Top ten lies in Audio

wonderful read...thanks for posting it Arj!

nice one..

a really good knowledgable article......keep up the good work...

There are no absolutes in life and the same goes for audio, I think more than half the things in the article are BS.

1.DIGITAL as good as ANALOG the guy has LOST IT, a half decent TT would smash most ref CD-Players and if one goes north on spending on TT's then you can just forget digital EVER bettering Analog.


2.Cables - I hear it and many others I know hear it.

3.Negitive Feedback - Ever heard a David Berning amp with negative feedback? for that matter some of the designs by Mr. Nelson Pass?? The Aleph, Zen....??!?!?!!

4.Burn-in is not BS almost components take some time to sound right caps take time to charge.


Satyam

sbfx schrieb:

There are no absolutes in life and the same goes for audio, I think more than half the things in the article are BS. Satyam

Take it easy buddy.. just an article by someone with a different point of view !

subjective opinions are always different. I myself do not agree that measurements can give everything, but the fact remains that there is a lot of myths in audio as well. hence the importance of
1. Forming ones own opinions based on ones preferences & experiences
2. Awareness on Keeping an open mind since all of us are prone to biases

Classical example is the SET amp..technically will measure a really bad THD, but IMHO brings more immediacy into music than most SS.(But there are people who differ on this as have had their own experiences)

In the end the Hifi Setup is not a scientific object which gives perfect measurement , but an instrument to give us musical pleasure and for that subjective and unmeasurable emotional aspects are important as well (The Psychoacoustics) But it can always help if we can see how much measurements can help as well . right ?

Regarding his point on TTs , there are interesting points on the quality of recordings. There is a co (By a person called Kavi Alexander, of Indian origin) called the Water lilly recordings.. most people praise it as being better recordings than LPs (I am talking of Harbeth Users here)



Cheers

Those who purely go by measurement MUST read about the Richard Heyser Box which gives perfect measurements for standard tests but wsounds horrible with Music ( try googling for that)

also an interesting article here
http://www.livesoundint.com/archives/2001/septoct/view2/view2.php

Dear ARJ

Thanks for referring a good article. I personally agree with all that's said in it. And these are not any new views or facts. These have been mentioned at various places in various articles. This articles just puts them all together very dramatically and confronts some of the manufacturers of audio equipment.

The moral of the story is believe your ears only.

Regards

Sanjay

Arj,

Sure there are great CD rec's infact if you get a chance listen to some rec;s from Pope Music have a go. I was shocked when I heard it but by no means can one can claim CD is better.

Aint never gonna happen, therefore you see sony and philips release new formats like SACD and DVD-A and claim they finally are able to better analog(I though they claimed that with CD's!!!).

Regards,

Satyam.

I think Peter Aczel (The Author) auditions his equipment on the test bench with multi-meter's and capacitor meters and has never actually heard music.


Satyam.

[quote]Regarding his point on TTs , there are interesting points on the quality of recordings. There is a co (By a person called Kavi Alexander, of Indian origin) called the Water lilly recordings.. most people praise it as being better recordings than LPs (I am talking of Harbeth Users here)
[/quote]

I have the entire collection of Waterlilly Acoustics CD's.
I like the work that Kavi has done. However, only 4 of his CD's are worth the mention. Architecture + Meeting by the River + Burban & Rose Water + Tabularasa.

The rest of his music is rather poorply recodred. Blumeline Technics and what have you.

I also have 56 CD's from Todd Garfunkle's famous MA Recordings. Some of them are great recordings, but most are very very average.

Even Pope Music [Gene Pope III] who spends 18 months on a single recording, a lot of great gear is used [I do not want to get into his equipment list etc.] but the end result is what matters. Some of the work is great & other is average at best.

To make a point [try to];

CD is good - very very convenient.
Potential has not been exploited to its maximum.
SACD Sucks - money making racket by Sony & Phillips.
DVD-A will never take off - the 'consortium' that is promoting it is not 'flush with funds'. However, a better medium by a mile.
Analogue is good - very very satisfiying - at the expense of loss in detail [I am sorry Sbfx]. Sounds very very 'rosy' & 'warm' in the mid-band, but there is a lot of stuff that is missing.
It is a big big problem to set up & keep it going. Too many variables - arm + cartridge etc.
You can never get the same set up that you had yesterday & liked to be repeated on any other given day.

