 & Cadence Canasya Mono's

Hey , good mini review satyam. sure is nice to have a first hand consumer review of the canasya !

Also the Dyns are very misunnderstood speakers. they may have a low impedence, but they usually have the impedence changing gradually and they do not have any phase nasties.. hence they are Not as difficult to drive as their Specs seem to imply !

For a Dyn C4, the impedance curve, from the soundstage network is


The Phase curve is


So at around 60-70 hz we see a sudden drop in impedance as well as a phase change.. and this is the region where you need an amp which can take a 3 Ohm load (very few will not be able to.. ) I am not sure, but appears it may need more current then due to the phase (Can someone corroborate that ?)

else it seems to be an easy load..

Hi Arj,

Good point about the Imp curve of the C4 but I can’t seem to find one for the C5. As for the phase shift the ultimate test is the Conciquence wish someone had it in this side of the world so I could listen to it.

The owner used to own a pair of Bryston MONO's 600WPC for the C5 and he says they always ran out of steam with extremely un-involving sound, we also tried a Nad Silverline integrated and the poor thing just gave up.

I would love to try to run the jadis but the owner would shoot me if it clipped and blew a driver so I'll refrain from that


Regards,

Satyam.

Arj,

Actually the impedance is <=4 ohms, befow 200Hz. You need an amp with high "current" reserve to wrestle these speakers and control them in lower frequency spectrum.

BTW what is the rated sensitivity of these speakers..

Amps like Plinius SA-102/SA-250 might do the trick..

Cheers
Siva.

Hi,

The C5 is the discontinued speaker from the Confidence line its got a 10-inch woofer dual concentric isobaric, its got a sensivity of 86-85DB, I think I should have the curve of it somewhere on my comp asa I find it I will post it.


Regards,

Satyam.

sivat schrieb:

Arj, Amps like Plinius SA-102/SA-250 might do the trick.. Cheers Siva.

I have heard the C5 with a SA-250 too, it drives it decently well but.....

I am not very technically sound on this, bbut based on my understanding,
Is not 4 Ohms a load MOST amps would be handle ? Even if does not double its 8 Ohm power. In fact most "Good" amps should even be able to handle dynamic power upto around a 3 Ohms load(As long as the Phase nasties are in control).. I know for sure that Martin Logans have been driven by the Sugden A21 in reasonable rooms..and thzy can go down to sudden 2 ohm region dips (I guess only the Apogees have the killing 1 Ohm drop)

From the specs of the Canasya, I get the following
Output Impedance 4-8 Ohms
Output power 200W rms. @ 6 Ohms

200 at 6 means it should give around 150 or more at 8 and AT least 100 at 4 I am sure it is not going to drop further.

Since this power is RMS, this should OK .

100 W is more than enough for a 85db Speaker in a medium to large room

Also even if the impedance rating is below 3.5 I sincerely doubt if the amp is going to be sucked dry so soon !( or else the specs would need to be taken with a pich of salt)

Even If I only look at the specs of the Canasya, it is not a usual low powered Amp.. it is a mean powerful Tube amp perhaps on the Wavac/Lamm/mcintosh lines at a lower price. and no reason why it should not drive a moderately difficult speaker like the Dynaudio.

What i would like to see it drive would be the ATC speakers !!!


Satyam, the only negetive I have heard about these amps is in the Quality/Finish department. Could you comment on that also as i do not think I am going to get a chance to see them.

The graphics in the Cadence site is not very flattering to any of their models hence do not want to go by that

Arj schrieb:

Satyam, the only negetive I have heard about these amps is in the Quality/Finish department. Could you comment on that also as i do not think I am going to get a chance to see them. The graphics in the Cadence site is not very flattering to any of their models hence do not want to go by that

Arj,

I have been looking at the canasya's from a long time and before pulling the trigger made sure I would get total support from cadence incase something went wrong.

They look stunning in person as for the quality it is top notch the packing also was very impressive right up there with other world class manufactures, though there is one flaw that I have noticed that is the meter on amp which shows the reading is not correctly calibrated, on the SQ side though there are no faults plays like no other tube amp I have heard yet.

I will give better feedback on the performance in a month’s time; I'm waiting for other 845 tubes also to see how things change.

Any change from here is going to be sideways for me on the amp end.

Regards,

Satyam.

PS: Any one have RCA 845's for me?

Satyam-jee

Congratulations on the new acquisitions.
Your Canasya runs those 845’s in Parallel Push Pull or Parallel SE?
Eaither way 200 wpc is quite feasible.

I run 845 in SE with 1,200 V DC on the plate and a load of 11,000 ohms getting approx 24 watts before clipping. I am getting a new output transformer with a 7,000-ohm primary load. Simulations propose that load will produce least amount of THD.

