Toshiba Z-series, 24p compatible?

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maxjon
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#1 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 11:43

Hello!

I hope it's OK that I post this message in english, since my german is non-existant.

I do not personally own a Toshiba Z-series LCD, but I'm really interested in buying one. I've read tons of info, reviews and forums. It seems like a VERY good LCD, but I have one issue that I cannot seem to get a straight answer too. How does the Z-series handle 24p playback?

I've read lots of reviews, and my favorite is HDTV Test, a site from the UK. Read test

here.

"I straightaway noticed a subtle judder in the opening scene as the camera panned slowly around the living room where Michael Newman (Adam Sandler) was sleeping (00:59). This judder looked telecine in character, so while the Toshiba 47Z3030D accepted 1080p/24 signal from the PS3, the television appeared to convert it to 60Hz rather than a multiple of 24Hz if I did not activate any MCFI processing."

I've asked on other forums, and the following theory has risen.

1080p/24 playback:
- M100: OFF. Film Stabilization: OFF.
Judder, looks like 3:2 pulldown. The tv converts to 1080/60.
- M100: ON. Film Stabilization: Standard.
Not 100% smooth, but it looks like the 5:5 pulldown is activated. Not sure if picture is being interpolated.
- M100: ON. Film Stabilization: Smooth.
Very smooth. By the looks interpolated picture.

A good BluRay/HD-DVD to spot interpolation is the Mission Impossible 3 movie. Check for the scenes with the Vatican wall, supposedly it will produce many artifacts when using interpolation.

Anyone that could test this?

Again sorry, I can't speak german.
Regards,
//Max

M1kromann
Neuling

#2 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 14:41

hi,

the Z-Series makes a 5:5 pulldown.
since it supports up to 120 Hertz, it multiples the 24Hz
into 120Hz, so you got an effective 5:5 pulldown.
The Z-Series can handle 1080p24 directly without interpolation. But beware that the X-Series cannot.

I haven't got the movie, therefor I cannot test it,
but the other movies on blu-ray look brilliant.
And I haven't heard of a single user on this forum, who
isn't overwhelmed of the capability in watching 1080p24 material.

Hopefully I was able to help you.
If not, just ask straight-away.

Regards,
Mikro

maxjon
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#3 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 15:04

Hi!

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand that most people are overwhelmed by the "1080p/24 playback", the Toshiba does a wonderful job. It has probably the most advanced video processing than any other LCD on the market.

(FS:Film Stabilization)

Bare in mind the following, everyone that has pointed out the smoothness and 'perfect' playback of 1080p/24 is using the FS-features. Recently people are starting to notice the artifacts of interpolation when using this feature.

- So when does the Toshiba use its 5:5 pulldown?
Since there are reports of judder when not using M100+FS, we can presume it's not in effect.
When using M100+FS:Standard, it does judder a bit. Does the Z3030 interpolate or is this the true 5:5 pulldown?
When using M100+FS:Smooth, it does interpolate. Most people concur.

Conclusion: If M100+FS:Standard is a true 5:5 pulldown, then it's OK.

But if FS:Standard is an interpolated mode we can conclude that the Toshiba doesn't do 1080p/24 at all. This would mean the ZF series as well and that the XF model can't handle true 1080p/24 and only be compatible (as the X-series).

It's also a marketing scam, since the 5:5 pulldown would be a lie. False math: 1080p24->1080p/60->1080p/120 = 5:5? No.

//Max

achim-martin
Stammgast

#4 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 15:09

When I watch a HD movie with my PS3 I have activated the 24p in the playstation and this gives me a fairly good result in my 47Z LCD. Its just a multiplication of pix as my former writer just explained.
Right now I have activated the 100 Hz and filmstabilization: smooth. This does some interpolation of frames - yet I don't believe its automatically doing this with original 24p material, but all others - like from DVDs or tv. Am not sure about that, though.
The interpolation works very well without that blurry video look of some Sonys, who are overdoing it, and its not juddering like some sharps do.

However, the Z Series does one of the best smooth presentations of all. Philips current tv-generation does it likewise, I think, but they have other disadvantages...

If you discover a very slight juddering with 24p material then its cause 24p are on the edge of smooth playback. Its like in a cinema. All films I have seen so far its working fine.

maxjon
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#5 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 15:51

Does it interpolate when using "Film Stabilization: Standard"?

achim-martin schrieb:

kalle1111
Inventar

#6 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 16:49

maxjon schrieb:

Does it interpolate when using "Film Stabilization: Standard"?

maxjon
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#7 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 22:09

Hi kalle!