Regards,

BHAGWAN69

Yes Bhagwan,

CD is convenient for sure and fine-tuning a TT takes time I agree but once you get it right and settle with it then its hunky dory.

On cd's all I can do is press play and listen(or put upsample on or off) and mostly the results are disappointing but on a TT I can adjust almost every parameter of the music playing by ajdusting the VTF and VTA.

You want an extra detailed presentation just apply a little more force on the counterweight and your in business if you want a laid back presentation get the VTF lower and the VTA at about 22 degree’s+- depending on the cart.

Takes a little time but once one understands what’s going on there’s no turning back to the DARK SIDE (CD's)


Regards,

Satyam.

Hi Bhagwan,
I must confess I only own Meeting by the river and found it very goood. I hear the new Rachmaninoff Symphonies recording which is supposed to be amazing as well (am not so much into Western classical although do not mind it once in a while)

SACD/DVD A spot on. uneccessary waste of media bandwidth. that god they at least went hybrid.

Vinyl. i do think that it makes music especially vocals really good, but its setting, maintainance, storage and just changing a record makes it highly inconvenient .;And then you nhave changes in temparature affecting it as well !

Also its very difficult to get a recording of what you want on vinyl, you usually need to do with what is available (unfortuantely no Copying possible )

If I had a very accurate/Detailsd Pre/ Power and Speaker Vinyl would sound good. but given the fact that at the budget level I am in my amp and speakers already add some colour, i would want my source to be reallly accurate

bhagwan69 schrieb:

CD is good - very very convenient. Potential has not been exploited to its maximum. SACD Sucks - money making racket by Sony & Phillips. DVD-A will never take off - the 'consortium' that is promoting it is not 'flush with funds'. However, a better medium by a mile. Analogue is good - very very satisfiying - at the expense of loss in detail [I am sorry Sbfx]. Sounds very very 'rosy' & 'warm' in the mid-band, but there is a lot of stuff that is missing. It is a big big problem to set up & keep it going. Too many variables - arm + cartridge etc. You can never get the same set up that you had yesterday & liked to be repeated on any other given day. Regards, BHAGWAN69

Arj schrieb:

Hi Bhagwan, Also its very difficult to get a recording of what you want on vinyl, you usually need to do with what is available (unfortuantely no Copying possible )

Hi Arj,

Not true one can get absolutely everything on vinyl doesnt have to make do with whatever is avalible.

www.acousticsounds.com
www.elusivedisc.com

But the best part of this format is I have collected over 500 records at an avg price of only Rs. 10 only I think thats a steal.

Satyam.

Seriously OT here, but…

I speak here of my own experience as TT uder for since early 70’s (infact last 25+ yrs with the same TT setup) and a CDP user since mid 90’s.

TT:

Nothing beats if setup properly. Compared to a regular CDP, you have almost unlimited scope for tweaking your deck. Even mundane stuff such as the location of your TT and a whirling overhead fan can make a discernable difference. You can spend years just setting up your cartridge.. You need to look at Tracking Weight, Arm Height, Alignment, etc. Then you have delectable tings such platter dampening, wirings, correctly matching a phono stage (valve…if you please.. thanks) and so on.

CDP:
I can’t think of any tweaks that an average user might undertake. Of-course if you are DIY minded then several possibilities, often tricky, may be considered. My current CDP is Chinese Shangling which I picked up from Taiwan for approx Rs. 45000. I have already upgraded the valve stage, the PSU (formidable to start with) and such. But now I can’t think of any more changes/mods

The big questions

-do I find a significant difference with my ‘before/after’ Shanling?

Hardly.

But the same amount of tweaking would have resulted in a major difference with the TT setup.

Finally, is TT better than CDP?