I last bought RCA 845's in 1995 for around Rs. 500/each.

screamgigi schrieb:

Satyam-jee I last bought RCA 845's in 1995 for around Rs. 500/each.

I'll buy all you've got at that price, any chance you have a bunch of them you are not using?

As for the Amp it runs in P-PP triode mode sir.

Regards,

Satyam

sbfx schrieb:

I'll buy all you've got at that price, any chance you have a bunch of them you are not using? :D

I will find out. I have just 2 as spare.

845’s are very hardy tubes. One spare set should outlast you. I have close to 5000 hrs on my 845 and they test almost 90%. And I drive them quite hard at 1.2kv.

Satyam-jee I am sure you know this, but just as a note of caution be very careful if you decide to poke inside the chassis. You will be amazed how quickly HV arches over. Death is so permanent. Keep you amp in such a place that kids and pets are well away.

Enjoy your 845 ! This is one grunty stuff that can take the pants away from new SS amps

sbfx schrieb:

Hi, The C5 is the discontinued speaker from the Confidence line its got a 10-inch woofer dual concentric isobaric, its got a sensivity of 86-85DB, I think I should have the curve of it somewhere on my comp asa I find it I will post it. Satyam.

The Dynaudio Confidence 5's have 2 woofers;

Driver Complement:
28mm Soft Dome, state-of-the-art, custom version ESOTAR Tweeter with Magnaflux-damped, pure aluminum wire voice coil.

52mm Soft Dome, state-of-the-art, custom version ESOTAR Midrange with Magnaflux-damped, pure aluminum wire voice coil.

20cm Magnesium Silicate Polymer (MSP) one-piece cone Woofer with100mm pure aluminum wire voice coil and dual-magnet system. Die cast basket. Compound loaded by internally mounted (1) 17cm MSP Woofer with 75mm pure aluminum wire voice coil and dual-magnet system.

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m):
86 dB

Impedance (Nominal):
4 ohms

Impedance (20-200Hz):
4.6 - 9.2 ohms

Impedance (200-20kHz):
5.0 - 7.7 ohms

Impedance HF (200kHz):
5.4 ohms

Phase Shift (20-200Hz):
-19.6º - +18.7º

Phase Shift (200-20kHz):
-5.1º - +15.1º

Frequency Response (+/- 3 dB):
43 Hz - 21 kHz

IEC Long Term Power Handling:
> 250 Watts

Crossover Frequencies (Three-way):
1080Hz/4kHz - 6dB

Dimensions (W x H x L):
8.2" x 47" x 14.8"

Weight:
90 lbs. each

Internal Cabinet Volume:
20 + 22 liters

Bass Principle and Resonance:
Compound / 43 Hz

I do hope these facts are of some use;;;;

Regards,

BHAGWAN69

sbfx schrieb:

, I have heard the C5 with a SA-250 too, it drives it decently well but.....

How many amplifiers have you heard this [Dynaudio C-5] speaker with ?

Canasya + Plinius + Bryston ??? [any more ??]

You surely must be a very well travelled person, the Dynaudio C-5's may not be many in our country [I Presume] !!!

Regards,

BHAGWAN69

P.S. I would like to listen to your Merlin with the Cansaya !!! If that is possible some time.........
Do you have the pre amplifier [Cadence] that is made to go with the Canasya ?

I think there are a pair of used C5's on sale in the AV max mag for the last 3 months...or are they C5's ?

the exact model number eludes me.

manek.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

sbfx schrieb: , I have heard the C5 with a SA-250 too, it drives it decently well but..... How many amplifiers have you heard this [Dynaudio C-5] speaker with ? Canasya + Plinius + Bryston ??? [any more ??] You surely must be a very well travelled person, the Dynaudio C-5's may not be many in our country [I Presume] !!! Regards, BHAGWAN69 P.S. I would like to listen to your Merlin with the Cansaya !!! If that is possible some time......... Do you have the pre amplifier [Cadence] that is made to go with the Canasya ?

Check your PM, as for the C5's I have heard it with only the setups I have mentioned here.


Regards,

Satyam.

Arj schrieb:

I am not very technically sound on this, bbut based on my understanding, Is not 4 Ohms a load MOST amps would be handle ? Even if does not double its 8 Ohm power. In fact most "Good" amps should even be able to handle dynamic power upto around a 3 Ohms load(As long as the Phase nasties are in control).. I know for sure that Martin Logans have been driven by the Sugden A21 in reasonable rooms..and thzy can go down to sudden 2 ohm region dips (I guess only the Apogees have the killing 1 Ohm drop)

Hi Arj,

Good point.

The answer is very simple. As the impedance drops, higher is the current drawn from the amp. The question is - how effectively the amp manages this increase in load?. This effectiveness comes at a cost. Just because the amp is not blowing its fuse, it does not mean it is really effective.