Is it easy to tell a difference when using FS:Smooth compared to FS:Standard, is it obvious that FS:Standard does not interpolate?

achim-martin
Stammgast

#8 erstellt: 28. Jan 2008, 22:31

You can most definately see the difference. Toshiba has done a great job with that smooth interpolation. Three pix original, two pix interpolated, two pix original, two pix interpolated, three pix original...and so forth. I believe its somewhat like this and the result ist a sharp picture even in action scenes.
With a tv as this you can see mistakes of a cameraman, but if the quality is good, the result is brilliant, too.

maxjon
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#9 erstellt: 29. Jan 2008, 19:31

achim-martin schrieb:

Yes, the Toshiba certainly does a wonderful job when interpolating, like when using Film Stabilization: Smooth.

But, what I want is un-interpolated 24p playback. Since the LCD does 1080/60 conversion when M100 feature is off, the question is if "Film Stabilization: Standard" does the 5:5 pulldown being mentioned. 5:5 does no interpolation, question is when it's in effect.

So far only a few people has pointed this out, I want more 'proof'...

//M

achim-martin
Stammgast

#10 erstellt: 30. Jan 2008, 14:39

So far for what I've heard from Toshiba themselves, the interpolation does not work with 24p material. When you most definately give out a 24p material then the smooth stabilizer is not in effect. The Toshiba lcd recognizes the 24p incoming signal and just multiplies the frames by 5.

You can see the difference in those certain scenes where you can see a very slight judder while playing back 24p material, unlike a smoother picture when giving the signal out as regular 60 or 50hz. You can choose that in the PS3 menue and compare yourself.

Either way, what counts is the result and thats fine anyhow.

maxjon
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#11 erstellt: 30. Jan 2008, 17:03

achim-martin schrieb:

It does interpolate 24p material when using M100 + Film Stabilization: Smooth, this is most certain.
When all features is off (M100:OFF, Film Stabilization:OFF) the picture judders with the same pattern as 1080/60. That's why HDTV Test wrote about it, it converts. Question still remains, when is 5:5 pulldown in effect? Is it when M100 + Film Stabilization: Standard, is on?

This is why I ask about the 'interpolation test' above.
//M

achim-martin
Stammgast

#12 erstellt: 30. Jan 2008, 18:47

Filmstabilization "smooth" and 100Hz are two things. So I leave the 100 Hz on, but still think it only does the 5:5 pulldown when 24p material is there.

But seriously, since the result of common DVDs or BluRays in 24p or 60Hz is so good, without a soap effect etc., I don't really care THAT much, if its been interpolated or not. Also I'm not so sure if that pattern you were talking about is really the same. The juddering is a little different I think.

The result is what counts. Maybe someone will be able to give eternal answers to this...

maxjon
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#13 erstellt: 30. Jan 2008, 19:32

achim-martin schrieb:

Film Stabilization is grayed out if M100 is OFF, this indicates some kind of relation.

When the LCD is fed 24p material and M100 is OFF the LCD does 3:2 judder. Engage M100 and the judder will remain, Film Stabilization is un-locked though. When engaging Film Stabilization the LCD handles the signal differently for each mode Standard / Smooth.

Film Stabilization
Standard: clean 5:5 pulldown, or interpolation?
Smooth: Definitely some kind of interpolation.

I'm asking the same question over and over.. heheh, what does "Standard" do? Not even Toshiba support answers. I hear different opinions from different users.. I have not yet made a conclusion since no one has really given a good report on a decent test.

//M

Bösling
Ist häufiger hier

#14 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 09:53

Maxjon is absolutely right. With every other setting except smooth stabilization the film is jerking. Meanwhile I bet that the praised 5:5 pulldown is only working (if ever) with the "smooth" setting, every other configuration makes 3:2-judder (or an even worse ratio).
But the result with setting "smooth" is awesome in my opinion.

I'm also woundering what the standard-setting does. For me it makes no visible difference between M100-OFF and Film Stabilization set to standard.

[Beitrag von Bösling am 31. Jan 2008, 10:00 bearbeitet]

maxjon
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#15 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 10:20

Bösling schrieb:

Film Stabilization: Smooth, is not 5:5 pulldown, it's interpolated.