It all depends on the genre of music, recording quality, accompanies equipment and your own threshold level of tolerance. I find TT sound to be very alive, involving and charming. TT is best to bring out the note of individual players of small ensemble. If I can close my I can visualise the piano in the centre, the sax a bit on the right but close to the bass. I can visualise the microphone placement such as their heights and gain.

But at the end of the day I would prefer a CDP at least my current possession. I get higher resolution, I am spared all the scratchy accompaniment. I get a consistent sound day after day. Most importantly I am not bothered about a CD getting worn out.

So to each its own poison. I would vote for TT but just about. Mainly due to nostalgic reasons.

Bhagwan69, I am surprised to read your take on SACD, as compared to regular CD . I am pretty much impressed by some of the recordings in pure DSD. The Living Stereo SACDs like Scheherazade, Bolero, Firebird, Bartok are simply amazing. And I am not comparing that to LP..but the CD versions. Even the DSOTM from Pink Floyd sounds fantastic compared to the CD. CDs and CD players as such are getting better, but I support the SACD

Fully agree with Milpai on SACD. Only proper DSD based recordning seem to take full advantage of the format, rather than old formats resampled for SACD (there is still a slight difference in these resampled recordings as well).

And SACD sounds more "analogue" than CD/PCM. With SACD, You feel like missing pieces in the PCM stream is filled up, rather than a fully different kind of sound/tonality from the DVD based formats.

Cheers
Siva.

SACD is a JOKE I'll try and put up a thread from the designers of Ayre and APL hifi who talk in dept technically about the flaws in SACD in fact most of the big guys in digital have started converting DSD to PCM and then up-sampling it to 192/24.


Regards,

Satyam.

The problem has been, as sivat had mentioned of Most record Labels bringing out the same old CDs condverted to SACDs , instead of taking advantage of inherent SACD strengths, which was pretty stupid in the first place
(this was perhaps the biggest joke played on consumers who wanted to move to a better medium.)

I did hear the famous Norah Jones Album on a SACD (On a Philips SACD player) as well as on a CD (Was auditioning the Audio Note DAC) and found the CD version to be much better and surprisingly Smoother. The dealer said it was due to the better DAC.

But the question is if a better DAC/Transport can get better sound out of a CD, then perhaps SACD is really not that great a medium as the SACD player cost around 80% of the DAC. and I am not going to find many New recordings of my favourite cds and there is no way to find out if an SACD is recorded well etc before buying it !
hence decided to go for a better DAC.

On a different note, since we are on the topic, Vinyl arguably does have a better sound and more importantly, during that time engineers made much better recordings. (Vinyl still outsells the combined sales of SACDs and DVDAs !). but i can never get over the hiss and pop..which always gets me irritated and am unable to block out, although i do have friends who listen to Vinyl and somehow they are able to remove their mind from that and enjoy the music. Incidentally the most haunting vocals I have ever heard was on a Avant garde Duo playing a Vinyl album of some chinese singer (Although i did not understand a word, I still cannot forget that feeling)

The only problem I personally have with Vinyl is maintaining the records, especially in India is not easy (cockroaches laying eggs on unused vinyl is the WORST of all) furthermore maintaining and tuning a turntable etc etc are not really easy and one needs to be prepared for that before one gets into it..

screamgigi schrieb:

So to each its own poison. I would vote for TT but just about. Mainly due to nostalgic reasons.

Very good points that you have put in and that last line really puts things in perspective..like so many other countless discussions (Tube Vs SS, Bookshelves Vs FSs, Sub Vs Full range, Cables, power conditioners etc etc )

BTW Could not help noticing your setup.. pretty interesting

Arj schrieb:

But the question is if a better DAC/Transport can get better sound out of a CD, then perhaps SACD is really not that great a medium as the SACD player cost around 80% of the DAC. and I am not going to find many New recordings of my favourite cds and there is no way to find out if an SACD is recorded well etc before buying it ! hence decided to go for a better DAC. On a different note, since we are on the topic, Vinyl arguably does have a better sound and more importantly, during that time engineers made much better recordings. (Vinyl still outsells the combined sales of SACDs and DVDAs !). but i can never get over the hiss and pop..which always gets me irritated and am unable to block out, although i do have friends who listen to Vinyl and somehow they are able to remove their mind from that and enjoy the music. Incidentally the most haunting vocals I have ever heard was on a Avant garde Duo playing a Vinyl album of some chinese singer (Although i did not understand a word, I still cannot forget that feeling)

Agree Arj. All though SACD sounds better, the lack of software and the uncertainty over the format itself does not make it a sound/good investment.