Amps that are the worst example of this, muddles the bass and the best amp handles the load without any difficulty.Every component's current rating...the transformers, the power supply circuit and the power mosfets/transistors, play a key role in this matter.

Check out the following as well..

http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/mdampingfactor.html


To take from my own experience, this is one of the key areas where the Plinus SA-102 beats the MF A3 CR power amp.

Cheers
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

The answer is very simple. As the impedance drops, higher is the current drawn from the amp.

Yes, but it's not just that.

A speaker is a very complex LCR load. It is not a simple variable resistor connected to the output which varies its resistance. If that were true our lives would be a lot simpler.

Because it's a reactive load, It always dumps energy back to the output stage, and the output stage has to sink it as well as supply the current/voltage for the next instant the power is needed.

At any given instant, the amp has to deal with three voltage effects.

1. The instantaneous value of the signal at the input

2. The value of the voltage at the output (=Vin x gain) and its value compared to the input (measured by feedback)

3. The energy being dumped back from the output (which is from the previous cycle or a couple of cycles back, depending on how well the crossover is constructed and the total reactance of the speaker system).

If the amp cannot sink the flyback voltage, it will be dumped into the inductors in the crossover, some portion will be lost as heat in the speaker cable, but the bulk of it will remain where it is - inside the speaker. Then the amp's voltage output comes in, but the speaker is stranded, poor guy has nowhere to go, by virtue of trying to get rid of the energy accumulated in the last cycle. Result - distortion.

A complex load and a low impedance load are two completely different things. The Dynes are known to be difficult loads, but not notoriously bad. Actually the impedance curves presented here are very benign compared to some real temperamental audiophile speakers. I would suspect these Dynes are in fact, moderate loads which can mate to a wider variety of electronics than the older serie.

Damping factor is a highly overrated spec. It is possible to make an amp with a huge damping factor, but it will not be the 'Ultimate Amplifier' by any stretch of imagination.

As usual it is never the spec that will tell you the whole story. If I had to mate the dynes to an amp, I would select one with high current rating - about 15-20 amperes per channel would still mean an electrical power of about 75 watts into the speakers. You may never need more than half that much, if you play it at sensible volumes, and about 10 watts of electrical power requires only 5.5 amps, and results in what - 89 dB listening level? Which is not too shabby...

wow .. the above was mindblowing info

Arj schrieb:

wow .. the above was mindblowing info ________ ....But in the end, its all about Music

Exactly. It is about the music. Nothing else means that much.

I'm sorry if that came out complicated...

Wow Eric ! That was some real good info. Thanks.
Btw: what is baffle step correction in speakers? What do baffle step compensation circuits do ?
I know this is off topic. But I thought I 'll catch you while you are at it..

square_wave schrieb:

Wow Eric ! That was some real good info. Thanks. Btw: what is baffle step correction in speakers? What do baffle step compensation circuits do ? I know this is off topic. But I thought I 'll catch you while you are at it.. :)

It's a very simple phenomenon. Basically the response of any speaker system depends on the baffle width in relationship to the frequency of the produced sound. So as the baffle gets wider, the speaker output rises.

At low frequencies there is no problem, but the system exhibits a rising response curve (because at high frequenies even the tweeter's flange becomes a baffle for the sound, let alone the speaker baffle) that needs to be adjusted for. This is not as simple as putting an L-pad on the tweeter, but not a very complex mechanism to understand.

http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm

Rod Elliot has a nice explanation and a small practical circuit, as well as further reading references. The only problem is that it's very complex to implement, and without a thorough understanding of your speakers' response in your room, it's tough to do it correctly.

Sorry for the OT....

Thanks Eric.

eric_clapton schrieb:

At low frequencies there is no problem

Just one small correction.

Due to the smaller wavelenght of higher frequency, they tend to have directional characteritics and they radiate in the the space between the listener and the baffle. Due to the increased wavelength of the low frequency, they tend to radiate in all direction including the area behind the baffle.

Without getting into the theory, we can saftely assume for the moment that the frequency that radiates in all direction will be 6 db lower in intensity than the frequency that radiates only in front of the baffle.

Hence, the resultant frequency chart will have a dip in the lower frequency spectrum. Please note this is not a natural inrease in high frequency..

The term "baffle step" refers to the gradual move from 0 to -6db from high to low frequency.

Exactly from which frequency the dip will start is dependendant on the "smaller" dimension of the baffle. For most speakes this is the width of the baffle, but in some cases like Center-Speaker, it is the height. Once you calculate this you can design your compensation circuit...

Cheers
Siva.