Bösling
Ist häufiger hier

#16 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 10:41

maxjon schrieb:

Bösling schrieb:

Film Stabilization: Smooth, is not 5:5 pulldown, it's interpolated.

Could be both, couldn't it? 24 original images every 1/24s and 96 interpolated images between them.

spielfuehrer
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#17 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 11:18

ladz just a short question.
you talkin about Z series in general. is the 46ZF355D one of them ? i am about to buy one, thats why i am asking.

Bösling
Ist häufiger hier

#18 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 11:42

spielfuehrer schrieb:

ladz just a short question.
you talkin about Z series in general. is the 46ZF355D one of them ? i am about to buy one, thats why i am asking.

AFAIK the ZF-series (e.g. 46ZF355D) has the same feature-set as the Z-series (e.g. 47Z3030D). Only the panel-type is different.

spielfuehrer
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#19 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 12:14

thx for the answer !

so a different panel cannot be the reason for different 24p handling ?

achim-martin
Stammgast

#20 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 13:16

The software is the same.

[Beitrag von achim-martin am 31. Jan 2008, 13:17 bearbeitet]

maxjon
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#21 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 13:36

Bösling schrieb:

maxjon schrieb:

Bösling schrieb:

Film Stabilization: Smooth, is not 5:5 pulldown, it's interpolated.

Could be both, couldn't it? 24 original images every 1/24s and 96 interpolated images between them.

Well, not really. It either does or doesn't interpolate, but the function (Film Stabilization: Smooth) could act different depending on what material it's fed.. dvd or 24p (bluray), this I don't know.

If you have Mission Impossible 3 you could do the interpolation-test I mentioned above, it would reveal a great deal about this LCD. Testing both Standard/Smooth, check for interpolation by the Vatican wall.

No one seems to have this movie in HD/BluRay (very important it's the 24p feed)!
//M

achim-martin
Stammgast

#22 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 13:46

Well, Mission Impossible runs on Premiere Pay tv, so no one really needs it to buy separately. Of course they don't send in 24p...

maxjon
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#23 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 13:49

achim-martin schrieb:

Well, Mission Impossible runs on Premiere Pay tv, so no one really needs it to buy separately. Of course they don't send in 24p...

Yep, and that's the whole point of the test...

//M

Bösling
Ist häufiger hier

#24 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 14:04

achim-martin schrieb:

Well, Mission Impossible runs on Premiere Pay tv, so no one really needs it to buy separately. Of course they don't send in 24p...

Not everyone has pay-tv. And AFAIK premiere-hd does not send in 1080p. Two reasons for buying the blu-ray/hd-dvd.

kalle1111
Inventar

#25 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 14:40

And no one asked Toshiba?

maxjon
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#26 erstellt: 31. Jan 2008, 14:46

kalle1111 schrieb:

And no one asked Toshiba?

I've asked them twice, very specific questions, but they never get it right.

maxjon
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#27 erstellt: 02. Feb 2008, 15:26

This is a post from a UK forum.

Okay, just had another marathon session with Toshiba's CS line, and this is the upshot.

* The 42Z3030D FS (Film Stabilization) modes are interpolated - both standard and smooth. This is the third time this has been confirmed. This time I made sure they checked with engineers twice.

* According to Toshiba engineers - and this was checked twice during the phone call - the 42Z3030D 5/5 pulldown mode is automatically engaged when a 24Hz source is detected. This should override any of the other settings made by the user. No user intervention is required.

I asked to speak to an engineer directly and was told that this was not possible because they were about to go home (it was a long phone call). I was told that if I called back on Monday they would make an exception and speak to me directly. They also said that if the TV didn't do what it said it did (i.e. 5/5 pulldown), they would be getting sued. I mentioned this thread and the fact that some people might be considering just that To be fair, the guy I spoke to was quite knowledgable and knew of these forums.

I was also told that the engineers said you will get judder on fast pans because of the way 'Hollywood' films are shot. An example used was The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift (what taste). I assured them that what I am seeing with M100/FS off is not 24fps judder, but 2/3 pulldown. If it was just judder cased by low frame rates it should be eliminated by the 5/5 pulldown - that's the whole point of it. Films aren't projected at 24fps in cinemas, they're projected at 48/72fps (or so every knowledgable person I've spoken to says).