It is better to invest in a better CD player/DAC and make the most of PCM.

Today, Vinyl is definetly a better option than SACD, given the amount of titles that are available. I do not think any Digital media is going to do justice to Miles Davis - "Kind of blue" or work of Jazz giants like Duke/Coltrane/etc or even the old Kishore Kumar numbers ...

BTW have you got ur Wadia 12....how does it sound.

Cheers
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

BTW have you got ur Wadia 12....how does it sound. Cheers Siva.

Yes I have and am really really kicked about it.
It makes a wonderful combination with the Air Port Express which takes the role of the transport ! and I can play songs from my laptop (Of course ripped in Lossless). Hopefully shold prolong the life of CDs..

It is very Detailed (Am hearing lot more instruments.. especially those delicate traingles ) and subtle variation in tone which I had not noticed before. from the discussions I had with Wadia Support and with some other owners. it was a cost no object DAC at that time and the only reason it was lower priced than the 15 was as it does not have a digital volume control which is pretty expensive to have.

Since my Amp is warm and speakers are on the warmish-neutral side I was looking upto the Source to be as detailed as possible and I think that obejective has been met.

With the SI T amp the sound is a bit neutral and analytical but I think once I have the sugden connected in the combination it should be even better .

on the other hand, The SI is Enjoyable all the same. I still feel the T amp is an amazing value for money amp given the cost, as long as you have a sensitive speaker above 87dB it should be the ideal entry system.

there is even an option of Bi Amping with it if your speakers support Biwiring.

sivat schrieb:

I do not think any Digital media is going to do justice to Miles Davis - "Kind of blue" or work of Jazz giants like Duke/Coltrane/etc or even the old Kishore Kumar numbers ... Cheers Siva.

Fully agree there. It is so sad that Kishore, Rafi even Bhupinder Singhs songs are recorded so badly on CDs, i have felt the urge to move to Vinyl only for these old Hindi songs.They are positively bright.

I am sure they were recorded well on Analogue but their digital conversion seems to have introduced a lot of Digital Artefacts giving it that " Digital glare" if I may use reviewers words


BTW have you heard the Elements- Fire, Water, earth, Wind and Space collection , Introduced by Music India sometime in 97-98 ? just realised how good a Soundstageing it has

Dear Members
It is not whether analog,digital,sacd,dvd or whatever else you may have, is better than the other, in an all encompassing manner.The media is only as good as its contents,i.e is recording, mix down, mastering/cutting and manufacturing.The playback setup is the other factor that decides sound quality.
For the sake of arguement, let us assume top notch playback for all formats, with topnotch production values too:I am sure that all these formats will be enjoyable to all of us,and there will be no clear winner,as they each will all have their pros and cons.So in the end the point is there are bad recording and good recordings on all formats:there are good and bad playback systems in all formats,hence this arguement is useless.Use whatever suits your needs best and forget the rest.
Regards Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

there are good and bad playback systems in all formats,hence this arguement is useless.Use whatever suits your needs best and forget the rest. Regards Deaf.

deaf, there is no arguing on the points, but I would classify this as a discussion and in the end we have exchanged enough viewpoints so that we all have a better understanding of all the issues concerned.

if we all agree that, each one of the "Conundrums" in audio can be resolved via "to each his own" and we do not discuss it, there would neither be sharing of Ideas, nor would there be a need for a forum !
To me personally, Maximum learning on Hifi comes via interactions like these with contributions from everyone rather than reading articles in some site

(For eg the one on which this thread is based.. anyone who goes by that would in most probabiity live on his audio island not knowing what is going on Or else give it up totally saying this is all Bull )