Thanks siva.. Is this compensation circuit built into most crossover circuits of hi-end speakers? Based on this calculation, does the circuit attenuate certain frequencies so that the listener gets to hear a balanced frequency response ? Like most things, is there a work around to this problem at the design stage of the cabinet itself ? Or is there bigger problems that gets more priority at certain budget points ? Just curious.

sivat schrieb:

<snip> Please note this is not a natural inrease in high frequency.. The term "baffle step" refers to the gradual move from 0 to -6db from high to low frequency. <snip>

Yes, and also it's called a step because the response looks like one rather than a single straight rising line. The frequency of the step can be calculated using the equations in the link I presented.

Though speakers should seem to have Baffle step correction built in as that is a normal effect, the reason it is not done is that the power losses are very large, so it's better done at line level and not in the speaker crossover.

The second issue is that this baffle is not just the physical baffle, once we get into the listening environment we have to deal with room response (which adds some gain at LF) and other effects, so it needs to be adjusted for the final listening situation.

I sense an opportunity for someone making a nice Baffle step circuit for commercial sale. But now, we're totally OT.

eric_clapton schrieb:

>>>>>> about 15-20 amperes per channel would still mean an electrical power of about 75 watts into the speakers. >>>> >>>>>>about 10 watts of electrical power requires only 5.5 amps >>>>>

A good reason to have Speakers rated at 15ohms and keep the lead wire to them as short as possible. QUADII monoblocks and vintage Altecs come to mind

Eric,

How did you come up/calculate these numbers?

"about 15-20 amperes per channel would still mean an electrical power of about 75 watts into the speakers."

and

"...and about 10 watts of electrical power requires only 5.5 amps,..."

I suppose the watts you are talking about are RMS watts, correct?

Square_Wave,

Let's go to Diffaraction Loss, chapter 2

Yes, the problem is bigger and unfortunately , there is no a straight forward solution and it is very diffcult to fully compensate this effect...for the following reasons

1) Assume a "Curve" in the frequency response chart that will indicate the gradual move from -6db to 0db (low to high frequency). This curve will be "Smooth" in an ideal case where the loudspeaker enclosure is a perfect "Sphere" designed for the particular driver.

2) However, in most cases we are NOT going to get a smooth curve. There are various factors that cause "ripples" in this curve

-> Different enclosure types (cyclinder, cube, rectangular) cause different patterns of ripples
-> Flush mounting of the drivers can minimize ripples
-> Placing the drivers at different distances from the two adjoing edges will change this ripple patter..

(Its difficult for me to explain, unless i show you some measurement charts)

3) Since a electric circuit cannot take into consideration, these ripples...you might not get your result with a simple/theoritical circuits..

So the preferred solution is to

-> Look into the baffle design & driver placement to minimise these ripples.
-> Have a simple circuit that will tone-down (attenuate) the high frequency. (please note that the ripples in low freqneucy is still existings and above metioned baffle design only takes care of it to only some extent). You can have this circuit - either at line-level (most prefer this) or even inside the loudspeaker.

Finally..it all depends on the skill of the speaker designer. Some hi-end speakers do come with compensation circuit, but not all (they just play around with baffle to get the most optimal pattern)

I hope i was able to explain this effect.

Cheers
Siva.

Thanks siva. That was informative.
I guess all these unpredictable variables makes speaker design a mixture of art and science. I remember the chief designer for mission loud speakers saying that speaker design is a "BLACK ART" in some british magazine long back.

bombaywalla schrieb:

Eric, How did you come up/calculate these numbers? "about 15-20 amperes per channel would still mean an electrical power of about 75 watts into the speakers." and "...and about 10 watts of electrical power requires only 5.5 amps,..." I suppose the watts you are talking about are RMS watts, correct?

Not really, they are DC power figures, so it's kind of simplified but I use it as a thumb rule for basic PS calculations. This is a theoretical framework only, and not a very solid one. In real life we can get away with lots less current, but the implications are more complex as far as impedance curves go. Which is a different subject altogether.

Let's say you have a 3 ohm speaker, which is the lowest possible impedance for the Dynes we see here.

Current = square root of (Power x impedance). At 75 watts that's 15 amps, for a 3 ohm speaker. And so on.

The equations are simple. Power = Voltage x current. Volatge = Current x resistance. These two will give you whatever you need for basic calculations.

Edit: I HATE TYPOS!!! Sorry if anyone noticed.

sivat schrieb:

Square_Wave, Let's go to Diffaraction Loss, chapter 2

Super info. I think this one goes into my favorites for the best explanation and approach to BSC.

sivat schrieb:

Square_Wave, Let's go to Diffaraction Loss, chapter 2

By the way siva, care to talk about how a 2.5 way system tackles this problem elegantly? I love your writing!

If we are going too much OT, will a mod separate this into a new thread on Baffle step compensation? Thanks.