Having compared PAL, NTSC and HD versions of Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer I can confirm that the PAL (50Hz/25fps) version was smooth on pans, whereas the NSTC and HD versions exhibited the same sort of judder, no doubt because of the 2/3 pulldown being applied to display them at 60Hz/30fps. This was with FS/M100 turned off, so no interpolation

I was told I might have a faulty set, but I am not the only one mentioning this issue in this thread. In fact, it was also mentioned in the review of the 47" version on HDTVTest. As far as I'm concerned, if no one at Toshiba can explain to me how this TV is performing 5/5 pulldown and still exhibiting noticeable judder on slow pans (and I'm talking lots of films) I will be taking further action. I bought the TV because of the 5/5 pulldown feature, and if it doesn't have it I feel that I'm entitled to do something about it. At the very least, Toshiba should stop marketing it as such. I would have gone for a Sony if I had known this, and ended up with better blacks to boot.

It would be helpful if those of you who have noticed the problem could post again, so we have an accurate list. Once again, the fact that I have been told on three (four if you count the two times I was told in this conversation) that FS mode uses interpolation discounts the theory that you have to manually activate 5/5 mode. If it is supposed to be automatic upon detection of of a 24Hz source, it isn't working properly. While the interpolation is better than most, it is still interpolation. The TV is advertised as performing true 5/5 pulldown on 24Hz sources and as far as I can tell it doesn't.

It seems like Toshiba has problems.
//M

achim-martin
Stammgast

#28 erstellt: 02. Feb 2008, 22:27

Guys, it seems not like Toshiba has problems but you. Seriously, if one plays a 24p film from the PS3 there is not a 2:3 pulldown judder, but only a very slight 24 frames/sec. judder, that is to be expected. Its a steady slight judder with the same pattern.
Watching an ordinary paytv-film in PAL or a NTSC DVD activates the filmstabilization and sends out a smooth, interpolated but not soapy picture, as some Sonys do for example.
Also the effect from some Sharps is not appearing, thank God.

This seems more like a theoretical discussion but not like a real problem for all of us users here.

maxjon
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#29 erstellt: 03. Feb 2008, 10:52

achim-martin schrieb:

Are you using any M100 or Film Stabilization features when you playback your 24p material?
//M

achim-martin
Stammgast

#30 erstellt: 03. Feb 2008, 12:48

Ok, now I've checked with two movies. Parfume and a war film on BluRay. Had activated 24p in the PS3. It doesn't say on the package if its really 24p though.

Here's the result as far as I have experienced it: "Kinomodus" or "Cinemamdus" was deactivated in the Toshiba menue. But 100Hz and filmstabilisation were both activated black.

Filmstabilisation normal was a slight steady judder, looked like 24p, "standart" was not so steady so I assume it was trying to make some sort of 3:2 pulldown or whatever, but smooth or "sanft" was the best.

Again, I am not certain, if the material was really 24p. But all this is a theoretical question. Even people who intend to see original 24p frames in the 5:5 pulldown, won't see it exactly as in a cinema, cause compressed in a 47 " LCD it has a different appearance than on a huge cinema screen.

My recommendation is: Philips or Toshiba both do a great job with their interpolations. Just leave it as smooth and you'll be more than happy...

[Beitrag von achim-martin am 03. Feb 2008, 15:00 bearbeitet]

Bösling
Ist häufiger hier

#31 erstellt: 04. Feb 2008, 10:21

achim-martin schrieb:

This seems more like a theoretical discussion but not like a real problem for all of us users here.

Thats right.
But if Toshiba says, that the z-series does a 5:5 pulldown and in fact this is not the case (only interpolating), they proclaim features for their products which they don't support in effect.
In other words, they would be telling lies to their customers.

[Beitrag von Bösling am 04. Feb 2008, 10:21 bearbeitet]

achim-martin
Stammgast

#32 erstellt: 04. Feb 2008, 13:27

No, you're pulling up something without proof.

Filmstabilisation standart looks like 24p 5:5
normal looks like the old 3:2 pulldown
smooth looks interpolated

So it does look like the ingenieurs have implemented it that way.

Of course one could change the settings in the PS3, but then one doesn't really know, if the PS3 makes some inefficient calculations, so I just leave it as: PS3 giving out 24p if material provides this.

That way its perfect either way.

kalle1111
Inventar

#33 erstellt: 04. Feb 2008, 15:06

achim-martin schrieb:

Filmstabilisation standart looks like 24p 5:5
normal looks like the old 3:2 pulldown
smooth looks interpolated

This are exactly my experiences. I choose "smooth" for every source and I´m very happy with it.