BTW on a side note,the name deaf, does no justice to either your knowledge or your interest in music , which from you contributions are pretty extensive

Dear Arj
If that is what you want of me ,I'll be honest,I want DVD with
5 channels of 16 bit 44.1kHz(redbook standards) with visuals or linear notes or video footages.This to better understand the musicians and composers, and their thought processes, while they came up with some idea, which they put to music and words.
That I think is more needed than any format supremacy.My thoughts.
The Deaf deal is a joke,honestly I can hear quite a bit when I want to.
Thanks for your compliments.
Regards Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

Dear Arj I The Deaf deal is a joke,honestly I can hear quite a bit when I want to.

deaf schrieb:

5 channels of 16 bit 44.1kHz(redbook standards) with visuals or linear notes or video footages.This to better understand the musicians and composers, and their thought processes, while they came up with some idea, which they put to music and words. That I think is more needed than any format supremacy.My thoughts.

BTW, that brings us on to a interesting topic of What kind of listening do folks here do.. I think Ill start a Poll on it...

Arj schrieb:

deaf schrieb: Dear Arj I The Deaf deal is a joke,honestly I can hear quite a bit when I want to. deaf schrieb: 5 channels of 16 bit 44.1kHz(redbook standards) with visuals or linear notes or video footages.This to better understand the musicians and composers, and their thought processes, while they came up with some idea, which they put to music and words. That I think is more needed than any format supremacy.My thoughts. BTW, that brings us on to a interesting topic of What kind of listening do folks here do.. I think Ill start a Poll on it...

NAYA REPHERENCE DISCH AYELAHE,NAAM HAI
KAJARA RE.

SUNA KYA?

sbfx schrieb:

SACD is a JOKE I'll try and put up a thread from the designers of Ayre and APL hifi who talk in dept technically about the flaws in SACD in fact most of the big guys in digital have started converting DSD to PCM and then up-sampling it to 192/24. Regards, Satyam.

Agreed that some studios do it. But a lot many come up with pure DSD. I am not sure what player you are using to listen to the SACD. But a nice SACD player can take the sound to a higher level.
Arj, there are many new SACD recordings coming out each week...though few in numbers compared to CD. But same goes for Vinyl. And if we are talking about cost...YES..SACD players are expensive. But so were very good CD players in the initial years when the technology was new. The Best CD player of 10 years back cannot compete with a average CD player of today, because of the improvements in that technology.
Deaf, agreed your point. The only thing I would like to point out that, the audiophile area is NOT dominated by AUDIOPHILES, but by the INDUSTRY. So instead of saying what format is good/bad, a audio enthusiast should support the format that he likes and spread knowledge to others (audio enthusiast/non-enthusiasts) about the positive aspects.

Hi All,
This is a merry discussion. I havent read the article carefully, just glanced through it. My impression is that it belongs to the school of thought which says "If you cant measure it it, then it doesnt exist". While I am sure lots of sales rubbish has fooled people from time to time, I dont buy some of the points the writer asserts. Doesnt cable make a difference. I run my system on cheapo cables and have heard the set through vanden hul lines and it does sound much much smoother, richer and maybe even clearer. If the reviewer cant hear it maybe he has a constraint. My ten year old son can hear the difference between vinyl and CD, and I am not talking about scratches. I believe that there are people in this world who cant trust their senses, in the absence of what they consider to be 'scientific proof'. I can only feel sorry for them, for science is not the only form of 'knowing'. I certainly dont think all audio is a placebo effect.
Purnendu

I agree with purnenthu. Technical specs and measurements will get you just half way there……………. Rest is all tweaking and voicing. Everything including power cords make a difference to the sound provided you have set up your system optimally in a well treated room.

Unless u have a ridiculously expensive and revealing system you won't hear the difference in a 'cheap' shielded power cord and a power cord the size of your arm which costs your house mortgage. frankly, the money is much better spent on speakers, sources and room acoustics..

Personally, i have seen people who claim to hear a difference in cables dismissing those who can't hear the difference with the statement "good for you, you save a lot if u don't hear the difference"..when the truth of the matter is that they stand lose a lot of cash ansd sleep by subjecting themselves like zombies to placebos such as cables..

And this term voicing has been used by a few indiviuals so often in this forum that that is all i read when i read their posts..
"Believe your own ears"..stuff like that just pi$$es me off..

Do they think that we don't know that or do they think that we are deaf and fools to go by what other people say.

Enough with this crap..

we all know to choose what we like..we are intelligent enought to figure that out for ourselves and don't need people to keep reminding us of it like some dumb recording.

Benkenobi

[/quote]Personally, i have seen people who claim to hear a difference in cables dismissing those who can't hear the difference with the statement "good for you, you save a lot if u don't hear the difference"..when the truth of the matter is that they stand lose a lot of cash ansd sleep by subjecting themselves like zombies to placebos such as cables..

And this term voicing has been used by a few indiviuals so often in this forum that that is all i read when i read their posts..
"Believe your own ears"..stuff like that just pi$$es me off..

Do they think that we don't know that or do they think that we are deaf and fools to go by what other people say.

Enough with this crap..

Obi wan remeber the wise words of master Yoda

i know..i know...just feeeling a bit like Luke Skywalker today..

Robert Harleys book on the "Guide to Hi End Audio" makes a very interesting read. there is a statement which goes along the lines of (this is not a quote)

Assembling a System is like making furniture. If the initial woood work/joints/machining to give it the shape and form is equivalent to putting your components together and setting it up. it is the final Varnishing and the 0 size sandpapering which relates to Cables.

I liked this analogy and found it simmiliar to my thoughts and advice given by others that once you have you room, your setup and your matching components, and you are already squeezing the best out of your existing setup, then moving to spending on cables makes sense.

Else it is really not very practical as putting a 5% improvement on a system which is alreadyt 50% compromised is rather frivolous !

I mean unless you are sure that the problem is not with your system or your music, putting a "Coloured" cable for tone control seems to be attacking the wrong problem altogether

In audio "2 negatives doeth not one Positive Make"

Yes.I agree with you.
“God is in the finer details”
Good cabling / power conditioning / isolation / power cord tweaks etc… are for people who have setup their system optimally and have already spend the maximum they can on the main equipment. This is to extract the finer details and to fine-tune the system to sound optimally. System synergy and tweaks is what will get you the magic in audio.
All audio equipment produces distortion. Nothing is neutral. Even in hi-resolution (very low distortion) equipment/cables you need to search and find your kinda stuff to assemble a system which will satisfy YOU. There is no sure prescription based on technical specs. You need to search and tweak yourself believing your own ears.

If one cant tell the difference between cables then thats the cross that person has to bear.....

For the rest of us who can hear differences, we are going to have so much fun

Manek.

Manek schrieb:

If one cant tell the difference between cables then thats the cross that person has to bear..... For the rest of us who can hear differences, we are going to have so much fun Manek.

manek, if i get the drift right, the point above is not about if cables make a difference, but at what point do you actually start spending money on them for tone control

The answer to if they make a difference or not Actually has no significance as each person has his point of view and from what I have seen will not change as the ideas are too ddeply rooted.

Another discussion in Another forum will not make any difference (God Ive had enough readings on this in so many forums !)

..and if it is a cross ot not is again subjective..One way of thinking could be as to why add another parameter when there is enough already in this crazy hobby !!!!

(Imagine every thing from the quality of the recording to the manufacturing batch no of the CD to the Room and cliumate itself !!!!!)

benkenobi schrieb:

Unless u have a ridiculously expensive and revealing system you won't hear the difference in a 'cheap' shielded power cord and a power cord the size of your arm which costs your house mortgage. frankly, the money is much better spent on speakers, sources and room acoustics.. Personally, i have seen people who claim to hear a difference in cables dismissing those who can't hear the difference with the statement "good for you, you save a lot if u don't hear the difference"..when the truth of the matter is that they stand lose a lot of cash ansd sleep by subjecting themselves like zombies to placebos such as cables.. And this term voicing has been used by a few indiviuals so often in this forum that that is all i read when i read their posts.. "Believe your own ears"..stuff like that just pi$$es me off.. Do they think that we don't know that or do they think that we are deaf and fools to go by what other people say. Enough with this crap.. we all know to choose what we like..we are intelligent enought to figure that out for ourselves and don't need people to keep reminding us of it like some dumb recording. Benkenobi

I once had a conversation with a very seasoned audiophile. He has been in hi-end audio for at least 25 years He is pretty well off and can afford any fancy / esoteric stuff he wants. He has changed at least a dozen amps, speakers, sources, cables and finally settled down with something which I didn’t like all that much. It was not my kinda sound. I asked him, Is this ultimate? He said. No. “This is what I like “. This is my kinda hi-end / hi- resolution sound. This is what gives me Goosebumps and I firmly believe this is what hi-end should sound like. But this is my belief. At this price point, there are quite a few combinations which sounds pretty good which may appeal to you better. So even at that level, it is all very personal. You need to search and find what you like based on your EARS. A dynaudio / bryston combo may appeal to some while a cadence hybrid speaker / valve amp combo may be the choice for somebody else. Remember these are guys who have seen it all and know the real “INSIDE STUFF” in audio. They deal with it on an every day basis. There is a reason why most advanced and seasoned audiophiles who have invested a bomb on their personal systems after years of research do not like to entertain too many visitors. They do not care for the “subjective remarks” made by newbies or people with different tastes. They are too busy entertaining themselves with the system of their choice………so voicing and personal preferences based on your own “EARS” is what matters the most. In fact those are the only factors which matter once you reach a certain level in audio. Once you buy your kinda equipment, you make it disappear using the right cables and tweaks and music will flow and your equipment will produce the magic it is capable of.

hey square.....

i totally agree with u....
i might like something which others wont like as is the same with the different tastes in the genre of musics......

edges

square_wave schrieb:

I once had a conversation with a very seasoned audiophile. He has been in hi-end audio for at least 25 years He is pretty well off and can afford any fancy / esoteric stuff he wants. He has changed at least a dozen amps, speakers, sources, cables and finally settled down with something which I didn’t like all that much. It was not my kinda sound. I asked him, Is this ultimate? He said. No. “This is what I like “. This is my kinda hi-end / hi- resolution sound. This is what gives me Goosebumps and I firmly believe this is what hi-end should sound like. But this is my belief. At this price point, there are quite a few combinations which sounds pretty good which may appeal to you better. So even at that level, it is all very personal. You need to search and find what you like based on your EARS. A dynaudio / bryston combo may appeal to some while a cadence hybrid speaker / valve amp combo may be the choice for somebody else. Remember these are guys who have seen it all and know the real “INSIDE STUFF” in audio. They deal with it on an every day basis. There is a reason why most advanced and seasoned audiophiles who have invested a bomb on their personal systems after years of research do not like to entertain too many visitors. They do not care for the “subjective remarks” made by newbies or people with different tastes. They are too busy entertaining themselves with the system of their choice………so voicing and personal preferences based on your own “EARS” is what matters the most. In fact those are the only factors which matter once you reach a certain level in audio. Once you buy your kinda equipment, you make it disappear using the right cables and tweaks and music will flow and your equipment will produce the magic it is capable of.

we all know that..u don't need to be a seasoned audiophile of 25 yeasrs to know that ..
i can see nothing new in what you have said..other than make a case where a person took 25 years to know what he wants..and putting that as a valid reason to look at voicing and believeing your own ears....

I guess that's all some people know.

Benkenobi

Since we are starting to get into specifics..
Let me just say that i don't need to tell you the fundamental flaws existing in the way we audition systems..
It is always a mismatch of componenets and it is not done in your living room..

Teh best you can hope for is that you gauge the system in different places someimtes using different sources and also when u are in different moods...
so u finally bring it home set it up and then say ...hey! that's not what i expected to hear....this is usually the response of many people..
you then go online looking for tweaks and stuff..
invariably people are led to believe(by unscroupolous saleman and their cronies) that if they invest a coulpe of hundred dollars on cables the sound will be transformed imedialtey and it will be like Dinoysys himself will serve you liqour..

we don't need people telling over and over again what we know and what we eventually do when we buy a system..
if u want to help then u can do so by posting info on how exactly you can acieve voicing and other tweaks that will help others in experimenting with their setups..

Benkenobi

Square Wave/ Benks.. Cool it guys

square_wave schrieb:

I once had a conversation with a very seasoned audiophile. He has been in hi-end audio for at least 25 years He is pretty well off and can afford any fancy / esoteric stuff he wants. He has changed at least a dozen amps, speakers, sources, cables and finally settled down with something which I didn’t like all that much. It was not my kinda sound. I asked him, Is this ultimate? He said. No. “This is what I like “. This is my kinda hi-end / hi- resolution sound. This is what gives me Goosebumps and I firmly believe this is what hi-end should sound like. But this is my belief. At this price point, there are quite a few combinations which sounds pretty good which may appeal to you better. So even at that level, it is all very personal. You need to search and find what you like based on your EARS. A dynaudio / bryston combo may appeal to some while a cadence hybrid speaker / valve amp combo may be the choice for somebody else. Remember these are guys who have seen it all and know the real “INSIDE STUFF” in audio. They deal with it on an every day basis. There is a reason why most advanced and seasoned audiophiles who have invested a bomb on their personal systems after years of research do not like to entertain too many visitors. They do not care for the “subjective remarks” made by newbies or people with different tastes. They are too busy entertaining themselves with the system of their choice………so voicing and personal preferences based on your own “EARS” is what matters the most. In fact those are the only factors which matter once you reach a certain level in audio. Once you buy your kinda equipment, you make it disappear using the right cables and tweaks and music will flow and your equipment will produce the magic it is capable of.

LOL

Trust your ears only…..HAHAHA….Dude, you’ll be the death of me…..

So whose ears does everyone else buy their audio gear for…their neighbours?

Benkenobi is right… you seem to be too repetetive... Maybe better if you change your name to Broken Record….

Hahahaha

benks,
It does not take anybody 25 years to learn the importance of looking for the right voicing in your equipment. Nowhere in my post did I imply that. Clever people take less than 6 months. But believing in your ears takes some time and experience……………….This is the most important quality and this is the toughest one to develop. It takes years for a normal audiophile. Both these qualities in addition to understanding technical specs complete the picture……….. In most case when it comes to hi-res equipment “ good tech specs” is taken for granted. Most seasoned audiophiles do not bother. They just plug it in and if it delivers, they like it else it goes back to the carton it came in.

Hello mr Indianduke………I suggest you go back and read bank’s post and you will know why I posted what I posted.
And benks, I am not interested in another mundane discussion with you.

square_wave schrieb:

benks, It does not take anybody 25 years to learn the importance of looking for the right voicing in your equipment. Nowhere in my post did I imply that. Clever people take less than 6 months. But believing in your ears takes some time and experience……………….This is the most important quality and this is the toughest one to develop. It takes years for a normal audiophile. Both these qualities in addition to understanding technical specs complete the picture……….. In most case when it comes to hi-res equipment “ good tech specs” is taken for granted. Most seasoned audiophiles do not bother. They just plug it in and if it delivers, they like it else it goes back to the carton it came in.

Absolutely agree it takes a while for one to understand what he really likes and is looking for in his setup after the priorities are understood then start auditioning maximum amount of equipment possible and see where it goes from there.

Regards,

Satyam.

[quote="square_wave"]
And benks, I am not interested in another mundane discussion with you.[/quote]

Well FYI, mundane is what all your postings are..and i don't want to have a discussion with you..what made you think i want to have a discussion with infantile peabrained wasted youths like you..This ain't a pissing contest..its only you who's doing it against the wind.
this ain't a discusssion..am Telling you..you don't have to act like a high priest here..like as if ur the only guy who has 'trained' his ear and we all don't know 'shit'.

Wow ! what a guy !